Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Deianeira]

Being denied the full fair use and enjoyment of our property and the available range of options we have to exercise our 2nd Amendment rights.

So you want to have grenades and RPGs and stingers incase the government comes?

[Stormdash]

So you want to have grenades and RPGs and stingers incase the government comes?

I think as a first principle that under the 2nd Amendment, everything is fair game; that were the GCA and NFA reviewed under Heller (they weren't) that most of it could be upheld under heightened scrutiny, so that grenades and RPGs, etc, could still be restricted. But coming at the question of "what weapons does the government allow us" is the wrong formulation, it's a matter of "what weapons can the government show a definite reason to restrict and a narrowly drawn restriction to each".

[Ghostpanther]

Yes some of the founding fathers were racists, some of them cheated on their wives in other words they were human unlike you who think of them as gods. I don't despise or worship them I admire what they did but see the problems with it and its history. Also we went to a civil war because people thought owning slaves was a "basic right" or did you forget that? due process tell that to the Japanese American citizens that we put in internment camps or the Chinese. How about the time when black people did not have right to bear arms? I could go on and on. Are you seriously that blissfully unaware of American history or are you too busy admiring the painting to see the wear and tear?

Edit: Due process more recent history under Obama we killed American citizens overseas without due process, under the patriot act they can lock you up and throw away the key without due process.

I am well aware of our history, being one of my favorite subjects. I am well aware of some of the wrongs we did. But overall, I am proud to be a citizen here and have no desire to move someplace else, or copy other countries. I vote and write my congressional representatives on what I feel is important for our country. You do the same if you care about our country.

Meanwhile back on the mini ranch, I am happy to have arms to protect myself and family and when I go out in the public, same thing.

And since you seem to despise quotes from our Founding Fathers :

“Gun control? It’s the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters. I want you to have nothing. If I’m a bad guy, I’m always gonna have a gun. Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I’ll pull the trigger. We’ll see who wins.” - Mafia informant Sammy “The Bull” Gravano

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Weapons designed for killing humans with ever increasing efficiency really. Look Im not a gun expert and wouldnt claim to be. I hunt deer and have killed goats/rabbits to protect the land etc and just use a classic .308 bolt action rifle and does me fine and I dont understand why people need more deadlier weapons than that.

the AR-15 may have been modified so its not automatic but you can still get bump stocks and with a skilled user its close enough to automatic anyway. And when you start debating automatic it feels to me the core issue isnt even being discussed anymore.

I dont know what the answer is, I think my main problem is the magazine size aka the kill count potential but then shooters just bring more ammo and more guns anyway. So short of just terminating anyone that shows signs of mental illness I really dont know what you do other than try control the supply of guns and make it hard for people to get them so it at least LESSENS the amounts of shootings.

This is because you live in New Zealand.

The Bumpstocks are on the board for possible gun control legislature upcoming.

Magazines are easy and quick to switch out. And we already have several gun control laws. We need to make some of the laws work better and make sure the laws we do have on gun control are enforced.

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Oh, I don't disagree that 21 sounds like a good age for gun purchases. But the NRA is correct in their argument that someone who is 18 can enlist, use much more powerful (and full-auto) weapons, but when they come home they wouldn't be able to purchase semi-automatic weapons until they are 21? 21 should be minimum age for purchase and enlistment. I like it.

Most logical people (republicans and democrats and all in between) are for stronger background checks, but Rubio was also right at that CNN spectacle, there would need to be a lot of adjustments to other things to let those background checks exist. Things like HIPPA for one.

Teachers carrying is silly, I agree. HOWEVER, if you want to use Trump's example that there could be training (I'm thinking like LEO, even though they are piss poor at aiming themselves), and a teacher wants to carry (after passing a background check, and say "renewing" it every X years), I'm fine with it.

There could be exceptions for active military. Like in Ohio now. you need to be 21 to get a carry conceal handgun license, but do not if you are active military and 18. They do not even have to have the license period. All they need is their military ID, to carry a handgun concealed.

Many school districts are already allowing the teachers to be armed. Two here in Ohio. They need to get a carry conceal license however.

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What happens when a teacher freaks out or gets spooked and shoots an unarmed kid? Or a teacher snaps after one of the little dears pushes them too far.

Same shit can happen with anyone out in the public with a carry conceal permit. It is very rare. Usually the nuts without a permit are the ones doing it. Of the school districts that do allow teachers to be armed, I have not heard of your concern happening.

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I don't think he is saying teachers should carry. I think he is saying they should be able to carry if they want to. Personally I had a teacher in high school who was retired CIA and I am pretty sure he carried lol


I think there you run into a problem. I have owned my firearms for "say" six years, I have to go back every so many years for another background check? Also that gets into registering the firearm as well, and I appose that.

What I would say is you purchase a permit that includes a background check. That permit allows you to purchase fire arms and ammo and must be presented at the time of purchase. However it does not track what if anything was purchased.

That is exactly what he said. Allow teachers who want to carry with proper training. They must have a carry/conceal handgun license here in any school districts which allow them to. So they do get the proper training. They do not need police level or combat soldier training. lol!

Yeah I am with you on that. I have to get my carry/conceal handgun license renewed every 5 years. Which they do the background check when it is. But not redo the classroom training. But if I have a valid CHL, I do not have to even get a background check done on any firearm purchase. The dealer only needs to see my valid license, type in the info and the system will automatically validate it.

[Daelak]

I think as a first principle that under the 2nd Amendment, everything is fair game; that were the GCA and NFA reviewed under Heller (they weren't) that most of it could be upheld under heightened scrutiny, so that grenades and RPGs, etc, could still be restricted. But coming at the question of "what weapons does the government allow us" is the wrong formulation, it's a matter of "what weapons can the government show a definite reason to restrict and a narrowly drawn restriction to each".

The warm bodies of children gunned down in their classrooms is a definite reason.
The warm bodies of children shot by "responsible gun owners" unsecured firearms in their homes is a definite reason.

You aren't championing the constitution, you're reveling in the massive dysfunction which is occurring in it.

Just like your conspiratorial assumption that the ATF isn't prosecuting gun smugglers and straw purchases to ensure political debate on firearm restrictions are tamped down, you also believe the conspiratorial assumption that gun control groups like every town and the Brady campaign are astrotruf organizations, not supported by the public at large.

[Draco-Onis]

I am well aware of our history, being one of my favorite subjects. I am well aware of some of the wrongs we did. But overall, I am proud to be a citizen here and have no desire to move someplace else, or copy other countries. I vote and write my congressional representatives on what I feel is important for our country. You do the same if you care about our country.

Meanwhile back on the mini ranch, I am happy to have arms to protect myself and family and when I go out in the public, same thing.

And since you seem to despise quotes from our Founding Fathers :

“Gun control? It’s the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters. I want you to have nothing. If I’m a bad guy, I’m always gonna have a gun. Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I’ll pull the trigger. We’ll see who wins.” - Mafia informant Sammy “The Bull” Gravano

Again you keep saying the word despise but I simply am not fond of worshiping the founding founders like you do and you also keep conflating the right to defend yourself with the right to own guns not really the same thing. Those mistakes as you call them highlight the fact that your "right" is what society decides to give you for people of color their constitutional "right" was always "relative" so your argument that those basic rights were not violated has been proven wrong by our current and past history.

Also you may not want to use the mafia as a bad example of how laws don't work given their current status in America.

[Ghostpanther]

Again you keep saying the word despise but I simply am not fond of worshiping the founding founders like you do and you also keep conflating the right to defend yourself with the right to own guns not really the same thing. Those mistakes as you call them highlight the fact that your "right" is what society decides to give you for people of color their constitutional "right" was always "relative" so your argument that those basic rights were not violated has been proven wrong by our current and past history.

Also you may not want to use the mafia as a bad example of how laws don't work given their current status in America.

Ok. Lets drop the despise word since it offends you too much. Lets use the " do not like their comments on gun control because it does not agree with my stance" instead. And yes, the same right which gives me the right to defend myself, exists in the same context I can do it using a firearm.

[Draco-Onis]

Ok. Lets drop the despise word since it offends you too much. Lets use the " do not like their comments on gun control because it does not agree with my stance" instead. And yes, the same right which gives me the right to defend myself, exists in the same context I can do it using a firearm.

You can use the same context to say you have the right to have a nuclear bomb, the what you can use to defend yourself is determined by society. There's no you have the right to have a AR-15 in the constitution it is up to society to decide the limits of what you can use to defend yourself. This is coming from someone who thinks you should have the right to guns within reason, I just don't think the founding founders knew anything beyond what was going on in their time. They wrote the constitution for the problems they thought they would have it is up to each generation to decide what people will use.

Maybe someday we will get rid of all guns maybe we will change the laws to a happy medium who knows that is up to future generations to decide and I am glad the constitution gives them the leeway to do so.

[Ghostpanther]

You can use the same context to say you have the right to have a nuclear bomb, the what you can use to defend yourself is determined by society. There's no you have the right to have a AR-15 in the constitution it is up to society to decide the limits of what you can use to defend yourself. This is coming from someone who thinks you should have the right to guns within reason, I just don't think the founding founders knew anything beyond what was going on in their time. They wrote the constitution for the problems they thought they would have it is up to each generation to decide what people will use.

Maybe someday we will get rid of all guns maybe we will change the laws to a happy medium who knows that is up to future generations to decide and I am glad the constitution gives them the leeway to do so.

Which is a ridiculous argument. The government can decide. This is true and we are limited what weapons we can use now.

And you and I will be long gone before that happens.

[Draco-Onis]

Which is a ridiculous argument. The government can decide. This is true and we are limited what weapons we can use now.

And you and I will be long gone before that happens.

Maybe a change will happen in our lifetime maybe it won't, if there is one things for sure it is that anything can happen in the future. I am not so arrogant as to say that I know what major tragedies or triumphs will happen in the future to change this country.

[Venant]

Maybe a change will happen in our lifetime maybe it won't, if there is one things for sure it is that anything can happen in the future. I am not so arrogant as to say that I know what major tragedies or triumphs will happen in the future to change this country.

It seems like a problem when progressives want to disarm people while at the same time constantly hinting about how the world would be better if about a third of the population was to simply 'go away'.

[Draco-Onis]

It seems like a problem when progressives want to disarm people while at the same time constantly hinting about how the world would be better if about a third of the population was to simply 'go away'.

Just like when conservatives want all minorities to be wiped away see i can do broad generalizations with no basis in fact too. People like you don't help or add anything to the conversation except hyperbole.

[Venant]

Just like when conservatives want all minorities to be wiped away see i can do broad generalizations with no basis in fact too. People like you don't help or add anything to the conversation except hyperbole.

It isn't hyperbolic to make the observation that mainstream progressivism openly advocates for racism. Comparing the progressive politics behemoth that has institutional control over much of society with an extremely fringe group on the right with no institutional power doesn't seem like a legitimate comparison.

[Antiganon]

It isn't hyperbolic to make the observation that mainstream progressivism openly advocates for racism. Comparing the progressive politics behemoth that has institutional control over much of society with an extremely fringe group on the right with no institutional power doesn't seem like a legitimate comparison.

I have a really hard time taking this point seriously when it comes from a person with an "SJW champion" and "Y U DO THIS Stalin" avatar.

[Svifnymr]

I dont know what the answer is, I think my main problem is the magazine size aka the kill count potential but then shooters just bring more ammo and more guns anyway. So short of just terminating anyone that shows signs of mental illness I really dont know what you do other than try control the supply of guns and make it hard for people to get them so it at least LESSENS the amounts of shootings.

The issue with handgun magazine limits is that it affects law abiding carriers more than criminals. Most people that carry don't carry an extra magazine, or at most one. So you've created a situation where you artificially limit that person to 10 rather than 15/17. The criminal is planning on an attack, so he just has more with him, he's not doing it every day.

It does cause the person to reload more often, but that only really helps if there's someone to take advantage of that lull in the shooting.


Also, for the thread:

[Venant]

I have a really hard time taking this point seriously when it comes from a person with an "SJW champion" and "Y U DO THIS Stalin" avatar.

I think Dan Harmon did a good job explaining how mainstream progressives feel about the country after Trump. Apparently 29% of the country are literal Nazis who need to be killed. I have to say that 29% is a pretty specific number, I wonder what other number that roughly correlates with.

[TZucchini]

Also, for the thread:

"An assault rifle is a description of how a gun looks, rather than how it functions."

Uh, what? That's factually incorrect. He's conflating assault rifle, and assault weapon, just as politicians do. But his mistake is even worse, given the context of the video...

[Draco-Onis]

It isn't hyperbolic to make the observation that mainstream progressivism openly advocates for racism. Comparing the progressive politics behemoth that has institutional control over much of society with an extremely fringe group on the right with no institutional power doesn't seem like a legitimate comparison.

It isn't hyperbole then proceeds to make hyperbole, isn't there an Alex Jones or 4chan forum missing you?

[bamf775]

I'm pretty sure that if Liberals were somehow successful at removing the 2nd amendment from the constitution, civil war would erupt almost immediately. It just isnt going to happen and if it somehow does.... god help us all.

[igualitarist]

Imo, people having guns is not the problem. The real problem is how easy a mentally ill guy can obtain a fire weapon.

So some regulations aiming this very specific issue may be welcome, but thats all.

I also would like to point out that america is facing a serious mental health problem, so the real cause of the shootings won't be fixed, only its more visible symptom may be healed with the regulations.

[Orby]

How about we let them keep they guns, but ban ammo :P