Grom Hellscream and the Mag'har Allied Race

[Darkeon]

Better to use the assets of the Expansion That Shall Not Be Named and, in a way, own up to it - than to let it rot forgotten for all eternity. After all, it did happen..

[Dagoth Ur]

But this could be the chance for the mighty Grom Hellscream to become the Warchief or another hero of the Horde (again). I want him to come to our world. Back then you wanted Grom to join the Horde as well

It's kinda hard to imagine what kind of arc they could even do with AU Grom that won't end up being repeat of "trying to fill MU Grom's boots" one we already went through with Garrosh. I mean I kinda expect if AU Grom actually comes to Azeroth that people will measure him up to MU Grom or at least mention it in some way. It would be extremely stupid if everyone just pretended like our old Grom is back and that's it.

Could also be that he'll be brought over just for Horde to have another badass warrior character, without any actual arc planned for him, which is also okay I guess. I don't see him becoming warchief though.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

"Teldrassil is FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !"

-Ash-ridden Kaldorei, Tyrande, Malfurion and smoldering corpses cheer with enthusiasm at Grom who holds a fiery Gorehowl in the air. -

[Syegfryed]

It's kinda hard to imagine what kind of arc they could even do with AU Grom that won't end up being repeat of "trying to fill MU Grom's boots" one we already went through with Garrosh. I mean I kinda expect if AU Grom actually comes to Azeroth that people will measure him up to MU Grom or at least mention it in some way. It would be extremely stupid if everyone just pretended like our old Grom is back and that's it.

Could also be that he'll be brought over just for Horde to have another badass warrior character, without any actual arc planned for him, which is also okay I guess. I don't see him becoming warchief though.

he don't becoming villain or doing shit is the important thing though, since blizzard love hit horde characters with the villain bat

And since he is young than Garrosh and most of other characters, i don't have problem with him becoming warchief, the position i a joke this days anyway.

[Thage]

Grom Hellscream is an unreliable, amoral, self-centered asshole who likes killing things, news to nobody who's paid any attention to literally every appearance he's made in any universe. I'm more surprised the Horde is willing to let a Hellscream hold any modicum of power after Garrosh pretty much ruined the family name and AU Grom ground it into the dirt some more, with that botched invasion and his rampant incompetence as Warchief of the Iron Horde.

[Highwhale]

"Teldrassil is FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !"

It was actually funny. ROFL.

[Syegfryed]

with that botched invasion and his rampant incompetence as Warchief of the Iron Horde.

i mean, you can be salty about him as you like, but you can't rly call him incompetent, or bad leader, because he lost to us, since we have plot armor and we streamrolled everything with a little sense, like we did in the legion planet, Sargeras was basically worse than him

[Arthas242]

people also forget GROM THOUGHT HE WAS THE GOOD GUY

garrosh told him they*us* wanted to come to their world to kill them all and the draenei were planning their demise.

Grom was only evil because he believed his son as the truth

[Thage]

i mean, you can be salty about him as you lik, but you can't rly call him incompetent, or bad leader, because he lost to us, since we have plot armor and we streamrolled everything with a little sense, like we did in the legion planet, Sargeras was basically wore than him

I can call him incompetent. He fought a three-front war, spread his forces thin, repeatedly failed to secure supply routes and fallback positions, engendered no loyalty among his supporters, waged war on another world before consolidating power on his own, and appointed equally-incompetent commanders to key positions on Draenor. His incompetence is what led to Kilrogg betraying him and drinking the demon blood; Gul'dan played him like a fiddle every opportunity he got.

I'm not salty about Grom. I'm stoked to be playing the AU orcs because they've got some awesome designs. But Grom has always been a liability that hurt more than he helped, even in Warcraft 3 (where Thrall had to pull his ass out of the fire every time he turned around). One good (but still ultimately selfish) act in his dying moments doesn't change that Grom is to the Horde what Ciaphas Cain is to the Imperium.

[Zulkhan]

Can't we get Durotan or someone else instead?

Why is Grom even still alive?!

Meh fuck Durotan, at this point I would make Draka leader of AU Orcs, giving substance to what she hinted at the end of the AU Nagrand storyline ("Orcs can be strong once united but they need a responsible voice to guide them, the Frostwolves must be that voice").

Grommash is Grommash and should honestly only serve as second-in-command, filling a similar role to the one our Grom filled in WC3.

Remember when Wrathion and Kairoz planned the Iron Horde as Azeroth's allies, but Garrosh completely messed it up? Good times.

It's not completely impossible to "redeem" AU Grom, he was tricked into a position of war. All the crazy warlords are dead.

Yes, pretty much.

Zandalari Paladin was never going to be a thing because there's simply no lore for it. That's it.

That head of yours is so fucking shoved in your butthole that it could come out of the chest at any moment.

"Teldrassil is FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !"

*turns head towards us*

"...to burn."

*troll face*

On topic though, I'm moderately butthurt to not see goddamn Jorin around. The fucking Deadeye name needs some representation.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I can call him incompetent. He fought a three-front war, spread his forces thin, repeatedly failed to secure supply routes and fallback positions, engendered no loyalty among his supporters, waged war on another world before consolidating power on his own, and appointed equally-incompetent commanders to key positions on Draenor. His incompetence is what led to Kilrogg betraying him and drinking the demon blood; Gul'dan played him like a fiddle every opportunity he got.

I'm not salty about Grom. I'm stoked to be playing the AU orcs because they've got some awesome designs. But Grom has always been a liability that hurt more than he helped, even in Warcraft 3 (where Thrall had to pull his ass out of the fire every time he turned around). One good (but still ultimately selfish) act in his dying moments doesn't change that Grom is to the Horde what Ciaphas Cain is to the Imperium.

Blame that on WoW's writing, not Grom's character.

If the Iron Horde killed everyone before they invaded, we'd have no quest givers or hubs.

[Syegfryed]

I can call him incompetent. He fought a three-front war, spread his forces thin, repeatedly failed to secure supply routes and fallback positions, engendered no loyalty among his supporters, waged war on another world before consolidating power on his own, and appointed equally-incompetent commanders to key positions on Draenor. His incompetence is what led to Kilrogg betraying him and drinking the demon blood; Gul'dan played him like a fiddle every opportunity he got.

Again, is our plot armor, you can 't blame him when he is set to lose in his essence like any villain in WoW, you are trying to put logic when there is none.

[Thage]

Blame that on WoW's writing, not Grom's character.

If the Iron Horde killed everyone before they invaded, we'd have no quest givers or hubs.

You could blame the writing on that if he didn't have an established track record as an enormous fuck-up who kept taking his Warchief's attention from the problems at hand to babysit him back in Warcraft 3 (first when Thrall had to free him from captivity in Lordaeron despite Lord of the Clans making it clear that Grom evaded capture after the Second War, then divert forces to ensure Grom's suicide attack on Alliance forces didn't rout Grom's unit, then when Grom decided to wage war on the Night Elves [which to be fair, they struck first and didn't seem interested in talking] by drinking demon blood out of a random fountain, Thrall had to save his dumb ass from himself yet again). Everyone remembers him for his awesome death at Mannoroth's hands but conveniently ignores that by and large, if he was onscreen he was doing something actively detrimental to the orc race's cause and needs at the time.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, is our plot armor, you can 't blame him when he is set to lose in his essence like any villain in WoW, you are trying to put logic when there is none.

Our plot armor doesn't affect his decisions as Warchief, not when they're entirely in-keeping with his behaviors as Thrall's third-in-command in Warcraft 3 where he also consistently fucked up and harmed the Horde war effort at every turn.

[Zulkhan]

Blame that on WoW's writing, not Grom's character.

I would place a bit of blame on everyone. Let's face it, Grom has never been known for his staggering pragmatism, the young AU counterpart in particular was victim of a "hardestest dick" syndrome and when things went south he was content to acknowledge that his men "died with honor", something to which Gul'dan was 100% justified to laugh about.

[Enkrypt]

Again, is our plot armor, you can 't blame him when he is set to lose in his essence like any villain in WoW, you are trying to put logic when there is none.

No, I think he or she very precisely and accurately explains why she's entitled to the belief that Grom is incompetent. Don't attempt to dumb it down to fit your frame of what you want it to be, man. From my recollection of WC3 and what happened in WoD, they do have a point that can be checked and reinforced.

Grom has not shown much in the way of tactical prowess and foresight. And to say, "Don't blame Grom, blame Blizzard's writing..." Well... Blizzard writes Grom's character, so I'm not sure how that even makes sense. They're one in the same. They've written his character to display a distinct lack of great leadership, willfully or not.

Not saying that can't change, but he or she has every right to call him incompetent. And it's for good reasons, not just being "salty" as you put so shortly. He has displayed a genuine lack of competency.

[Syegfryed]

No, I think he or she very precisely and accurately explains why she's entitled to the belief that Grom is incompetent. Don't attempt to dumb it down to fit your frame of what you want it to be, man. From my recollection of WC3 and what happened in WoD, they do have a point that can be checked and reinforced.

Grom has not shown much in the way of tactical prowess and foresight. And to say, "Don't blame Grom, blame Blizzard's writing..." Well... Blizzard writes Grom's character, so I'm not sure how that even makes sense. They're one in the same. They've written his character to display a distinct lack of great leadership, willfully or not.

Not saying that can't change, but he or she has every right to call him incompetent. And it's for good reasons, not just being "salty" as you put so shortly. He has displayed a genuine lack of competency.

i mean, he is impulsive, but he is not stupid, besides, he had Garrosh backing him up, Attack Azeroth was Garrosh idea in the first place, we know Garrosh would not attack Azeroth if he hadn't full control in Draenor

and they basically had until we came up, then we steamrolled everything picking up allies and empowering then with little logic destroying every single iron horde plan like it was shit, same way we did with the Legion, when i do the tanaan first scenario i feel cringe how everyting there don't make sense

yep i don't blame then, still blame the writing.

[Magnagarde]

One of the most iconic orcish characters turned into one of the worst written ones, only to now make a comeback in the worst version of himself once again. Why did they even write him as the leader of the Iron Horde if they intended to keep him alive in the first place? Should've just written the him and the Frostwolf clan as the friendly faces upon the Horde's arrival to Draenor.

[Zulkhan]

Grom has not shown much in the way of tactical prowess and foresight. And to say, "Don't blame Grom, blame Blizzard's writing..." Well... Blizzard writes Grom's character, so I'm not sure how that even makes sense. They're one in the same. They've written his character to display a distinct lack of great leadership, willfully or not.

Even though Grom and Garrosh are not identical characters (I consider the latter way more vicious and despicable) one thing father and son had in common was the capability to inspire other people to follow them, which is something Thrall always admired of Grom and partially motivated his later nomination of Garrosh for the Warchief position. On the other hand, both have always been too reckless and emotional, a couple of traits highly detrimental to someone's leadership.

Both Garrosh and especially Grom did their best when they led people while being kept somewhat in check. But giving Warchief titles to either of them was never the most mindful of choices.

[cparle87]

Garrosh give zero shits about green color dude, he was warchief of the green orcs for 2 expansions and live among then for 3, jesus

It's not the color, bro. It's what it represented. Imagine that there was a deadly epidemic, let's called it green plague, that caused generations of your people to suffer. A member of a small minority who was lucky enough to avoid it paints himself green and runs around pretending he has it. Wouldn't that piss you off?

[Syegfryed]

It's not the color, bro. It's what it represented. Imagine that there was a deadly epidemic, let's called it green plague, that caused generations of your people to suffer. A member of a small minority who was lucky enough to avoid it paints himself green and runs around pretending he has it. Wouldn't that piss you off?

no, and would not piss of Garrosh, it could piss of AU Grom, not Garrosh