Anti-gay 'vote Putin' video goes viral in Russia

[Krigaren]

I'm more interested why your media mentions gays and doesn't notice blacks.

Do you have some possible explanation?

Because gay people are being imprisoned and murdered in Russia for being gay. Black people are not suffering in Russia due to being black.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Somehow I can't see the video, so it's hard to form an objective PoV on this.

With that said, Russia's stance on homosexuality is well know, archaic and against basic human rights.

[Shalcker]

Because gay people are being imprisoned and murdered in Russia for being gay.

That doesn't actually happen (except for Chechnya, possibly).

And Chechnya has little to do with general Russian attitude toward homosexualism - Chechens do their "Sharia patrols" even in Berlin.

[Lenonis]

A few arguments why it is more important for Russia then US:

Honestly, I don't really care because I reject your premise that marriage is about promoting having children. For reasons I already stated and the reality is the tax code is what creates monetary incentives for childbirth, not marriage. Plus we haven't even touched on adoption or other ways of bringing children into families.

Just shows that cultures and laws develop at different speeds in different areas.

I never once argued to the contrary. This all started with you asking why gay marriage went ahead of polygamy. Which I answered because the legal framework already existed. Which then....somehow...got into the topic that the legal framework is about childbirth and penises and vaginas. Which it isn't. It's about joining a legal adult's assets with another's.

And, fundamentally, no matter how much you want to spin it...Russia is not a friendly environment to gays compared to the US.

Of course it is if you compare it to some countries in the middle east.

Because, as you stated, cultures and laws are at different places at different times. From there you have to get into agreement on what is a "good" culture vs a "bad" one...and I already know you aren't going to agree with me on what good looks like from a gay rights perspective so.........I guess we're done here.

[Shalcker]

Somehow I can't see the video, so it's hard to form an objective PoV on this.

Does this one play for you?

With that said, Russia's stance on homosexuality is well know, archaic and against basic human rights.

Perhaps if you define "basic human rights" as "anything considered to be human right in US specifically".

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I never once argued to the contrary. This all started with you asking why gay marriage went ahead of polygamy. Which I answered because the legal framework already existed. Which then....somehow...got into the topic that the legal framework is about childbirth and penises and vaginas. Which it isn't. It's about joining a legal adult's assets with another's.

You could modify your legal framework to include polygamy just as well as you did with gay marriage.

And, fundamentally, no matter how much you want to spin it...Russia is not a friendly environment to gays compared to the US.

Noone argues against that; people just protest media caricatures of Russian attitudes.

[Machismo]

Does this one play for you?


Perhaps if you define "basic human rights" as "anything considered to be human right in US specifically".

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You could modify your legal framework to include polygamy just as well as you did with gay marriage.

Noone argues against that; people just protest media caricatures of Russian attitudes.

Then there is no problem with saying it is homophobic. There's no problem with saying it discriminates against gay people, because that's what it is doing. At least yo are finally admitting to the homophobia thing.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Does this one play for you?


Perhaps if you define "basic human rights" as "anything considered to be human right in US specifically".

It plays all right and it's homophobic as hell. Even for Putin, this is ridiculous.

Basic human rights, I don't define as "gay marriage" or w/e is the debate in the states. But Russian camps where they torture and kill people for being gay IS against basic human rights. And Russia is a cesspoll of crimes against humanity.

[Lenonis]

You could modify your legal framework to include polygamy just as well as you did with gay marriage.

Sure. But let's not pretend getting to a commonly agreed upon legal framework for creating and dissolving multi-person contracts is easy.

Once again, your original question was why gay marriage went first. The answer is the legal framework already existed. The question wasn't why haven't we also legalized polygamy. That's...significantly more complex on a whole bunch of issues...include the social and moral ones that the US hasn't advanced on like for gay marriage.

[Warning]

That is what I said, the distinction is that you devalue subjective truth, and I don't... However subjective truth is not the same thing as subjective (ignorant) opinion. Which is why reason/logic,"facts" that back up a viewpoint create a subjective truth... usually based on scientific observation, or a universal "law". The conscious agent, which is subjective, is the only thing that matters in the universe. Feel free to disagree.

This is not what you should take away from what I've written. I greatly value subjective moral norms and values, I have to because I think they're the only ones that exist. I think scientific analysis in order to find the best way to implement western subjective values is an important and worthwhile pursuit. What I don't want is to pass these subjective values off as "higher" or "objectively the best" values. That's where the cultural relativism comes in. But that doesn't mean I don't agree with them or don't want to fight to maintain them, its just that I don't want to put them on that pedestal of objective superiority, because there is nothin to suggest that these values originate from some higher order outside ourselves.

I actually think we largely agree on the material values themselves, we only seem to disagree on their origin, for me its fine if they come from man rather than god. That said I'd like to leave it there if you agree so as not to weave a huge separate argument through the rest of the thread.

[Shalcker]

Basic human rights, I don't define as "gay marriage" or w/e is the debate in the states. But Russian camps where they torture and kill people for being gay IS against basic human rights. And Russia is a cesspoll of crimes against humanity.

Those are Chechen, not Russian camps; even if they are subject within Russian Federation.

Chechen tribal values do not generally go well with Russians.

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He does not believe in the concept of "free will", in his view everything a person does is predicated by genetics, or society(upbringing, culture, etc). So if you want to understand "well being", look at both how the human responds to value systems, and how nature predisposes the reactions.

He did not actually talk so much about "good" or "bad", he spoke more about "well being" and "suffering". The postmodernist would say "well being" is subjective... and to some extent it is... but it can also be measured... so what actions in a society optimize well being was his real concern.

Let me put a different take on this.

People are biologically different (despite being largely similar, and somewhat malleable to change through upbringing). That includes reactions to various social norms and customs. Various societies had different pressures in selection of attributes - occupations, wars, access to trade, famines/possible agricultural practices, brutal oppression or no less brutal revolutions changed survival chances for some attributes and diminished those for others.

And existing values, generally, represent local optimum that preserves societal stability to the level that society can function as a state with citizens it has.

Some are more tolerant to oppression because there were centuries of rule during which those who rised against it were killed; others, like US or Australia, were created by those who escaped persecution at home because their "escape" was (partially) financed through imperial colonization efforts. Individualism was relatively easy to maintain because there was plenty of land in decent climatic zone for plentiful harvests, and when society started pressuring you, you could just move further West (and that worked for quite a while). Gross oversimplification, obviously.

Russia, in general, has a lot more tolerance to communal rather then individualistic values because population was largely agricultural up until mid-20th century. And to survive there you had to rely on community. Sometimes you could do everything right and still have awful harvest - and then, if there was no way for you to survive otherwise, you could throw away your social status, wear special garb, and go ask (with your children) your neighbours for slices of bread as a pauper. And it was basically taboo to refuse giving to those who did that. ...but if you were outcast of society, or took your dignity above that, you would be left with no option but to die on a bad year. And there were plenty of bad years.

And Communist ideology exploited that situation to max.

And that's how we end up with society that is fine with oppression of outliers - where outliers are forced to conform rather then have society conform to them. That isn't going to change just by saying "our way is better".

Again, gross oversimplification.

[Shalcker]

Your culture is slowly dying, because by pushing communal ideals over individuality the people there are slowly suffering and resorting to drugs. While in the US, it is the other extreme. Individuality is overexpressed and people feel disconnected, lonely, and worthless.

Actually it happens in Russia for exactly same reasons - people who feel disconnected, lonely, and worthless turn to drugs. Or they connect with people who already did and follow their downfall.

Alcohol abuse is more of cultural thing, but that one is already going down quite rapidly.


Perhaps there are plenty of those "disconnected" people in Russia because individualistic ideals "elites" tried to transplant from West fail to improve their perception of self-worth.
Perhaps because through historical factors (cultural _and_ genetic) perception of self-worth is defined as being accepted by community as worthy - through external rather then through internal validation. More so in Russia then in US.


And changing societal perception of homosexualism is a lot more work then just changing laws by finding some sympathetic judges to push an agenda.

You have not actually argued against anything Sam Harris said... you actually argued for it. Figure out what brings people well being individually, and you will see the communal well being go up as well. But I can guarantee you that oppression of individual rights is not going to be how you solve it.

I do not argue against it - you misunderstood me. I stand on exactly same position.

I just say that by this logic what is good for individual differs between societies, cultures AND genetics combined.

That is, you cannot say "this is result of experiment on this group of people as far as their outcomes go, and that's how it works for all of humanity!"; you can only say "people with those traits do better with those policies/actions, people with other traits (possibly) do better with those other policies/actions" (which could doom multiculturalism or at least hugely complicate it).

[Krigaren]

That doesn't actually happen (except for Chechnya, possibly).

And Chechnya has little to do with general Russian attitude toward homosexualism - Chechens do their "Sharia patrols" even in Berlin.

Lol "possibly"? It's only been reported worldwide by every major news organization that gay people were being rounded up and murdered. Considering that Chechnya is a part of the Russian Republic, guess what? That means that gay people are being jailed and murdered in Russia for being gay.

Putin and the Kremlin did nothing about it purges, and continues to do nothing about the atrocities happening in his country. The fact that the Russian government has criminalized "LGBT Activisim" - which we all know is a convenience law to allow the government to crack down on protests and activists - is all we need to know regarding the Kremlin's attitude toward homosexuality.

So take your pro-Russia propaganda someplace else.

[Shalcker]

Lol "possibly"? It's only been reported worldwide by every major news organization that gay people were being rounded up and murdered.

Every news organization also reported on US allegations that Iraq had WMDs; that doesn't necessarily make it true.

But noone in Russia would be surprised if it indeed was true.

Considering that Chechnya is a part of the Russian Republic, guess what? That means that gay people are being jailed and murdered in Russia for being gay.

But it tells nothings about attitude of Russians toward gays.
America has no nation-wide ban on "conversion therapy" and gay re-education camps. Should we consider those who think conversion therapy works and is best for gays reflection of American attitudes? Chechens are driven by similar views, though they are a lot more crude in their methods.

Putin and the Kremlin did nothing about it purges, and continues to do nothing about the atrocities happening in his country.

Sure; plenty of things "Putin does nothing about" people of Russia would care more then gays though.

[Lenonis]

But it tells nothings about attitude of Russians toward gays.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/1...reprehensible/

Will you please stop trying to pretend that Russia is anything other than a majority homophobic country with a minority of those people being violently homophobic.

No one is buying your propaganda.

Hope your supervisors don't measure your effectiveness when determining your paycheck!

[Shalcker]

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/1...reprehensible/

Will you please stop trying to pretend that Russia is anything other than a majority homophobic country with a minority of those people being violently homophobic.

That "reprehensible" doesn't extend to "round them up into re-education camps and torture them", however.

So stop exaggerating.

No one is buying your propaganda.

Clearly you're already bought into yours.

[Lenonis]

That "reprehensible" doesn't extend to "round them up into re-education camps and torture them", however.

So stop exaggerating.

How am I exaggerating? You've already admitted to the anti-gay violence which proves my minority violently homophobic point and you admit to the poll, which proves my majority homophobic point.

Unless you think that thinking gays are reprehensible isn't somehow homophobic.

Clearly you're already bought into yours.

You've admitted to what I've put forward as evidence so....not sure what point you are trying to make.

You are coming across as incredibly dishonest here when you say "yeah, sure, that's right, but I'm going to make some complete misrepresentation of what you just said in order to try discredit you."

[Theodarzna]

Russia, or at least much of it, has re-embraced Orthodox Christian faith, and even a small very active Pagan community grows there. I suspect Gay Rights might not endure this revival.

[szechuan]

Again, gross oversimplification.

Not Sure, but a wise man once said. Mr. Gorbachev hadouken down this wall!

[Shalcker]

How am I exaggerating? You've already admitted to the anti-gay violence which proves my minority violently homophobic point and you admit to the poll, which proves my majority homophobic point.

Anti-gay violence happens in US too; it gets dealt with like any other violence.

Noone asks victims of violence their sexual orientation.

Unless you think that thinking gays are reprehensible isn't somehow homophobic.

Possibly higher average disgust response to it (that might be genetic - "homophobia" has better heritability then homosexuality, after all); also remains of cultural norm derived from prison culture (that treated homosexuals as complete pariah, and, in turn, used pariah to provide sexual favours in prisons, regardless of their orientation).

You are coming across as incredibly dishonest here when you say "yeah, sure, that's right, but I'm going to make some complete misrepresentation of what you just said in order to try discredit you."

I was arguing against presenting Chechen views as views of Russians; you interjected with poll about different thing.

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Then I am not sure where the disagreement is... I stated early on, that the change has to come organically from the people themselves. My only "issue" was how Russia handled the "gay propaganda" law... it locked out debate on the public square. That is oppression and leads to more suffering in the long run. You disagree, fine...

Look, activists brought topic into public debate, debate happened, and public said, quite loudly - "Ban what those activists do! Save the children!" Polls agreed. Legislation followed.

If public debate can change things, it can change things in any direction. You are not guaranteed retaining of status quo before you started if you fail.

Then there was falling-out with West, and West using gay issue as shaming target (still do as we see); that also didn't do any favours for public discourse. Now you could be justifiably seen as "fifth column" of US if you would publicly agree with their approach to gay rights. Tribal identifiers work like that.

but logically speaking if you follow how these things go, nothing I said has been "wrong" in regards to deductive reason/logic. I do not buy into religious or traditional arguments alone. If the traditional/religious argument is reasoned, it stands on its own. If it has you believe in nonsense, it should be discarded.

I just think that both tradition and religion have their reasons, and until you examine those reasons you cannot claim it is nonsense. It might or it might not be.

Some things still make sense within broad context; others might be only held because it is easier to keep going then to change; different ones might be based on provably false beliefs. Though even those might endure for quite some time - for example if you would examine anti-vaccination people from times vaccines were introduced you would be seeing attitudes surprisingly similar to modern anti-vaccination adherents.

[Lenonis]

Anti-gay violence happens in US too; it gets dealt with like any other violence.

Thanks for the whataboutism.

Noone asks victims of violence their sexual orientation.

completely irrelevant. Even if the victims were straight if they were attacked because the attackers thought they were gay it's still a hate crime with homophobic intent.

Possibly higher average disgust response to it (that might be genetic - "homophobia" has better heritability then homosexuality, after all);

Newsflash -- children gaining bigoted views form their parents doesn't make it genetic. I can't believe you even tried that.

also remains of cultural norm derived from prison culture (that treated homosexuals as complete pariah, and, in turn, used pariah to provide sexual favours in prisons, regardless of their orientation).

Irrelevant and frankly really weird that you even brought it up.

I was arguing against presenting Chechen views as views of Russians; you interjected with poll about different thing.

I showed that Russian views are pervasively homophobic so your whole "that's just Chechen" is a lie.

I really don't understand what you are trying to accomplish here. You seem to just be tossing as much shit in the air to hope something sticks.

Why can't you say "Yeah, Russian are really homophobic, but that's fine because we want to be that way. It's our culture."

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for example if you would examine anti-vaccination people from times vaccines were introduced you would be seeing attitudes surprisingly similar to modern anti-vaccination adherents.

Why would that be a surprise? Anti vaccination views stem from extreme ignorance on the subject -- which would also exist when they were first introduced.