[Veng] Meta becoming a stance?

[Awyee]

Looking at the latest vengeance changes, I really like where it's going. One thing that concerns me slightly is what they're doing to Metamorphosis:

Metamorphosis: Transform to demon form for until cancelled, increasing current and maximum health by 0% and Armor by 0%. Generates 0 Pain every 5 sec. Demon Hunter - Vengeance Spec. Instant.

Am I reading this that we'll be sitting in Metamorphosis the entire time? Do we just lose the ability to see our gear? Meta as a CD is fun and feels like it matches class fantasy, but being a demon 100% of the time feels off.

Thoughts? Anyone on the Alpha able to confirm once it's live?

[Tech614]

Probably not, there is a lot of tool tips that have that "until cancelled' text in this data mine that shouldn't, like the new void reaver talent. How would we cancel a debuff on an enemy?

Edit: notes are updated and showing Meta as a 15s dur with a 20s CD.

That would be weird, and clunky to say the least.

[A-sayo]

The "until cancelled" is 90% of the time a placeholder.

[Unholyground]

It probably is going to drain your resource to keep transformed.

[Deleted]

TBH I wish Havoc had this.


If Havoc had the old Demonology Meta then I think it would solve alot of issues. It would also fit the fantasy of surrendering to the demon form for as long as you build demonic fury.

They could make Meta more powerful too.

It was kinda sad in Legion that Chaos Blades is a stronger DPS cooldown than Meta is.

100% agree

They should rework Havoc full for me. And make it to switch in and out of meta playstyle.
Fast in fast out in pvp as in pve.

You have 2 or 3 abilitys to generate fury. ( demonsbite, felblade, chaosstrike)
If you reach 70 or more fury you could use Eyebeam. This brakes our demonbefore and transfer us in demonform.
In Demonform we get all new ability.
All abilitys in Demonform produce fury but we loose every second x fury. If the fury reach 0 our demonform ends.

Eyebeam has no CD and does the same damage like in alpha atm, but in demonform it is our AE and ST massiv damage but burns also 20 fury.
Chaos strike produce fury and in demonform it also produce fury but it makes more damage like on live.
Demonsbite produce fury like on live but is of the GCD and in demonform it switch to demonsblade and has a 100% chance per hit to regenerate x fury.
Blade dance gets a full rework. It has a 15 sec cd . It produce a hugh amount of chaos damage, and in Demonform it produce 50 or more fury .

Talents must be reworked yes but it would be more fun and complex to play.

Rota could be:
Felblade
Bladedance
Chaosstrike spam
with reset felblade
Demonsbite spam
Eyebeam (meta procs)


deathswipe
Eyebeam
felblade on CD
annihilation
annihilation
deathswipe
Eyebeam


Reset

[Puupi]

People asking for Meta to be a stance that drains resource apparently didn't play demonology warlock a couple of years ago.

That was hell of fun.........oh wait....

[Ojocuervo]

Looking at the latest vengeance changes, I really like where it's going. One thing that concerns me slightly is what they're doing to Metamorphosis:



Am I reading this that we'll be sitting in Metamorphosis the entire time? Do we just lose the ability to see our gear? Meta as a CD is fun and feels like it matches class fantasy, but being a demon 100% of the time feels off.

Thoughts? Anyone on the Alpha able to confirm once it's live?

If you're playing vengeance you should be on meta most of the time. With weapon trait and 4p ABT, most of the time you're a black demon; guess they trying to make up for the artefact losse.

100% agree

They should rework Havoc full for me. And make it to switch in and out of meta playstyle.
Fast in fast out in pvp as in pve.

You have 2 or 3 abilitys to generate fury. ( demonsbite, felblade, chaosstrike)
If you reach 70 or more fury you could use Eyebeam. This brakes our demonbefore and transfer us in demonform.
In Demonform we get all new ability.
All abilitys in Demonform produce fury but we loose every second x fury. If the fury reach 0 our demonform ends.

Eyebeam has no CD and does the same damage like in alpha atm, but in demonform it is our AE and ST massiv damage but burns also 20 fury.
Chaos strike produce fury and in demonform it also produce fury but it makes more damage like on live.
Demonsbite produce fury like on live but is of the GCD and in demonform it switch to demonsblade and has a 100% chance per hit to regenerate x fury.
Blade dance gets a full rework. It has a 15 sec cd . It produce a hugh amount of chaos damage, and in Demonform it produce 50 or more fury .

Talents must be reworked yes but it would be more fun and complex to play.

Rota could be:
Felblade
Bladedance
Chaosstrike spam
with reset felblade
Demonsbite spam
Eyebeam (meta procs)


deathswipe
Eyebeam
felblade on CD
annihilation
annihilation
deathswipe
Eyebeam


Reset

A Voidform for DH? Doesn't seem to work for me.

[Tech614]

If you're playing vengeance you should be on meta most of the time. With weapon trait and 4p ABT, most of the time you're a black demon; guess they trying to make up for the artefact losse.

Most of the time is generous. Artifact procs are 1ppm and barely add much up time at all. Even with 4p in mythic+ extreme case examples you're only going to be around 50% up time if that. On ST, not even close to that.

[Deleted]

TBH I wish Havoc had this.


If Havoc had the old Demonology Meta then I think it would solve alot of issues. It would also fit the fantasy of surrendering to the demon form for as long as you build demonic fury.

They could make Meta more powerful too.

It was kinda sad in Legion that Chaos Blades is a stronger DPS cooldown than Meta is.

When first announced i was intrigued they were giving us this for spriest but always thought it was a perfect fit for both dh specs rather than boring purple fury and red fury.

After suffering through it on my spriest i can say it's a terrible system but could have worked so much better for dh simply because they were built WITHOUT it in mind.
Because of voidform spriests suffer in everything outside of raids, due to dh simplistic mechanics and toolkit that actually works in all content i think it would have been way better fit for dh and honestly would not be that much different to the current demonic build.

Plus it would actually allow meta to be nerfed so it was not just an op cd which would actually allow dh to have a more balanced and on par sustain similar to others instead of the nerfed garbage we got now because of how meta leech worked in pvp as a big cd.

[Deleted]

Remember - we're going back to Meta 4 min cooldown too.

BfA is going to be a joke.

How so? BfA talent tree is full of synergies that potentially can make your playstyle wildly different to the other DHs in your group. Demonic Dark Slash for huge burst windows every 30s with careful pooling inbetween to not waste that much fury with Blind Fury (we're back to 100 fury iirc), Momentum First Blood Trail of Ruin maximizing damage of Blade Dance and the dot that comes after it, Nemesis Cycle of Hatred making your burst windows less predictable and more reactive.

Add in Immolation Aura, Fel Barrage and you're in for some really high micro-decision based gameplay.

Not to mention we do get the current type of 'sustained' damage with more metas using talent versions of DoG and Anger, but weaker, or less burst oriented through dark slash/first blood and unfucked momentum.

We get legitimate choices. All that remains is numbers tuning, and time to ask for balance there will be once beta starts. The class will actually feel complete this time. What do you find a problem?

[Deleted]

We also lost AoE stun so there goes any kind of group utility.

If we aren't top 3 DPS why bring us?

Momentum will never work because of the way current raid encounters are designed.

5% increased magic damage is not bad as a group utility with magic damage being on more specs than physical.

Chaos Nova will now be used as an AoE interrupt, hopefully with some threshhold where it doesn't break since everything we do deals damage. But it still is an aoe interrupt able to give some breathing room and force channels on cooldown. Also a nice way to refill fury if using Appetite.

That momentum one is plain bullshit. I had no problems using it on M star augur or other NEVER MOVE bosses and never caused a grand trine. Eventually switched to nemesis for better damage with less though process even though it was boring as shit, but it certainly can work if you have enough spacial awareness and prepare for the fights.

Besides, you will still be able to play Demonic or Nemesis and never move. Probably even moreso than now given that current tuning suggests that talented Fel Rushes deal less total damage than poorly used other choices or even utility spells.

[Deleted]

We also lost AoE stun so there goes any kind of group utility.

If we aren't top 3 DPS why bring us?

Momentum will never work because of the way current raid encounters are designed.

Everyone is losing things like stuns, I'm a Frost DK and my AoE stun on a ~40 sec cd is gone. Get over it and quit the fucking hyperbolic doomsaying.

[Deleted]

I played momentum all through Emerald Nightmare.

High risk -> low reward.

The fact of the matter is. You constantly endanger yourself and your raid. Repeatedly. I don't care how good a player you are. Bugs occur and the chance for a "miss-play" are way higher than any other class/spec.

If you're playing Momentum you deserve to be top3.

High risk. HIGH reward.

If that's what you meant, I agree. Momentum is unique as you have to constantly reposition which gave some grounds towards an easy Rotation, but now that DH will have their rotation made more complex while some classes are getting easier, I see no reason for a person who excels at everything a DPS should excel at deal mid tier damage with risk being through the roof. Fight like KJ with massive downtimes will happen, but it should still be even for Momentum, since Nemesis is absolutely thoughless on ST without adds of the same type.

[ro9ue]

TBH I wish Havoc had this.


If Havoc had the old Demonology Meta then I think it would solve alot of issues. It would also fit the fantasy of surrendering to the demon form for as long as you build demonic fury.

They could make Meta more powerful too.

It was kinda sad in Legion that Chaos Blades is a stronger DPS cooldown than Meta is.

I also agree with this. I was hoping it was a build up, not just a flat CD.

[Deleted]

How so? BfA talent tree is full of synergies that potentially can make your playstyle wildly different to the other DHs in your group. Demonic Dark Slash for huge burst windows every 30s with careful pooling inbetween to not waste that much fury with Blind Fury (we're back to 100 fury iirc), Momentum First Blood Trail of Ruin maximizing damage of Blade Dance and the dot that comes after it, Nemesis Cycle of Hatred making your burst windows less predictable and more reactive.

Add in Immolation Aura, Fel Barrage and you're in for some really high micro-decision based gameplay.

Not to mention we do get the current type of 'sustained' damage with more metas using talent versions of DoG and Anger, but weaker, or less burst oriented through dark slash/first blood and unfucked momentum.

We get legitimate choices. All that remains is numbers tuning, and time to ask for balance there will be once beta starts. The class will actually feel complete this time. What do you find a problem?

if i make a grp and their is a monk or a DH that would join our grp. Both same itemlvl same xp , i dont know both of them. What class would i pick atm in bfa for a mythik+ or 3 vs 3 arena?

The monk . Why more cc more ae damage more St damage, more selfheal.
Monk loose nothing in Bfa he gets more he can spec his op artifakt has a ae stun, ae interupt , paralyse, his ae is not on a 30 sec CD. He has good ae and ST damage with the same spec. Also his Master works with all abilitys not only handfull like ours.

So the monk is the better DH in BfA. Why he could have his AE stun wihtout talents on 1 min cd without costs without talents for free. And we loose it. Also that demonic without the artifact weapon, without the head, without nemesis. It cant bring the same dps as nemes. Why they take Chaosblades away?

Remove blade Dance, all talents for blade dance work with eyebeam. Why? Because blade dance for me, feels not work well with the random first hit target less bull shit. Or they should rework it as full ae talent so we have 2 ae abilitys with short cd. But blade dance in ST feels not good for me. (sometimes you hit the boss sometimes a add, sometimes you hit a pvp player sometimes a pet etc. )
Buff eyebeam, more damage, reduce CD on 15 sec it could be interupt in pvp so no problem.
Make Felblade base line
Make Chaosnova a stun with no cost
switch immolation aura with fel mastery. Remove than fel mastery
switch blind fury with fel mastery. So you have two new talents in lvl 99.
Than bring 2 new heal talents in the lvl 99 row and let demonic apetite heal us again.
Bring back a good heal with souls or to use i dont care than DH has no problems



But should this not be in the BfA thread above ?

And sry for my realy bad english

[Saverem]

if i make a grp and their is a monk or a DH that would join our grp. Both same itemlvl same xp , i dont know both of them. What class would i pick atm in bfa for a mythik+ or 3 vs 3 arena?

The monk . Why more cc more ae damage more St damage, more selfheal.
Monk loose nothing in Bfa he gets more he can spec his op artifakt has a ae stun, ae interupt , paralyse, his ae is not on a 30 sec CD. He has good ae and ST damage with the same spec. Also his Master works with all abilitys not only handfull like ours.

So the monk is the better DH in BfA. Why he could have his AE stun wihtout talents on 1 min cd without costs without talents for free. And we loose it. Also that demonic without the artifact weapon, without the head, without nemesis. It cant bring the same dps as nemes. Why they take Chaosblades away?

Remove blade Dance, all talents for blade dance work with eyebeam. Why? Because blade dance for me, feels not work well with the random first hit target less bull shit. Or they should rework it as full ae talent so we have 2 ae abilitys with short cd. But blade dance in ST feels not good for me. (sometimes you hit the boss sometimes a add, sometimes you hit a pvp player sometimes a pet etc. )
Buff eyebeam, more damage, reduce CD on 15 sec it could be interupt in pvp so no problem.
Make Felblade base line
Make Chaosnova a stun with no cost
switch immolation aura with fel mastery. Remove than fel mastery
switch blind fury with fel mastery. So you have two new talents in lvl 99.
Than bring 2 new heal talents in the lvl 99 row and let demonic apetite heal us again.
Bring back a good heal with souls or to use i dont care than DH has no problems



But should this not be in the BfA thread above ?

And sry for my realy bad english

Why are you guys crying about Havoc DH in a Veng DH thread? Fuck on out of here and make your own Havoc thread to cry in. Also, DHs bring the 5% spell damage buff that no other class brings, they'll be more than fine in raids and M+. Now go away.


Now, as for THE ACTUAL TOPIC AT HAND:

I doubt it, that is just typical alpha changes. Most abilities are "Until cancelled" on it.

The only thing I'm finding weird for Veng right now is the Soul Frag change. I like that they now heal for 8% of damage taken in last 5s each. But they heal for only 1% of your HP min. That part doesn't coincide with the BDK's DS.

BDK's DS heals for 30% of damage taken in last 5s with 10% HP min. Our Soul Frags will heal us for 24% (because SC/SB now sucks in 3 frags at a time 8*3 = 24%) however, the minumum is still only 3% of our HP. They should bump up each Frag's minimum healing to 2% HP so we can heal for 24% of last 5s or 6% minimum to fall closer in line with the BDK's 10% minimum.

[Tech614]

BDK's DS heals for 30% of damage taken in last 5s with 10% HP min. Our Soul Frags will heal us for 24% (because SC/SB now sucks in 3 frags at a time 8*3 = 24%) however, the minumum is still only 3% of our HP. They should bump up each Frag's minimum healing to 2% HP so we can heal for 24% of last 5s or 6% minimum to fall closer in line with the BDK's 10% minimum.

Soul Cleave already has minimum healing baked into it, which is right around 10% of base hp... and if you talent spirit bomb that is a passive leech buff again offering minimum healing.

On top of this the blood tool kit doesn't offer any mitigation as strong as current alpha Demon Spikes.

You basically want massive double dipping, your cake and to eat it too.

[FelPlague]

Looking at the latest vengeance changes, I really like where it's going. One thing that concerns me slightly is what they're doing to Metamorphosis:



Am I reading this that we'll be sitting in Metamorphosis the entire time? Do we just lose the ability to see our gear? Meta as a CD is fun and feels like it matches class fantasy, but being a demon 100% of the time feels off.

Thoughts? Anyone on the Alpha able to confirm once it's live?

"for until cancelled" is a bug, it is usually in place of a "for x seconds" but in its very early phase.

[mickybrighteyes]

The "until cancelled" is 90% of the time a placeholder.

qft...

in some sources for live it states 'until cancelled' even if the skill has an obvious duration. Some places tell you that Power Infusion lasts until cancelled (it's a 20 second duration)

[FelPlague]

The "until cancelled" is 90% of the time a placeholder.

"for until canceled" is 100% allways a placeholder.
if it was not a place holder it would just say "transform a demon for until cancelled" no reason to add for unless you inteded to add a time later that needs to be balanced, and simply you dont want people to datamine it and get pissed off at "how op" or "how weak' it is, for example all the others are 0