Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

...identical rant threads on this exact same issue that have been posted over the years? ...They are just rants by people who can't get into pugs, can't be bothered to join a guild and refuse to run pugs themselves.

Pretty much.

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videos and guilds DON.T HELP EVERYONE, SOME LEARN MORE FORM EXPERIENCING IT.

So you're saying guilds don't help because people have to learn from experience? When guilds are the traditional route to gain experience? If it was easier to gain experience through pugging than through a guild, why would we have so many un-guilded players ranting in forums that they aren't accepted by pugs? Why are there so few posts from guilded players complaining that they can't raid? What's that? It's because guilds are more likely to help you along and give you chances to learn a new raid than random strangers? That's amazing! So happy we have that settled.

[thunderdragon2]

So you're saying guilds don't help because people have to learn from experience? When guilds are the traditional route to gain experience? If it was easier to gain experience through pugging than through a guild, why would we have so many un-guilded players ranting in forums that they aren't accepted by pugs? Why are there so few posts from guilded players complaining that they can't raid? What's that? It's because guilds are more likely to help you along and give you chances to learn a new raid than random strangers? That's amazing! So happy we have that settled.

that was a typo i was riting that late at night it was meant to be guides don't help every one sorry

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Just ... how?!? Technically please.

simple they were requiring a ilevel that wasn't obtainable to the masses week one i saw groups day one requiring a ilevel equivalent to what the raid dropped=930

[Slicer299]

So many pages indeed over the years, and STILL some people don't realize how big of a problem this is. No offense, but you are part of the problem. Instead of people changing, to make the pug envoirment better, people simply say "join a guild" or "start a group". That has been the "answer" for years, but it's a horrible answer!

A lot of people CAN'T join a guild, cause they can't have a regular raid schedule. Work, kids, w/e might be the reason. We are forced to pug.

And to lead our own group? How can that be a demand in order to raid. On an avarage, pug raids have between 15 and 20 people, meaning a vast majority will not be the leader, so how can this be a DEMAND. In those curved, geared group, you don't have to lead, so WHY must that be a requirement?

I consider myself a good Rogue and I know tactics for my own role and class, since it's the only class I play. I know what a Rogue should do a boss. I have NO IDEA about other peoples jobs. I don't know how to tank the bosses, how to heal effieciently or what to do as a ranged dps. I don't know tactics outside my own class/job. Leaders need to know all this, but it should not be a demand for the raid. And to be forced to know every role, every job, every tactic etc should not be a demand to raid.

There are leaders and there are raiders. You should not be forced to be both in order to raid.

But its not a problem, at all. Except for those unwilling to put in the effort required. Hence why these threads shouldn't be allowed, at least not in the Dungeon and Raid section, because, again, its not discussing the actual dungeons and raids. People "CAN'T" join guilds, that's a lie. The truth is they choose not to. They choose not to put in the effort. There are plenty of casual guilds out there. Not a casual guild on your server of choice any more? Find another server. Not being able to afford server transfers is not even an excuse any more since they're free. Play the game, earn gold, buy tokens with gold, cash in tokens for BNet balance, use BNet balance to transfer servers.

You don't even have to go that far. There are plenty of casual guilds out there that are 1 or 2 people short of a regular raid team that will happily run with 1 or 2 people from another server, if those people can commit on a consistent basis, since the loot system still allows things like ML so long as 80% of the raid team is from that guild. But how much effort your willing/able to dictate to the game does not allow you to tell other people they have to lower their standards. Yes the requirements people list for pugs are outrageous, always have been. But its time people STFU about it already. You can't make them change, and Blizzard neither will or should make them change. Even Blizzard has no right to tell people they can't ask for certain achievements or item level as requirements for pugs.

Blizzard has been saying for over a decade that the person running the raid has sole say and authority over how that raid is run, and that they will not interfere. The lone exception to that, and even then they've limited their involvement, is the loot system. Its Blizzard's official policy that its not possible for a raid leader to steal any loot, because you agree to give 100% authority to that raid leader for all loot decisions when you join their raid. One of the only things they have done is try to cut down on people reserving loot via the personal loot system, which can still be bypassed so long as the group is comprised 80% or more of guild members.

But its still Blizzard's official policy that raid leaders can set any requirements they want for joining their raids. 1000+ rant threads has not changed that, will not changed that, and after a decade they need to all be treated like spam. I'm also not going to debate every point you tried to make, because there is little point in debating someone who makes their points based on feelings instead of facts, but joining a guild does NOT require being able to make raid times. Earning a raider spot will require being able to make raid times. But even non casual guilds will take members who aren't raiders Those non casual guilds will be more likely to run alt raids through normal and heroic on off nights from Mythic where they take non raiders along with their alts, if they have room and enough raiders to carry.


Edit:

One last thing I forgot to mention. If you can't find 2 nights a week were you can dedicate 2-3 hours in game for a regular raid schedule, you have no business demanding to do any content outside of LFR. You are EXACTLY the type of player LFR was invented for. You have no business complaining here or anywhere else that your lack of item level and achievements is keeping you out of pugs. Pugs aren't there for people who are otherwise not running regular raid content. Pugs are for real raiders gearing up alts, meaning they have the achievements to get in. Or for real raiders who missed a night and need to make up for it.

If 2 nights, 4-6 hours a week, is too much of a commitment for you, stick to LFR. Its why its there. Stop demanding the bar be lowered for you simply because you can meet the same expectations as everyone else.

[Prime92]

This ilvl is pure bs, i've seen peoples with high ilvl in m+ performing really bad, and vice versa. Sure agree it ads up to raid dps or heal, but also dead played ads nothing.

Maybe because of TF bullshit? Gear requirements would've been more appropriate if there was no such gear inflation due to this ridiculously grotesque system. Gear is no longer reflection of how much the person has progressed through content but how lucky and how consistent they were or how much $ they spent on BoE gear and boosts.

As long as there is this retarded fucking TF system requirements for raid invs are going to be at or above gear drops in raids, just get used to that or let blizzfucks know you don't want TFs...simple as that. You could also make your own pugs but I am pretty sure 99% of those who create such topics can't even wipe their own ass let alone create successful pug raid.

[Baroclinic]

Its rare that I link anything, then again I'm running in as a 960ish ilvl these days. When joining AoTC Argus groups, some of my favorite phases usually have been "Well damn, I paid 350K for my AoTC and I survived phase 1/managed to not drop Blight in the melee/etc., not sure what the hangup is." or "Damn, I shoulda gotten a discount on my AoTC for being able to pod too."

Funny story, one time ran a M+14, and commented that at this point most people should be 930. I had just invited a tank/ranged combo where the ranged with something like 935 or so who looked to have decent gear and experience, and one of the other DPS goes spouting off how we would be carrying a 930. The low ilvl ranged pretty much blasted everyone on the DPS meters while doing better at mechanics then even myself. At the end he apologized to the blabber for having to carry his low ilvl ass. LOL

I do wish logs showed the likelihood of people leaving after a wipe, they would be a hell of a lot more useful.

[Deleted]

simple they were requiring a ilevel that wasn't obtainable to the masses week one i saw groups day one requiring a ilevel equivalent to what the raid dropped=930

How did that "lock out" anyone out of this content? Everyone had the same fair chance to run it afaik.

[Deleted]

So many pages indeed over the years, and STILL some people don't realize how big of a problem this is. No offense, but you are part of the problem. Instead of people changing, to make the pug envoirment better, people simply say "join a guild" or "start a group". That has been the "answer" for years, but it's a horrible answer!

A lot of people CAN'T join a guild, cause they can't have a regular raid schedule. Work, kids, w/e might be the reason. We are forced to pug.

And to lead our own group? How can that be a demand in order to raid. On an avarage, pug raids have between 15 and 20 people, meaning a vast majority will not be the leader, so how can this be a DEMAND. In those curved, geared group, you don't have to lead, so WHY must that be a requirement?

I consider myself a good Rogue and I know tactics for my own role and class, since it's the only class I play. I know what a Rogue should do a boss. I have NO IDEA about other peoples jobs. I don't know how to tank the bosses, how to heal effieciently or what to do as a ranged dps. I don't know tactics outside my own class/job. Leaders need to know all this, but it should not be a demand for the raid. And to be forced to know every role, every job, every tactic etc should not be a demand to raid.

There are leaders and there are raiders. You should not be forced to be both in order to raid.

You left out option to buy boost. Anyone can make gold and buy boost even if they dont have ilvl, achievements, cant join guild, cant make own groups etc.

[nocturnus]

Fixed it for you. The tears about m+ / raider.io / wowprogress m+ score are already flowing freely, just browse the forums around. It's exactly the same story.

It's already in game - you can get your key and try to push while gearing up an alt. One of following excuses will happen:
"I don't know how to lead a group"
"My dungeon key is shit"
"No tanks or healers are queuing"
"When people see my low geared toon they insta leave"
"When I actually manage to get tank and healer at my ilvl and they didn't quit, the group wipes 5 mins into the dungeon and disbands"

I bet you 90% of the time one of the above will happen. Because people don't want "mythic raid quality dungeons", they want "smooth, fast, one shot grp" and mythic quality loot, not challenge. Bonus points for any guy who claims "I've already done it on my main" as a reasoning why his fresh 910 alt deserves "1 shot grp" despite a group full of 910s wouldn't be able to complete that content.

Could you please NOT quote me if you're completely going to change what I actually wrote?

As for the rest of you message: yeah, quite a handsome cumulation of bullshit; as long as you queue up to dungeons that fit your ilvl, you'll be fine. Never mind the fact that it's very easy to form a static group with only 5 people.

[Battlebeard]

But its not a problem, at all. Except for those unwilling to put in the effort required. Hence why these threads shouldn't be allowed, at least not in the Dungeon and Raid section, because, again, its not discussing the actual dungeons and raids. People "CAN'T" join guilds, that's a lie. The truth is they choose not to. They choose not to put in the effort. There are plenty of casual guilds out there. Not a casual guild on your server of choice any more? Find another server. Not being able to afford server transfers is not even an excuse any more since they're free. Play the game, earn gold, buy tokens with gold, cash in tokens for BNet balance, use BNet balance to transfer servers.

You don't even have to go that far. There are plenty of casual guilds out there that are 1 or 2 people short of a regular raid team that will happily run with 1 or 2 people from another server, if those people can commit on a consistent basis, since the loot system still allows things like ML so long as 80% of the raid team is from that guild. But how much effort your willing/able to dictate to the game does not allow you to tell other people they have to lower their standards. Yes the requirements people list for pugs are outrageous, always have been. But its time people STFU about it already. You can't make them change, and Blizzard neither will or should make them change. Even Blizzard has no right to tell people they can't ask for certain achievements or item level as requirements for pugs.

Blizzard has been saying for over a decade that the person running the raid has sole say and authority over how that raid is run, and that they will not interfere. The lone exception to that, and even then they've limited their involvement, is the loot system. Its Blizzard's official policy that its not possible for a raid leader to steal any loot, because you agree to give 100% authority to that raid leader for all loot decisions when you join their raid. One of the only things they have done is try to cut down on people reserving loot via the personal loot system, which can still be bypassed so long as the group is comprised 80% or more of guild members.

But its still Blizzard's official policy that raid leaders can set any requirements they want for joining their raids. 1000+ rant threads has not changed that, will not changed that, and after a decade they need to all be treated like spam. I'm also not going to debate every point you tried to make, because there is little point in debating someone who makes their points based on feelings instead of facts, but joining a guild does NOT require being able to make raid times. Earning a raider spot will require being able to make raid times. But even non casual guilds will take members who aren't raiders Those non casual guilds will be more likely to run alt raids through normal and heroic on off nights from Mythic where they take non raiders along with their alts, if they have room and enough raiders to carry.


Edit:

One last thing I forgot to mention. If you can't find 2 nights a week were you can dedicate 2-3 hours in game for a regular raid schedule, you have no business demanding to do any content outside of LFR. You are EXACTLY the type of player LFR was invented for. You have no business complaining here or anywhere else that your lack of item level and achievements is keeping you out of pugs. Pugs aren't there for people who are otherwise not running regular raid content. Pugs are for real raiders gearing up alts, meaning they have the achievements to get in. Or for real raiders who missed a night and need to make up for it.

If 2 nights, 4-6 hours a week, is too much of a commitment for you, stick to LFR. Its why its there. Stop demanding the bar be lowered for you simply because you can meet the same expectations as everyone else.

I do agree with a lot you say, especially about that the leader should have the power indeed. I am only concered that the wrong type of people become the leaders. I don't know how to fix this without taking away the power to lead whenever you want, but there is so much ignorance on the leading front today, and 0 incentive to compromise or being flexible. It's a really tough question, cause it's hard to balance out.

With todays Raid-ID and loot system, if you find a bad leader and get saved to like 2-3 bosses you can just continue in another raid. This is both good and bad. The bad part is that the raid can be so "casually formed" and not require much effort to start. It's made smooth and convinient but it lacks investment so to speak. IF a raid had the old system, where you got saved to that raids ID and if you killed 2-3 bosses, you were screwed that week, it would FORCE people to put effort into making the group to go far. Then, they would not just invite the highest geared, but rather invest in proper raids. A 960 who leave at one wipe is not a good investement, a 930 with really good patience might be a much better choice etc.

You are however wrong about what you say about LFR. LFR was not intented for people with little time, but rather for bad people. It has joke fights and drop bad gear, it's the "tourist mode", Blizzard even said so themselves. It's what you do when you try to learn to raid or if you want to gear up a new character. It's insulting for anyone who is decent at the game to even suggest they do LFR. I mean, does it sound reasonable that like a Mythic raider, who get a new job and have to step down as a raider, start doing LFR? For a Mythic raider to do anything below HC is also directly insulting.

[nocturnus]

You are however wrong about what you say about LFR. LFR was not intented for people with little time, but rather for bad people.

Unless you have a valid source for this I have to say that you are the one that's wrong.

LFR is for people that want to see the content but that do not want to invest large amounts of time in logistics.

[Deleted]

Unless you have a valid source for this I have to say that you are the one that's wrong.

LFR is for people that want to see the content but that do not want to invest large amounts of time in logistics.

He just called himself bad, no worries. He stated repeatedly he doesn't want to play this game because of some "ideals" about how it should be played, so he rather alt-tabs during raids. The place Blizz designed specifically where this is a valid option is actually LFR, where his attitude will be least detrimental to other peoples' gaming experience. If they have an issue though, they can "democratically" kick him too.
I am still in awe how people still discuss with this guy

[Battlebeard]

Unless you have a valid source for this I have to say that you are the one that's wrong.

LFR is for people that want to see the content but that do not want to invest large amounts of time in logistics.

Google "LFR tourist mode" or "Ghostcrawler LFR tourist mode", and you can see a lot of evidence that Greg Street, former lead game designer, has with his own words called it tourist mode. Found a thread on mmo-champion about it as well, https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...de-amp-Rewards (don't bump it, it's old).

And of course Blizzard would not officially name it "for bad people" but they did call it tourist mode. And face it, it's commonly known that LFR is for the baddies. I did some LFR in tomb, just for some transmog, and it was a living hell, the people there is so bad it's scary. And ever since DS, when it was implemented, people have joked and called it Looking For Retards, cause we all know it's true.

It IS for the bad people, regardless what Blizzard try to brand it as now. If someone tells me to do it, I take serious offence, cause it would suggest I would be suited for content tuned for more or less the worst people gaming can offer.

[Deleted]

Google "LFR tourist mode" or "Ghostcrawler LFR tourist mode", and you can see a lot of evidence that Greg Street, former lead game designer, has with his own words called it tourist mode. Found a thread on mmo-champion about it as well, https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...de-amp-Rewards (don't bump it, it's old).

And of course Blizzard would not officially name it "for bad people" but they did call it tourist mode. And face it, it's commonly known that LFR is for the baddies. I did some LFR in tomb, just for some transmog, and it was a living hell, the people there is so bad it's scary. And ever since DS, when it was implemented, people have joked and called it Looking For Retards, cause we all know it's true.

It IS for the bad people, regardless what Blizzard try to brand it as now. If someone tells me to do it, I take serious offence, cause it would suggest I would be suited for content tuned for more or less the worst people gaming can offer.

I think you should do LFR, it seems like it really suits your playstyle and mentality.

[Battlebeard]

He just called himself bad, no worries. He stated repeatedly he doesn't want to play this game because of some "ideals" about how it should be played, so he rather alt-tabs during raids. The place Blizz designed specifically where this is a valid option is actually LFR, where his attitude will be least detrimental to other peoples' gaming experience. If they have an issue though, they can "democratically" kick him too.
I am still in awe how people still discuss with this guy

I try to always be calm and collected in any discussions and it's not like I write outrageous statements in all caps. Why not discuss with me? Just cause you don't agree with me? You want everyone to think like you so you can pat eachothers backs and say "WE know this game, everyone else are fools" with a proud grin?

I never once called me bad, in fact, I said the very opposite. But I am lazy, very lazy and want the game to be able to played by lazy yet skilled players.

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I think you should do LFR, it seems like it really suits your playstyle and mentality.

Why? I guess you just try to trigger me but if not, why would I ever go inside LFR? I am for improvements to the game, not the opposite. I truly hate the idea of LFR, cause it put a random guy as leader, and the one thing I said in this thread, is to put MORE responsibilities on the leader, not less.

[Deleted]

Why? I guess you just try to trigger me but if not, why would I ever go inside LFR? I am for improvements to the game, not the opposite. I truly hate the idea of LFR, cause it put a random guy as leader, and the one thing I said in this thread, is to put MORE responsibilities on the leader, not less.

Im not trying to trigger you, you just proved my point by this statement.

But I am lazy, very lazy and want the game to be able to played by lazy yet skilled players.

Lazy and skilled, i dont see how those two go well together.

[Battlebeard]

Im not trying to trigger you, you just proved my point by this statement.



Lazy and skilled, i dont see how those two go well together.

I have achieved most of my IRL success by being both, or rather by being smart and lazy. Being lazy has forced me to find shortcuts in whatever I do. There is a saying, "work smarter not harder" which is very, very true. Yes, I cheated on a lot of tests during my educations, cause I was too lazy to study, but by being smart about it, I always got away with it, putting in a lot less effort than most people in my classes. And every day at work, I always look for the quick solution without risking any quality. The point is simply, it's working quite fine in my life and it HAS worked very well in game too, but Legion has become a disaster for me.

[Deleted]

I have achieved most of my IRL success by being both, or rather by being smart and lazy. Being lazy has forced me to find shortcuts in whatever I do. There is a saying, "work smarter not harder" which is very, very true. Yes, I cheated on a lot of tests during my educations, cause I was too lazy to study, but by being smart about it, I always got away with it, putting in a lot less effort than most people in my classes. And every day at work, I always look for the quick solution without risking any quality. The point is simply, it's working quite fine in my life and it HAS worked very well in game too, but Legion has become a disaster for me.

TBH i dont really care about your life story, thats up to you that you are being lazy IRL.

But thats not how this game works, if you want to perform good, you have got to not be lazy, but i guess thats hard for you to understand, as you stated yourself you try to find a shortcut, the easy way for everything. Which is probably why you have mediocre at best logs, but who am i to judge, just dont start whining about it on the forums, because you dont want to dedicate yourself.

[thunderdragon2]

How did that "lock out" anyone out of this content? Everyone had the same fair chance to run it afaik.

2 things. not everyone is a leader which means they cant leader a group and those that did lead set the bar so high that most of the community wasn't able to get in on week 1 and then they fall even further behind as they dont have the clear achievement and therefor become trapped

[Deleted]

2 things. not everyone is a leader which means they cant leader a group and those that did lead set the bar so high that most of the community wasn't able to get in on week 1 and then they fall even further behind as they dont have the clear achievement and therefor become trapped

Yeah ... right ... at least there was someone to blame for being lazy. Dem elitist raiders and dem elusive leaders. I understand it now.

[thunderdragon2]

Yeah ... right ... at least there was someone to blame for being lazy. Dem elitist raiders and dem elusive leaders. I understand it now.

i could make my own grp as ive done it before for ur attitude you've done it before, but not everyone can do it, people just want to be able to raid without the grp falling apart after one wipe or raid leaders kicking them for 1 mistake, mistakes are made even in 960+ groups the sooner you accept this the better