2-handed Frost? The dream coming true!

[ZenX]

I still remember the day of seeing the release notes for Threat of Thassarian and start getting levelling my one-hand weapon skills by killing demons in Blasted Lands, and I remember the day when Might of the Frozen wastes trapped the spec into being the two-button spec as due to its more bursty nature, every FotM *snip* flooded the arena and caused the Obliterate to be rendered into a joke and once Blizzard was trying to remedy things I had already re-rerolled to WW Monk which they ended up crippling in the same expansion it got released, so I went enhancement shaman and don't care any more.

If it rocks your boat, have it but for me 2H frost probably was the worst thing to happen to DKs after Blood dps getting shelved along with ArPen's removal.

[Schattenlied]

Don't really get why people want 2H Frost back so badly. That means all of the artifact appearances you've unlocked this xpac will be useless to you.

You do realize the vast majority of people don't use their artifact appearances even now, in Legion, right?

Aside from that, if the weapon type restrictions were removed from abilities, if a person wanted to use their legion artifact appearances, they could just choose to use 1h weapons.

It also seems odd because Frost is so fast and spammy. It would look very strange to see a giant 2H sword being flung around like a twig in order to visually match how many abilities we're actually spamming.

Except, you know, it was just as spammy back in previous expansions, when we were allowed to use 2h weapons, and it looked fine... You also say that as if there aren't other 2h specs that hit abilities every GCD... News flash, there are, frost ain't any more spammy than any of those other melee.

[Wildberry]

Depends on the situation and where being looked from. Forums are a good way to calculate criticism but lack the essence of positive feedback. %99.99 of the complaint threads remain unanswered because a single blue post would make it official problem due to the "recognition" it gets.

Okay, but that has no bearing on whether or not forum critique is valid or not. You're currently trying to argue that people complaining on forums isn't indicative of anything, while simultaneously claiming that there simply aren't that many people complaining on forums, therefore most people must like DW.

Arthas did exactly NOTHING a frost DK does until he wears the Helm of Damnation, that's what I am saying. Frost theme was later introduced to his kit due to his presence was in Northrend.

WC3 Gameplay=/= Lore. Either way, considering that becoming the Lich King (heavily Frost) was the ultimate expression of Arthas' character arc, we should be focusing on post-LK Arthas, rather than focusing on pre-LK Arthas for no discernible reason.

Wasn't everyone here point to Arthas being 2 handed for the foundation of 2 handed frost DK? I think It's you that brought it up when saying Frostmourne should go to Unholy. In that manner, I think it is the lacking nature of Frost Fantasy that makes things complicated.

I was simply responding to the following post of yours:

I believe UH fits Arthas theme more therefor design team made UH 2 handed.

If Arthas was truly an Unholy DK, they would've been given Frostmourne.

If you take DW away from frost, only thing that you will left is 2 frost magic spells(Howling Blast/RW). Keep in mind that up until 7.2 Howling blast was just a regular spell cast with almost no VFX, and remorseless winter has been added to Frost baseline during legion.

Okay, well first of all, the aside for "up until 7.2" doesn't matter anymore, because we're past 7.2. More importantly, Frost has a number of things that separate it from Unholy.

Unlike Unholy, which focuses on diseases and minions, Frost focuses entirely on direct damage. The "Knight" in "Death Knight" really isn't touched upon much by Unholy at all. At some point DW advocates and Blizzard are going to have to realize that wielding a giant, hard-hitting runeblade is part of the Death Knight fantasy, too, and Unholy doesn't capitalize on that. It can't.

DW, for years, was the only thing that made Frost unique compared to other Specs, therefore it became core Identity of the spec. Only thing that made 2 handed Frost a thing was Lich King using 2 handed, meanwhile even from the WotLK talents it was clear that Frost DKs were more of the reflection of Thassarian(MA BOI!!)

Frost just being direct-damage and not having a permanent pet separates it significantly from Unholy. With regard to "identity" no. DW wasn't the core "Frost identity." That was dealing direct, heavy damage, and not having a pet. Frost also consistently saw 2h pull ahead in PvP. Beyond that, ToT was added after WotLK was halfway over.

Also, it's very clear that Frost is inspired far more by the Lich King than "Literally who Thassarian." The only reason you're throwing Thassarian's name out there is because he is literally the only Death Knight that has consistently dual wielded. That's it. Arthas didn't dual wield. Nor did Rivendare, any of the Four Horseman, Deathbringer Saurfang, etc. Hell, even Darion Mograine shelved his 1h weapons in 3.3.

Remember that before Legion, if it weren't for dealing Frost Damage, Frost Dk had 0 Frost in it. This is just sad and DW was the only unique thing. Breath of Sindragosa wasn't even usable due to Killing Machine critting Frost Strike being too strong to give up!

What does this even mean? "If it weren't for dealing Frost damage, Frost DK had 0 Frost in it." Dealing frost damage is kind of a prerequisite for a spec to have Frost, is it not? Beyond that, we had Howling Blast, we've had Hungering Cold on and off, etc. BoS not being optimal doesn't change the fact that it was an option for the spec.

But somehow you seem to be missing the point here. DW isn't what separates Frost from Unholy. Frost dealing direct damage and not having a pet does that. If you were right, and dual wield was the only unique thing about Frost, there is literally nobody that would complain about the removal of 2h Frost. We simply would have quietly gone Unholy.

I strongly disagree with you there. That talent is what made DW DK a reliable option. Being able to Dual Wield while not being able to deal any damage doesn't make you a DW class/spec, does it?

The talent wasn't in until halfway through WotLK, though. Is Unholy a DW spec because DW pulled way ahead in early Cata?

All I see is one hand in the saddle and the other slashing with the sword, therefore frostmourne is not a 2h sword, end of discussion.

Wow, great picture! That totally invalidates canon!

Frost dks will never go back to using 2-handers, not when Blizzard has emphasized spec uniqueness as the primary objective. Want to wield a big 2-hander? Spec blood or unholy.

2h Frost can coexist with spec uniqueness. The playstyle and theme are very different regardless of weapon choice. Perhaps some people want to play a Death Knight without tanking or dealing with pets?

DKs are all kinds of fallen warriors, why is it strange that some prefer to dual wield?

The only one that prefers to dual wield is Thassarian. Aside from Darion Mograine (VERY briefly) every other notable Death Knight uses a 2h weapon.

Auto attacks? Do people care about it still?

"Do people still care about the thing that dismantles my argument?" Regardless, the argument is valid, you just don't like it because you refuse to acknowledge anything that isn't praising "DW-only" Frost.

But Arthas was an unholy DK....so therefor 2H for unholy...DW for frost.

If Arthas was Unholy, why did they have to invent a weapon for you guys, rather than just giving you Arthas'?

If it rocks your boat, have it but for me 2H frost probably was the worst thing to happen to DKs after Blood dps getting shelved along with ArPen's removal.

2h Frost didn't happen, though. Considering Threat of Thassarian (which made DW viable) was added in 3.2, Dual Wield happened to Frost. Regardless, we wouldn't be having this discussion if Blizzard recognized that plenty of people want some 2h petless spec for DKs.

[tru]

Cool... so when do we get dual-weild blood and unholy?

Did you play wrath? Cause you could then.

[Doot14]

The real question is, is there any hope that enhance shamans get 2h ever again? Looking pretty bleak.

[ZenX]

2h Frost didn't happen, though. Considering Threat of Thassarian (which made DW viable) was added in 3.2, Dual Wield happened to Frost. Regardless, we wouldn't be having this discussion if Blizzard recognized that plenty of people want some 2h petless spec for DKs.

Ah, I can get behind that stance though. Unholy as it is now, was and has been felt like a plated warlock than what Arthas was in WC3 which pretty much ends up putting the burden on Frost which I had thought would have been more akin to a Lich (Back when they were announced) but Unholy ended up being the caster.

[nathrizarri]

(Some heavy bias resistance)

True Lich King spec would be the a rewamp of DK by combining Unholy with Frost.

I am sorry but dealing Frost damage doesn't give you the feeling of being Frost DK when there is no Frost animation in the spec. Animations, VFX and SFX are what sells these factors. Not some random text indicates the DMG type and before legion, Frost DK didn't have anything to shine there.

Still bringing up the Cata UH DW? How long did it last? You should be reasonable and automatically judge it by yourself and come to realization that UH DW didn't live long enough and gutted by blizz that it cannot be a legit reference.

I am sorry but none of your arguments are dismantling mine here. If a person is triggered by dual wielding auto attacks should go see a doctor for OCD because we literally do not see our character due to constant GCD usage.

This is the problem with people like you. You are so triggered about little things and make it such a big problem that you carry your confirmation bias to everywhere and sad part is that you cannot help it. In multiple replies I tried to be as neutral and open despite you constantly trying to "debunk" my "perspective" because that is not included in yours.

Summary this non-sense debate where you look miserable over and over again:

Give a glyph that will make 2-handed lovers happy, maybe include the option to dual wield 2 handed weapons too.

Arthas is mostly necromancy, we only saw Frost Arthas during transition phase of the raid fight and WOTLK trailer where he summons sindragosa(even that is UH since He actually resurrects sindragosa instead of summoning him)

Lich King was Lich King. Not frost nor UH. he had everything. Only example we have for FDK is thassarrian, he was DW. DKs are the reflection of lich king in small scale.

DW FDK isn't a rogue or fast hitting spammy weak character. We do not hit Obliterate with 1 hand each with 2 GCD. We Smash Both swords at the same time with a powerful swing. We do not use huge swords like Fury however we use Frost Magic.

Auto attacks are just a DOT on enemy that aren't even visible, %99 of the time you see character using abilities, and regardless FDK or Arms warrior, attack speed is the same in abilities.

[Deleted]

Absolutely retarded in every way that frost Death Knights can't use a 2 hander. Would be like restricting a Ret Paladin from using a 2 hand mace or a Mage from using a staff.

Fair enough in Legion it was for some weapon diversity between the 3 specs but sort it out Blizzard. 2 hand or 1 hand the choice should be there and be cosmetic.

[4justice]

But Arthas was an unholy DK....so therefor 2H for unholy...DW for frost.

No Arthas was a restoration dk...

[nathrizarri]

You do realize the vast majority of people don't use their artifact appearances even now, in Legion, right?

Aside from that, if the weapon type restrictions were removed from abilities, if a person wanted to use their legion artifact appearances, they could just choose to use 1h weapons.
Except, you know, it was just as spammy back in previous expansions, when we were allowed to use 2h weapons, and it looked fine... You also say that as if there aren't other 2h specs that hit abilities every GCD... News flash, there are, frost ain't any more spammy than any of those other melee.

Vast majority? Confirmation bias, confirmed!

I support 2 handed frost to a certain extend but this is noway near the truth.

1-Some do back sheathing mogs
2-Some like actual swords, thin ones
3-Some want bigger swords
.
.
.


List goes on. Even though I don't remember that much people mogging their artifact, moggers are divided due to their reasons, yet you assume they all have "your" reason.

[Deleted]

The real question is, is there any hope that enhance shamans get 2h ever again? Looking pretty bleak.

This should also happen.

[Wildberry]

I just want to take one moment to point out that you had to step back and reframe because you were losing point by point.

True Lich King spec would be the a rewamp of DK by combining Unholy with Frost.

Why do you keep trying to argue mutually exclusive points?

Arthas was UH, Lich King however, had Frost elements. Arthas became "Frost" after being Lich King and blizz admitted that fantasy of frost was being "mini Lich King". I think arthas and LK are 2 different entities and I urge you to evaluate my statements based on this

Still bringing up the Cata UH DW? How long did it last? You should be reasonable and automatically judge it by yourself and come to realization that UH DW didn't live long enough and gutted by blizz that it cannot be a legit reference.

I love how you say this while pretending that Frost was always dual-wield. (Threat of Thassarian was, again, added in 3.2)

I am sorry but none of your arguments are dismantling mine here.

I mean, ignoring the fact that you've contradicted yourself half a dozen times, and have pretended that things which invalidate your argument simply don't matter, would you care to explain why you chose to reframe the discussion rather than continuing the point-by-point we had going?

This is the problem with people like you. You are so triggered about little things and make it such a big problem that you carry your confirmation bias to everywhere and sad part is that you cannot help it. In multiple replies I tried to be as neutral and open despite you constantly trying to "debunk" my "perspective" because that is not included in yours.

No, you posted absolute nonsense that was easy to deconstruct. You tried to synonymize your opinion with objective reality, and now you're salty that you were called on it.

Arthas is mostly necromancy, we only saw Frost Arthas during transition phase of the raid fight and WOTLK trailer where he summons sindragosa(even that is UH since He actually resurrects sindragosa instead of summoning him)

Since you want to focus so heavily on gameplay mechanics to define Arthas, would you mind pointing me to where Unholy Death Knights have the ability to reanimate a Frostwyrm. I must have missed it, I'll admit I don't play Unholy much

Only example we have for FDK is thassarrian, he was DW. DKs are the reflection of lich king in small scale.

Objectively false. Thoras Trollbane is a Frost Death Knight, he uses a 2h weapon (As does literally every other notable Death Knight, save for Thassarian).

DW FDK isn't a rogue or fast hitting spammy weak character.

DW FDK is actually pretty spammy at the moment. 1h swords, by their very nature, have a faster swing time than 2h. That literally dismantles your argument.

We do not hit Obliterate with 1 hand each with 2 GCD.

Yeah, is there any class in this game where a single ability eats 2 gcds because lolDW?

We do not use huge swords like Fury however we use Frost Magic.

So basically "Frost magic" is what makes us unique. Not Dual wielding? Got it! That's what I've been saying.

Auto attacks are just a DOT on enemy that aren't even visible, %99 of the time you see character using abilities, and regardless FDK or Arms warrior, attack speed is the same in abilities.

Again, just because you don't like it doesn't make it not true. Auto attacks are visible. Maybe you should stop tunnel visioning on your buttons?

I love how I'm triggered, but you're increasing font size and posting almost entirely in bolded letters just because you're salty that people are reminding you that auto attacks dismantle your argument.

- - - Updated - - -

Vast majority? Confirmation bias, confirmed!

I feel like there's another poster who made a similarly dubious claim... something about a "silent majority" supporting DW frost or something?

[nathrizarri]

Nop, you are doing the same thing over and over again.

example: I said Frost had no animation vfx and sfx were present enough to sell "frost theme" and we only had DW to distinguish us from the rest of the DKs and made comparison to Fury that what differs us from them despite wielding one handers and having same function is that we use frost magic.

you: "see I said DW is not the only thing we have"

me: My point is that our "frost theme" wasn't represented due to lack of visuals and sounds, only in damage meters untill Legion/7.2

fact: you nitpick and fail over and over again.

--

example 2: I said there is a silent majority that are happy to play DW frost and not bothered to come forums and post stuff, forums are mostly the place for the people who are not happy and sound their concerns, happy ones don't come here and say "yea frost is awesome", they play the game. This was a fact pointer to people that they think are the majority because so many QQs are on forum and they fail to grasp the other side of the story.

you: a guy comes and says vast majority of DKs mog their artifacts, out of nowhere, and you somehow related it with my stance.

--

you lack the basics of understanding yet try to make huge claims.

1st, read what is written
2nd, understand what is written
3rd, post a reply

you lack first 2

Some nitpicking bullsh*t

[Wildberry]

@nathrizarri
Considering fancy vfx and sfx didn't exist for most melee classes until Legion, that's entirely irrelevant. That's you setting up some arbitrary nonsense to try and prove a point. That kind of argument doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

you: a guy comes and says vast majority of DKs mog their artifacts, out of nowhere, and you somehow related it with my stance.

Wow, it's almost like you both are making sweeping claims about supposed majorities with zero citations? Gee, I wonder why someone would equate those two things?

But again, I can't help but notice that you're trying to reframe, because you were losing

[nathrizarri]

@nathrizarri
Considering fancy vfx and sfx didn't exist for most melee classes until Legion, that's entirely irrelevant. That's you setting up some arbitrary nonsense to try and prove a point. That kind of argument doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.


Wow, it's almost like you both are making sweeping claims about supposed majorities with zero citations? Gee, I wonder why someone would equate those two things?

But again, I can't help but notice that you're trying to reframe, because you were losing

Wrong. VFX/animation/SFX are what gives the "feel" to the class and we lacked them. Well maybe you can feel like a Frost DK because your ability tooltip says "Frost damage" but I'd like to see that Frost action going on my screen, and I believe I am not alone on this one.

I am neither losing or winning. This is the fundamental difference between you and me.

Mine wasn't a claim, it was an assumption. You should be imagining the alternate universe end of the situation if 2 hander frost was reintroduced and dealt higher than DW and DW fans swarm forums and complain about being forced into 2H while wanting to play DW.

Whole purpose of the "silent majority" was to say "hey guys, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean some other people do the same too! you type here cause you are unhappy, they play their DW FDK because they are happy, come up with something that can help both ends, not just you!"

But you and your nature of conflict took it as if I was saying "2H concerns are irrelevant you guys are minority silent majority is playing the same"

I dunno how basic should I go and explain every words relation to each other to you. Feels like I am talking to a chipmunk that lacks basic intellectual capacity to connect phrases.

[Wildberry]

Wrong. VFX/animation/SFX are what gives the "feel" to the class and we lacked them. Well maybe you can feel like a Frost DK because your ability tooltip says "Frost damage" but I'd like to see that Frost action going on my screen, and I believe I am not alone on this one.

Are you just ignoring Howling Blast or something? That's pretty Frosty, and there was a little more to it than a tooltip description.

Mine wasn't a claim, it was an assumption. You should be imagining the alternate universe end of the situation if 2 hander frost was reintroduced and dealt higher than DW and DW fans swarm forums and complain about being forced into 2H while wanting to play DW.

If Dual Wield fans still have the ability to dual wield, I don't care. I'm not concerned about which weapon gives slightly better damage, I'm concerned about the fact that 2h proponents don't have the ability to play the spec the way they enjoy.

Whole purpose of the "silent majority" was to say "hey guys, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean some other people do the same too! you type here cause you are unhappy, they play their DW FDK because they are happy"

Then why not say that instead of making some implied appeal to majority for a claim you can't cite?

I dunno how basic should I go and explain every words relation to each other to you. Feels like I am talking to a chipmunk that lacks basic intellectual capacity to connect phrases.

This is actually somewhat humorous considering I've been tripping all over your abysmal English skills throughout this discussion. I was content to ignore it because you're a Turk, but if you want to get snippy...

[nathrizarri]

Are you just ignoring Howling Blast or something? That's pretty Frosty, and there was a little more to it than a tooltip description.

Howling Blast was a simple cast with hands without any VFX. Only VFX it had was small foggy thing appeared on target which is barely noticable even 1v1'ing with target dummies. If it was enough for you, maybe my standards are higher than yours.

If Dual Wield fans still have the ability to dual wield, I don't care. I'm not concerned about which weapon gives slightly better damage, I'm concerned about the fact that 2h proponents don't have the ability to play the spec the way they enjoy.

I want 2H fans to enjoy their gameplay too. But I know how terrible is the community and raids/dungeons that you apply asking you:

"dw or 2h?"

and I don't want either answerer to be left outside because of their cosmetic choice, which happened for YEARS when both weapon types existed in the spec.

Then why not say that instead of making some implied appeal to majority for a claim you can't cite?

I opened my statement multiple times, its just you that after reading couple words, jump to a conclusion and disregard what remains in the text.

This is actually somewhat humorous considering I've been tripping all over your abysmal English skills throughout this discussion. I was content to ignore it because you're a Turk, but if you want to get snippy...

Nice try. I still doubt you can read whole text before the temper builds up inside of you after reading couple words that go against your beliefs. I accept my end of it that I sometimes miss couple punctions but since your godlike English skills are better than mine, It shouldn't hold you back, but It still does.

Wonder why? hmm

[Wildberry]

Howling Blast was a simple cast with hands without any VFX. Only VFX it had was small foggy thing appeared on target which is barely noticable even 1v1'ing with target dummies. If it was enough for you, maybe my standards are higher than yours.

So you admit it had VFX, you just didn't like them. You're setting up a completely arbitrary standard for "Frost-theme"

I want 2H fans to enjoy their gameplay too. But I know how terrible is the community and raids/dungeons that you apply asking you:
"dw or 2h?"
and I don't want either answerer to be left outside because of their cosmetic choice, which happened for YEARS when both weapon types existed in the spec.

What do you think people would rather deal with:
-Their preferred playstyle in their main spec deleted
-Not getting invited to a handful of raids because the other Frost performs slightly better

I opened my statement multiple times, its just you that after reading couple words, jump to a conclusion and disregard what remains in the text.

You actually went all over the place with that. Maybe you tried explaining it. If you did, it got lost behind your English and the multiple other points you were trying to make with that claim alone.

Actually, do you not remember posting:

That is where my silent majority argument comes from and despite lacking any analytical data, anyone who have basic common sense can agree here with me. And in this thread the amount of people who have no problems with DW is not that minority compared to 2 handed defenders. It is just 2 Handed supporters are way more aggressive when presenting their wishes.

You clearly defend the idea of a "silent majority."

Nice try. I still doubt you can read whole text before the temper builds up inside of you after reading couple words that go against your beliefs. I accept my end of it that I sometimes miss couple punctions but since your godlike English skills are better than mine, It shouldn't hold you back, but It still does.

The problem isn't punctuation, it's sentence structure. I'm not even trying to be rude, but you've made multiple statements that have their meanings obscured by syntax.

[nathrizarri]

So you admit it had VFX, you just didn't like them. You're setting up a completely arbitrary standard for "Frost-theme"

How hard it is for you to just say "Okay I was wrong"

You are the one that said Frost dealt Frost damage and DW wasn't the only thing that Frost has, now you switch to this?

Seriously you need help.

"If you take DW away from frost, only thing that you will left is 2 frost magic spells(Howling Blast/RW). Keep in mind that up until 7.2 Howling blast was just a regular spell cast with almost no VFX, and remorseless winter has been added to Frost baseline during legion."

Taken from my entry https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post48927686

Wildberry, the ultimate nitpicker

BUSTED!

What do you think people would rather deal with:
-Their preferred playstyle in their main spec deleted
-Not getting invited to a handful of raids because the other Frost performs slightly better

1st: Frost kept the DW cosmetic and playstyle of 2H. So if anyone whose playstyle is deleted, that is DW frost prior to Legion. 2H frost lost the cosmetic.

DEBUNKED!

2nd: Being excluded from content because of your cosmetic choice is a huge problem and it's existence is a clear indicator that source of the problem should be eliminated. In Blizz's case, they removed 2H cosmetic. I liked 2 H gameplay and DW cosmetic so It was a good change for me, but i still fully support 2 handed glyph or something like that will allow players to see their characters as 2H character while DW'ing because I don't think blizz can/or wants to balance a spec for 2 fundamentally different weapon types.

You actually went all over the place with that. Maybe you tried explaining it. If you did, it got lost behind your English and the multiple other points you were trying to make with that claim alone.

Actually, do you not remember posting:


You clearly defend the idea of a "silent majority."

OFC I did and I do not hide it however, I find myself arguing only with you even after making my explanations, maybe my English is a communication barrier only to you, which raises questions about your capacity of understanding.

I still think that these threads represent only a fraction of population and mostly filled with people obsessed over little details to a point that it bothers them so much.

Take my thread of Sindragosa's Fury for example. By the comments it almost feels like %50 of the people are happy that it is gone, yet yesterdays raid when I brought it up everyone was "wtf that sh*t is so cool why remove it?"

I doubt they will ever come to threads like this and talk about it. Maybe you are alone and only people you interact about WoW are here.

The problem isn't punctuation, it's sentence structure. I'm not even trying to be rude, but you've made multiple statements that have their meanings obscured by syntax.

And what is wrong about it? My mother tongue has nothing in common with Europian languages in terms of structure, how sbj/obj/verb aligns within the sentence and this heavily changes thought process, which gets neglected even further when it comes to writing since my primary usage of english comes from listening/speaking. Adding simple "," between connected sentences cripples the reader's concentration and it is one thing that I try to improve with my ENG writing.

[Schattenlied]

yet you assume they all have "your" reason.

I never specified any reason, so how am I assuming they all have my reason exactly? Whatever their reason is, most people seem to want an appearance that isn't their artifact.