Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

that was a typo i was riting that late at night it was meant to be guides don't help every one sorry

Fair enough. I agree that experience teaches better than just reading guides, but I stand by my point: it's unrealistic to expect random strangers to invest the same time in teaching you that a guild would. The guild is investing time in you, for which they hope to be rewarded with another competent team mate. Random strangers know they will probably never see you again, so there's little chance of their investment paying any dividends.

As for pugs requiring item levels unobtainable by the masses... All most pug leaders care about is filling their group in a reasonable amount of time with players who can easily clear the content. That's all. Requirements are a vector of supply and demand. If they can fill in 5 or 10 minutes with 930+, they will ask for 930+. When it becomes easy to fill with 950+, they will ask for 950. Has absolutely nothing to do with what's needed; it's all about what's readily available.

[Deleted]

Recently hit 110 and put together my own group for Antorus normal with only 900 ilvl. Full clear with no issues. Ilvl is just a tool for players to use, and you can use it too by forming your own group. If idiots want to set 945 ilvl for entry into their raids then that's what they do, what do you want Blizzard to do? Set normal to a queue so everyone gets in? Look at how terrible LFR is because of that.

[YorHa-Unit-2B]

945 ? When me and my friends and guildies are making Antorus Normal for our alts and socials, we ask for at least 955-960 on Normal and Heroic (Curve included obviously). Why would we not ? We aren't here to give free handouts to anyone. I expect people to be remotely close to my level when i make a group.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

i could make my own grp as ive done it before for ur attitude you've done it before, but not everyone can do it, people just want to be able to raid without the grp falling apart after one wipe or raid leaders kicking them for 1 mistake, mistakes are made even in 960+ groups the sooner you accept this the better

From what I've seen, the people starting these threads want...

1. Someone else to start a group, lead that group, and invite them to tag along.
2. No requirements that they be as prepared (gear or experience) as the other members of the group.
3. No obligations to anyone involved after the group finishes and they've collected their loot.

There are certainly people who offer this service; you can find them in trade chat and group finder and ask them their fee.

[Sunderella]

ban damage meters from the game, remove item level from game. code overachiever addon into the game. once the only metric available is if you survive the encounter or die within the first minute, then problem solved.

[JackWest]

ban damage meters from the game, remove item level from game. code overachiever addon into the game. once the only metric available is if you survive the encounter or die within the first minute, then problem solved.

And people that die on the ‘first minute’ are still gonna complain others have too high requirements by not wanting to carry dead weight strangers

[Deleted]

You can get to these item levels just buy having luck with titanforged procs off Great Invasion Point bosses, LFR and your item level 1000 legendaries. I have alts who only run Argus emissaries and world bosses, and have item levels near 945. Of course, these are not fresh 110, but I would not want to have a fresh 110 character in the last raid of the expansion. Most people need some time to get used to a spec, to get at least 2 legendaries, etc.

[Battlebeard]

ban damage meters from the game, remove item level from game. code overachiever addon into the game. once the only metric available is if you survive the encounter or die within the first minute, then problem solved.

Sounds like a good start, especially banning damage meters and removing ilvl. Also, gear tracking addons like gearscore should be banable. Overall, we need less ways to check and judge eachother.

[demonyaa]

ban damage meters from the game, remove item level from game. code overachiever addon into the game. once the only metric available is if you survive the encounter or die within the first minute, then problem solved.

Its funny that the "entitled crew" wants to ban any and all performance metric or indicator from the game because it's elitist.

Do people really think this will make it easier for them to find carry groups for them to leech on while under-performing? Hint: it will not have the desired outcome.

For argument's sake, let's say Blizzard really would ban most of the metrics being used, they remove raid achievements, kill the API (killing wowprogress raider.io et al) hide item level and remove damage meters and combat log functionality from the game.

What would happen?

Organized guilds would still tackle the content, it would be harder to improve performance without logs and some of the tools lost but fundamentally nothing would change.
PUGs would... die. Period. No ifs, no buts, without any way to meaningfully assess expected performance no one would dare to form pugs. Sure they might try a few times but there would be so much wiping and failing that the whole "pug ecosystem" would fall apart and the entitlement crew would be relegated to run LFR only.

[JackWest]

Sounds like a good start, especially banning damage meters and removing ilvl. Also, gear tracking addons like gearscore should be banable. Overall, we need less ways to check and judge eachother.

No. We need to stop rewarding people for being bad and motivate them to learn their classes and game mechanics. Call me ‘elitist’ all you want but when i do weekly +15 i dont want a mage thats gonna do 400k dps and die on the first avoidable 1 shot mechanic. It has happened many times when i ‘give people a chance’ and take players who dont overgear the content

[Deleted]

Its funny that the "entitled crew" wants to ban any and all performance metric or indicator from the game because it's elitist.

Do people really think this will make it easier for them to find carry groups for them to leech on while under-performing? Hint: it will not have the desired outcome.

For argument's sake, let's say Blizzard really would ban most of the metrics being used, they remove raid achievements, kill the API (killing wowprogress raider.io et al) hide item level and remove damage meters and combat log functionality from the game.

What would happen?

Organized guilds would still tackle the content, it would be harder to improve performance without logs and some of the tools lost but fundamentally nothing would change.
PUGs would... die. Period. No ifs, no buts, without any way to meaningfully assess expected performance no one would dare to form pugs. Sure they might try a few times but there would be so much wiping and failing that the whole "pug ecosystem" would fall apart and the entitlement crew would be relegated to run LFR only.

People are delusional, they want to get carried, yet make people believe they are skilled, by not doing anything. So they come to the conclusion that something is wrong with the game, because it is not according to their mindset. Hence why we get these topics, which are nothing more than deja vu from each expansion.

[Deleted]

[SNIP]You are however wrong about what you say about LFR. LFR was not intented for people with little time, but rather for bad people. It has joke fights and drop bad gear, it's the "tourist mode", Blizzard even said so themselves. It's what you do when you try to learn to raid or if you want to gear up a new character. It's insulting for anyone who is decent at the game to even suggest they do LFR. I mean, does it sound reasonable that like a Mythic raider, who get a new job and have to step down as a raider, start doing LFR? For a Mythic raider to do anything below HC is also directly insulting.

But it is also for people who cannot commit to a schedule like me. I could perfectly fine raid normal, probably even heroic if I could stomach to participate in a guild again, and would have a totally stable work schedule and other leisure actitivites plannable. But this is just not the case with me. I have to keep most evenings clear due to several reasons, which would result in being able to participate in a raid only on 1 raid night. That is, if I find a group which starts 1-2 hours later than they usually do in my region. That is it for me with scheduled raiding, 1 raid night a week at best. I cannot even commit to a mythic+ group, which probably would be easier to manage logistically.

On occasions, I join pugs for some bosses. Most of the time I have to resort to LFR, and belong to people who carry others. And if I want to be carried, I pay for a boost. And then I can lecture other boosted people about mechanics.

[evermynd]

If you want to get into groups i'll let you in on a secret.

Lie

That's it. I just took my newly boosted void elf through all of normal at a sub 900 ilvl and heroic at a 915 ilvl by just queuing for everything and linking achievements.

Don't have an achievement?
http://www.wow-fake.com/achievement/

There you go. Nobody ever checks. They just invite based on what you link. If you get kicked after one or 2 bosses, just find a new group at the boss you need.

Also the groups claiming they want 10000 ilvl are full of shit. They will invite people way lower than that. They just say that to scare people away.

[Tradu]

Why? I guess you just try to trigger me but if not, why would I ever go inside LFR? I am for improvements to the game, not the opposite. I truly hate the idea of LFR, cause it put a random guy as leader, and the one thing I said in this thread, is to put MORE responsibilities on the leader, not less.

More responsibility but at the same time reducing the number of tools they have available, as well as the effectiveness of those tools. Good luck with that.

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I try to always be calm and collected in any discussions and it's not like I write outrageous statements in all caps. Why not discuss with me? Just cause you don't agree with me? You want everyone to think like you so you can pat eachothers backs and say "WE know this game, everyone else are fools" with a proud grin?

I never once called me bad, in fact, I said the very opposite. But I am lazy, very lazy and want the game to be able to played by lazy yet skilled players.

The outcome of laziness and bad play is the same, so for everybody else involved, they're the same thing. And based on the information available, you are not a skilled player.

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ban damage meters from the game, remove item level from game. code overachiever addon into the game. once the only metric available is if you survive the encounter or die within the first minute, then problem solved.

Fuck no. Removing information is not the solution to people being bad players with bad attitudes.

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Sounds like a good start, especially banning damage meters and removing ilvl. Also, gear tracking addons like gearscore should be banable. Overall, we need less ways to check and judge eachother.

No, if anything we need more. And removing information won't make it easier for you to get carried, because you'd have to actually show people how good you are "in person" somehow and get a reputation for being good, because people wouldn't just blindly trust your (lie filled) whisper even if the information wasn't available.

[Drusin]

Nobody ever checks.

Drusin checks. I never lead groups but before I request to join a group I armory the lead, then armory everyone in the group and everyone who joins. If I see something I don't like I'm snitching.

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For argument's sake, let's say Blizzard really would ban most of the metrics being used, they remove raid achievements, kill the API (killing wowprogress raider.io et al) hide item level and remove damage meters and combat log functionality from the game.

What would happen?

I think we were doing M Tyrant Velhari in HFC when it was current and a tank got killed and the RL asked why he didn't use a defensive and the tank said he did so the RL looked it up in the logs and the tank did use a defensive but it dropped a second before the hit. Without logs they would probably still be arguing to this day.

[thunderdragon2]

Fair enough. I agree that experience teaches better than just reading guides, but I stand by my point: it's unrealistic to expect random strangers to invest the same time in teaching you that a guild would. The guild is investing time in you, for which they hope to be rewarded with another competent team mate. Random strangers know they will probably never see you again, so there's little chance of their investment paying any dividends.

As for pugs requiring item levels unobtainable by the masses... All most pug leaders care about is filling their group in a reasonable amount of time with players who can easily clear the content. That's all. Requirements are a vector of supply and demand. If they can fill in 5 or 10 minutes with 930+, they will ask for 930+. When it becomes easy to fill with 950+, they will ask for 950. Has absolutely nothing to do with what's needed; it's all about what's readily available.

i agree with that until they ask for 930+ but only invite 950s then we will need to disagree i'm afraid, people don't want to help others in a similar situation as themselves. also to add to this if everyone made their own group there wouldn't be enough people to fill those groups with now would there?

[Tradu]

i agree with that until they ask for 930+ but only invite 950s then we will need to disagree i'm afraid, people don't want to help others in a similar situation as themselves. also to add to this if everyone made their own group there wouldn't be enough people to fill those groups with now would there?

Why would they invite lower ilevel people over higher ilevel people?

[Sunderella]

what would happen is that since there are no demonstrable requirements against which to be compared, you would get your invite. then you can either be fine for the duration of the pug or die repeatedly doing stupid stuff and be kicked. either way you would at the very least have your chance. Would there be any more or less pugs? Thats irrelevant to this thread.

Also you seem to assume everybody creating and looking for pugs are actually trying to be carried which is probably not true. In fact you make it sound like the very existence of pug groups was meant to be carried. I myself have had times where my only way to raid or do high level vanilla dungeons was done via pugs. Of course back then i had a healthy and active friendlist of trustworthy people. That method served me well when I needed it. Probably would still work nowadays although community is not what it used to be anymore.

As for me, Im ok with the existence of "entitled crews" and "elitists" and I am able to happily ignore both of them.

[Osmeric]

No. We need to stop rewarding people for being bad and motivate them to learn their classes and game mechanics. Call me ‘elitist’ all you want but when i do weekly +15 i dont want a mage thats gonna do 400k dps and die on the first avoidable 1 shot mechanic. It has happened many times when i ‘give people a chance’ and take players who dont overgear the content

Why do "we" need to do that? I mean, aside from your personally wanting it? Why should Blizzard want it, if it doesn't actually help them make money?

You seem to be a person confusing their personal desires with some kind of universal objective good.

[JackWest]

Why do "we" need to do that? I mean, aside from your personally wanting it? Why should Blizzard want it, if it doesn't actually help them make money?

You seem to be a person confusing their personal desires with some kind of universal objective good.

It was a response to saying "damage meters" and other tools that help us evaluate people "should be banned", so yeah. I responded to his opinion with mine