Saurfang as a new Warchief perhaps? No?

[Zulkhan]

And his only achievement post 4.0 is exiling a group of Tauren because they wanted to defend themselves after getting firebombed.

Just to be fair, it was more about vengeance than self-defense. Vendetta Point is quite an unmistakable name choice for an outpost.

My guess is that Baine was afraid that more of his people would have gave in to that sentiment and ceaslessly thrown themselves against the Alliance. On the other hand yeah, I also believe he genuinely thought peaceful resolution could have been a thing because Jaina was nice to him and all that jazz.

That doesn't sound like Baine in the slightest.

Well, when it comes to martial prowess he's acknowledged to be quite terrifying. If we mean strength in terms of leadership...yeah, between Magatha trying to take over Thunder Bluff and later the war against the Alliance, particularly against the very Alliance leader who helped him retake Thunder Bluff in the first place, his rule started off as quite clumsy and flawed.

That being said, it's still somewhat better than Anduin, who during the same time he served as nothing but the Alliance's damsel in distress, facing literally no responsibility whatsoever and trying, for the first time, to be somewhat useful in MoP.

Also, Vol'jin's spirititual manifestation coming from a totemic bonfire would be the best Warchief.

You mean Vol'jin will abandon his mortal past and ascend to Basic Campfire status?

Now I understand. The rumors about Basic Campfire back when Garrosh became Warchief were actually a prophecy.

[Mehrunes]

2) Baine didn't do anything in that raid.

That's not true. He exposed his mental health issues (the delusions that Garrosh betrayed Cairne) to the world during SoO.

[Zulkhan]

That's not true. He exposed his mental health issues (the delusions that Garrosh betrayed Cairne) to the world during SoO.

Be careful, he said "the raid". Baine made his spectacular show in Razor Hill.

I have to admit it though, having Baine shouting to Garrosh "You betrayed my father!" within the raid itself would have been a funny moment, one of those moments where everyone (friends and foes alike) stay silent for a few seconds before nodding and doing a reassuring smile altogether.

[Ash123]

Be careful, he said "the raid". Baine made his spectacular show in Razor Hill.

I have to admit it though, having Baine shouting to Garrosh "You betrayed my father!" within the raid itself would have been a funny moment, one of those moments where everyone (friends and foes alike) stay silent for a few seconds before nodding and doing a reassuring smile altogether.

I thought Baine knew the detail of his father's death....

[Zulkhan]

I thought Baine knew the detail of his father's death....

Kosak tried to justify the statement by denying that very fact. Top notch writing.

[allanon3031]

Saurfang should back Baine for warchief.

[ello]

Just to be fair, it was more about vengeance than self-defense. Vendetta Point is quite an unmistakable name choice for an outpost.

It was self-defense. Those Tauren weren't planning on taking a Zepplin to EK and launching an invasion of Stormwind, they were out to the attack the Alliance that was already besieging Mulgore, and Baine wanted to hide behind a wall.

My guess is that Baine was afraid that more of his people would have gave in to that sentiment and ceaslessly thrown themselves against the Alliance. On the other hand yeah, I also believe he genuinely thought peaceful resolution could have been a thing because Jaina was nice to him and all that jazz.

I respect this viewpoint, but it doesn't make me feel any better about Baine. At best he was naive and insensitive to his own people, at worst he was a spineless unwitting traitor. I actually lean towards the latter. Mainly because he never vocalized any sympathy to his people, any strategic reason for not retaliating, or any master diplomatic plan to end the war, he just waved his hands said "It was a legitimate military target" and forgot about it. Didn't Vol'jin call him out on this? I think that says a lot.

Do note that the war was already underway at this point. It happened after the Cataclysm so Wrathgate, Honor's Stand, Gilneas and Ashenvale had already happened by this point. It makes the whole thing even more ridiculous imo. If a Tauren village getting mercilessly slaughtered isn't the time to act, when is?

[Lazuli]

Galliwyx will be next Warchief, so Horde can keep their track record of worst possible choices for Warchief.

lmao that'll be the day

[mizeri]

no,because i dont want blizz to kill him off.

[Aoyi]

I like Saurfang, but the poor guy needs a break. He might finally get his warrior’s death by the end of the expansion, but if not, I hope they just let him retire. He’s been through enough now.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

To those who think less of him because of his age just think about what he's accomplished in his life. It's not like he was doing nothing the entire time and he seems to be far from finished seeing as how he was on the front lines at the Battle for Lordaeron. Veteran of three wars, Supreme Command of the Might of Kalimdor which represented both Alliance and Horde, High Overlord of the Warsong Offensive, Leader of the Horde Expedition and the list continues.

This isn't any old Orc who's gone senile and yelling at Orclings to get off his lawn. This dude encompasses the strength of the Horde, the pragmatism of a leader and the respect of both factions. Shit, even Varian who was all about hating Orcs in WotLK was able to show him the respect he deserved when he went to collect his son's corpse.

Dude's a damn legend with the bonus being that he doesn't have someone like Genn up his ass all the time. He may not have wanted anything more while in Northrend but a ton of shit has gone down since then and he's one of the few who is capable of restoring any semblance of prosperity and honor to the Horde with no ulterior motives or actively shitting on the Alliance.

They have a long way to go to prop Baine or even Lor'themar up as Warchief should anything happen to Sylvanas but then again they pretty much just hand-waved her on to the throne so anything is possible.

[onesBronson]

If they wanted to make Saurfang warchief, they've been beating around the bush for years.

[Zulkhan]

It was self-defense. Those Tauren weren't planning on taking a Zepplin to EK and launching an invasion of Stormwind, they were out to the attack the Alliance that was already besieging Mulgore, and Baine wanted to hide behind a wall.

Back in Cataclysm yes, most of the Tauren attacks were Vietcong-like assaults meant to drive the Alliance away but the Tauren of Vendetta Point desired, indeed, vengeance first and foremost (if I remember correctly the outpost was made from all those who lost one or more loved ones in the Taurajo firebombing).

The impression I got by reading Tides of War is that the war reached a stalemate of sort and hostilities weren't as burning as they were in Cataclysm (the book arguably took place after all the completed questing of every Cata zone, Horde and Alliance sides) but clearly those Tauren who desired vengeance for what the Alliance did on Taurajo couldn't let it go and kept launching relentless attacks to claim more and more Alliance's lives. That's why I suppose Baine, with that "soft" exile of his, hoped to both demotivate his people to follow that example (and prevent situations like this to happen again) and to not escalate things to the point that a diplomatic resolution to the war became impossible to achieve (something he obviously considered possible to achieve otherwise, given his friendly relationship with Jaina and Jaina's own likely collaboration on reaching that goal).

Needless to say, Garrosh's intention to rekindle hostilities and escalate the war to full global scale pretty much dropped a massive shit on that.

I respect this viewpoint, but it doesn't make me feel any better about Baine. At best he was naive and insensitive to his own people, at worst he was a spineless unwitting traitor. I actually lean towards the latter.

I personally lean towards the first and even him looking "insensitive" was kind of the result of him trying to act like a leader doing unpopular choices to pursue what he thought was a "greater good". Yes, there's no escape from the fact that doing what he did really makes it look like he didn't care enough about the losses some of his people suffered at Taurajo. On the other hand, caving in to vengeance surely looked like an hindrance to his goal of putting an end to the war by a more reasonable solution.

Can't say I wholeheartedly agree with his stance and is legitimately hard to sympathize with it. Nonetheless, the burden of leadership was on him and he had to do something. Good or bad decision, I have little doubts that's what MoP Anduin would have done himself if he was in Baine's own shoes (the guy fucking vouched for the Horde to enter the Vale of Eternal Blossoms after all).

Mainly because he never vocalized any sympathy to his people, any strategic reason for not retaliating, or any master diplomatic plan to end the war, he just waved his hands said "It was a legitimate military target" and forgot about it. Didn't Vol'jin call him out on this? I think that says a lot.

Vol'jin simply couldn't get Baine's apparent forgiving and rationalizing stance, which makes sense if we consider the fact that Vol'jin always had an hate boner for humans bigger than Garrosh's and couldn't give two shits about Theramore and related stuff.

It's worth saying though that once pressured by Vol'jin, Baine declares that Northwatch had no civilian personnel and wouldn't have held back against them. So it once again comes down to a matter of "honorable combat" mixed with his naive delusion that peace was achievable as long Garrosh was somewhat kept in check. In a twisted way, it's very similar to how Anduin always tried to hold Varian back.

All in all, the problem is not really with Baine himself but the character archetype, which is the same of Anduin: the too-nice guy trying to find non-violent solutions to all problems, until he starts to feel irritating and unrelatable. And it's somewhat a pity to me, because there are a few things of Baine's character that I even like but he needs to grow into a fully developed, responsible leader who learns to value his people and responsibilities over his idealism. On that aspect, I don't think Baine is completely lost.

[Lahis]

Grommash Hellscream for Warchief!

Lady liiadrin is more prominent then most of the alliance leaders......

Then the princess and soon to be queen of the zandalari trolls.

Thalyssra of the nightborne....

Mula highmountain

Pretty far off from "the only one"

Liadrin is the only one of those who is older than "last exansion".

[ello]

Back in Cataclysm yes, most of the Tauren attacks were Vietcong-like assaults meant to drive the Alliance away but the Tauren of Vendetta Point desired, indeed, vengeance first and foremost (if I remember correctly the outpost was made from all those who lost one or more loved ones in the Taurajo firebombing).

The impression I got by reading Tides of War is that the war reached a stalemate of sort and hostilities weren't as burning as they were in Cataclysm (the book arguably took place after all the completed questing of every Cata zone, Horde and Alliance sides) but clearly those Tauren who desired vengeance for what the Alliance did on Taurajo couldn't let it go and kept launching relentless attacks to claim more and more Alliance's lives.

As I understand it, Tides of War took place after the event of the Cataclysm, as in Deathwing broke free, but not necessarily after his defeat. In any case, I never got the impression that the factions were at peace, but rather some players such as Baine and Jaina believed peace could be achieved soon(which I found naive because of the focusing iris theft).

I'll be willing to meet you halfway, it was emotionally driven by vengeance, but was also a reasonable response to the situation. Even if it was somewhat driven by vengeance it wasn't for naught, the Alliance were an active threat at this point in the war. Baine was against even a modicum of retaliation against the active alliance aggression.

Others were still aching from the attack. He could not condemn these people. Baine did not rule with a tight grasp; the tauren followed him willingly and with love—perhaps mostly out of respect for his father, but with openness in their hearts nonetheless. Those who disagreed with Baine’s decisions, like many Grimtotem, or the tauren who chose to strike back at the Alliance from Vendetta Point, were expelled from Thunder Bluff

Golden, Christie. World of Warcraft: Jaina Proudmoore: Tides of War (p. 20). Pocket Books. Kindle Edition.

So not only were the people at Vendetta point exiled, but also people who simply disagreed with Baine's decisions. That's pretty crazy to me.

Can't say I wholeheartedly agree with his stance and is legitimately hard to sympathize with it. Nonetheless, the burden of leadership was on him and he had to do something. Good or bad decision, I have little doubts that's what MoP Anduin would have done himself if he was in Baine's own shoes (the guy fucking vouched for the Horde to enter the Vale of Eternal Blossoms after all).

I'll retract "worse than Anduin". That was probably overly harsh.

Vol'jin simply couldn't get Baine's apparent forgiving and rationalizing stance, which makes sense if we consider the fact that Vol'jin always had an hate boner for humans bigger than Garrosh's and couldn't give two shits about Theramore and related stuff.

I think Vol'jin and the Tauren Baine exiled had a much better read of the global political climate than Baine did.

All in all, the problem is not really with Baine himself but the character archetype, which is the same of Anduin: the too-nice guy trying to find non-violent solutions to all problems.

Yeah, you make a good point. I think I'm fairly biased here because I have a tough time getting into this particular archtype. IMO the only Warcraft characters that managed to pull it off without looking woefully naive were WC3- WOTLK Thrall and Jaina. Baine is supposed to be this diplomatic character, but he hasn't even shown profficiency in that. He had no master plan to bring a resolution through words, it was just " gee Jaina is a nice gal, I hope peace works out".

Though you managed to move my opinion of him from "inept traitor" to "guileless idealist" :P

[anaxie]

you want me to add the failure of undercity in her "track record" ?

? She took control of kalimdor and the alliance and forced to battle it out in arathi. Soooooo?

[Dudas]

This dude encompasses the strength of the Horde, the pragmatism of a leader

Strength maybe ... but age hits us all so considering how much he coughs I am amazed he can still charge properly. Guy looks as if he's going to break at any time.

Pragmatism? Dude would doom thousands to "gloryfilled" suicidal battles as long as they die "honorably". Sometimes he looks like he hopes he dies cause he is tired already of blizzard storytelling.
The whole datamined conversation between Saurfang and Sylvanas clearly shows that he is an "old dog that can't learn new tricks".

Sylvanas is pragmatic cause she proposes a solution that is not "honorable", even though her strategy doesn't damage a single horde fighter and creates a line of defense that buys them time to retreat/regroup/evacuate Undercity. She scolds and mocks him cause all he wants is to charge, kill 3 footmen and then die. She asks him to propose a better solution to the situation and clearly he is unable to. Pragmatic leaders would have one that could have a chance at turning the scales. The fact that she accepts defeat and orders the retreat when she could have easily order Lok'tar ogar on all the orcs and force them to die for a lost cause is actually something to be taken into account considering the situation.

Saurfang never had pragmatism. Maybe he will adapt and learn something about it during BFA and I hope he does don't get me wrong. But for now he is nothing more than a charge and don't think about consequences old type of orc. I do hope we get to see him with a cool strategy and a change of mentality. Considering he has been a veteran in so many wars it would make sense to see more military tactics/suggestions to come from him.

[Syegfryed]

? She took control of kalimdor and the alliance and forced to battle it out in arathi. Soooooo?

soo what? you want a medal for doing basically nothing?

[anaxie]

soo what? you want a medal for doing basically nothing?

I wouldnt call what it took for sylvanas to create the fordaken as a force to be reconed with in azeroth any small feat

But go ahead and try to pick apart the nost established lcharacter in the entire franchise.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Yes please... I want a Horde Warchief who is actually worthy of respect again.

Sylvanas is a mix of more Thrall and less Garrosh as Warchief but people don't realize this she's been like this even before she was Warchief. She's fine. If you think she's evil you just don't know her lore.


She gives mercy as seen in Silverpine finale where she gives Lorna over but with a cost [Gilneas] and will not hesitate to eliminate the enemy using whatever tactic even going as far to taking a commander out of duty to secure her people's future and the Horde's foothold in the EK. [Andorhal]