Removing Shadow from Priests

[derpkitteh]

i would love it, honestly.

i would love a class that focuses on using void in a way that the ren'dorei are currently. i don't see my current priest as even a priest, i see her as a former warlock/mage that wants more void power.

so to actually have a class that treats void the way a warlock or mage treats fel or arcane, that would be amazing.

[Quack27]

Removing a specc because "people hate how it plays" is hardly a reason. You would go and rather re-work it. With almost every specc I went through on every class, there was a time when I "hated" it and didn't want to understand why they took the "fun" playstyle away.

Absolutely, but keep in mind it wouldn't be removed from the game but moved to a new class so that both play styles can exist.

Instead of reworking a single spec and only making one group happy with the playstyle, we could have old shadow with devouring plague and shadow orbs with a more deliberate pace and have the current playstyle with insanity drain and void form and a fast paced style.

I feel this would allow two different player bases to be happy because they both get their preferred style. The playstyles are certainly different enough to flesh out separate specs in my opinion.

[Lodreh]

I enjoy these little mental exercises... unfortunately I don't see how they could do it without ripping a couple classes apart. Not only are you ripping Shadow from Priest but mechanically you are taking lore from Warlocks and a lesser extent Death Knights. Now there is precedence from ripping classes apart... Demonology Warlocks in Mist played very similar to Havoc Demon Hunters minus Fel Rush, Glide, and Double Jump. Not saying it can't be done but there would have to be a strong reason to do so. Legion Artifacts and Class Halls also make this a very unlikely solution.

On Blood... Blood Mages in WoW are, as others pointed out, like Fire Mages + Destruction Warlocks... Kael'thas is probably the most famous Blood Mage. Blood Magic like what Death Knights use and what powers the Dark Animus is a corrupted form of Life magic. Apologies, I do not have the source.

[Quack27]

i would love it, honestly.

i would love a class that focuses on using void in a way that the ren'dorei are currently. i don't see my current priest as even a priest, i see her as a former warlock/mage that wants more void power.

so to actually have a class that treats void the way a warlock or mage treats fel or arcane, that would be amazing.

Yea i feel that there is certainly a group of players that only see their priest as shadow, and even npcs and in game factions reflect this.

This opinion certainly does not reflect all or even a majority probably of Priest players, but i definitely know a lot of people that only like the shadow fantasy of Priest separate from the rest of the class more so than i see other classes differences in class fantasy.

It's like someone else that posted even though DK is in a way a dark version of the Paladin, there is enough for DK to be a class instead of having it added to Paladins as the darker spec of the class which is how shadow feels as a priest spec to me.

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I enjoy these little mental exercises... unfortunately I don't see how they could do it without ripping a couple classes apart. Not only are you ripping Shadow from Priest but mechanically you are taking lore from Warlocks and a lesser extent Death Knights. Now there is precedence from ripping classes apart... Demonology Warlocks in Mist played very similar to Havoc Demon Hunters minus Fel Rush, Glide, and Double Jump. Not saying it can't be done but there would have to be a strong reason to do so. Legion Artifacts and Class Halls also make this a very unlikely solution.

On Blood... Blood Mages in WoW are, as others pointed out, like Fire Mages + Destruction Warlocks... Kael'thas is probably the most famous Blood Mage. Blood Magic like what Death Knights use and what powers the Dark Animus is a corrupted form of Life magic. Apologies, I do not have the source.

I feel that old shadow and current shadow are so different that there is plenty there to make two full specs without taking things from other classes.

A void spec would be akin to current shadow, and a shadow spec would be older shadow with devouring plague, shadow orbs etc. Wouldn't have to steal from others, just bring back what already existed.

And keep in mind I'm not talking about Warcraft three Blood Mage, but more like the bleeding hollow orcs, blood troll, etc type of blood magic. Very different things in my opinion.

[yoma]

Well, few things on this.

1) New classes are generally bad ideas. WoW isn't maplestory, they try (poorly) to balance classes, and lets face it, a new ball to juggle is a terrible choice in terms of balance.

2) Completely removing a spec hasn't been done before, and I'm pretty sure it would piss people off significantly.

3) Shadow and void are basically the same thing now.

4) pulling blood would be a rip from blood dks (or so people would complain).

This means that a new class would be a pretty bad choice, not to mention in nu-horde and sure as hell in alliance, they wouldn't embrace a cultist type zealot.

--PERSONALLY--

I don't mind the idea. From how you're explaining things I get a vibe of Zealots from Warhammer's mmo where they would curse themselves and transfer the curses to enemies, or take dots on friendlies and put them on enemies, or steal heals, or be able to heal their alies based on the curses they send on foes and such. Would be interesting on those aspects.

That being said, I still feel like adding a new class right now would be a poor choice since blizz has been shit at managing the classes now. Maybe we should be asking for more glyphs, where we could turn shadow (through glyphs) into holy damaging abilities.

All four of your points are negated by Demon Hunters.

1) Were Demon Hunters a bad idea? Subjective.

2) Demonology Warlocks say hello. The name of the spec wasn't removed, but its entire identity was, and then partially given to, you guessed it, Demon Hunters.

3) Shadow magic is seperate from the void, at least in terms of gameplay. Affliction warlocks were way deeper in shadow magic that priests and they didnt start sprouting tentacles everytime they cast corruption or agony.

4) See again Demonology warlocks and Demon Hunters. If Blizz wants to gut one spec to build a new class, they can and will. They did get backlash from the warlock community quite heavily, so that might dissuade them, but let's be real, this is Blizzard. They say they know what is best and we have to roll with it.

I could seriously see them doing something like this when the full-on Void expansion rolls around, in the very same manner they implemented Demon Hunters. Gut Shadow priests, toss them some Holy Light dps spec, and then build a 2 spec Voidmancer class.

[NiftySwifty]

I enjoy these little mental exercises... unfortunately I don't see how they could do it without ripping a couple classes apart. Not only are you ripping Shadow from Priest but mechanically you are taking lore from Warlocks and a lesser extent Death Knights. Now there is precedence from ripping classes apart... Warlocks Demonology in Mist played very similar to Havoc Demon Hunters minus Fel Rush, Glide, and Double Jump. Not saying it can't be done but there would have to be a strong reason to do so. Legion Artifacts and Class Halls also make this a very unlikely solution.

On Blood... Blood Mages in WoW are, as others pointed out, like Fire Mages + Destruction Warlocks... Kael'thas is probably the most famous Blood Mage. Blood Magic like what Death Knights use and what powers the Dark Animus is a corrupted form of Life magic. Apologies, I do not have the source.

True, But plenty of other classes borrow from other classes power anyway too.

Paladin uses priest source of light.
Demon Hunters use Fel-energy that is used by Warlocks
Rogues use shadow magic for stealth which is a Spriest thing.
Frost DKs use Frost Mage power
Destruction Warlocks use a different type of Fire than Fire Mages.

So borrowing elements from other classes really isn't too bad. Especially since Blood Trolls are so prominent in BfA. And the Blood Magic here is different from the Blood Mages. This is actual blood being used, similar to the Blood DK but used in a ranged dps or even healing way.

[Lodreh]

...And keep in mind I'm not talking about Warcraft three Blood Mage, but more like the bleeding hollow orcs, blood troll, etc type of blood magic. Very different things in my opinion.

Agreed... I was supporting your assessment of using Blood Magic... however, it use is squarely in the domain of Death Knights right now so they may feel a slight burn in sharing.

I also agree that old Shadow played very different from new Shadow... and even though you may prefer the old to the new the evolution of a spec does not necessarily give enough abilities to warrant two distinct specs. The reason old Shadow lost Devouring Plague is more to class fantasy than mechanics. Plague is more in line with Affliction Warlocks and to a lesser extent Unholy Death Knights. That's the perception you'll have to fight... not the mechanics but the lore and the theme that each class brings to the table.

[derpkitteh]

Sounds mainly like a Lore thing to change this?

that's what should dictate new classes. that should happen much more often.

if it were me in charge, that's what would decide things.

[Lodreh]

...So borrowing elements from other classes really isn't too bad. Especially since Blood Trolls are so prominent in BfA. And the Blood Magic here is different from the Blood Mages. This is actual blood being used, similar to the Blood DK but used in a ranged dps or even healing way.

Did no one read the entire paragraph?

... Blood Magic like what Death Knights use and what powers the Dark Animus is a corrupted form of Life magic...

[Akibaboy]

I think Priest just needs versions - normal / all shadow / all light. Each have the exact same abilities but different colors / names of them - like Heroism and Bloodlust and the way green fire works.

Races that are Light-only priests: Lightforged Draenei, Blood Elves (considering their recent "wtf void!" development)
Races that are Shadow-only priests: Void Elves, Undead (which would solve the stupid hand-wave issue Blizzard has had to do with them using the light "but it hurts")
Races that have normal priests: Everyone else

[Quack27]

Well...you wouldn't know if people automatically love the new light ranged dps play style....and then you add a new class (that not many ask for...try Tinker) and have to invent new speccs for that class - with all the balancing issues

Sounds mainly like a Lore thing to change this?

Oh for sure there would be people that don't like the the light based dps caster, i just wonder if possibly people that primarily like holy and discipline may enjoy having a light based dps instead of shadow based.

I personally enjoy new classes being added even though it makes balancing more difficult, but that of course differs from person to person.

I too would enjoy something akin to tinker, but i have a slightly different take on it. So far my post has been treated respectfully even though there are certainly those that disagree, so maybe ill be encouraged to share my spin on tinker in another thread.

I don't believe it is a lore change only. I feel there is plenty of gameplay diversity between old and new shadow to justify the specs as I've outlined in other responses.

To be a good class it needs the lore and gameplay, and believe both exist in this case.

[Christan]

I’d rather a true light dps spec be a fourth spec than replacing shadow, they should give druid treatment to all classes
(what, think our artifacts took less ap since we had 4 not 3?)
Yeah, give all the other classes that kind of irritation. >.> trying to reverse psycholgy blizz, is it working?

Edit:
Or it could be a talent that toggles spell effects, it’d be a shadow priest...that just looks holy’ish?
The way they could seperate it is, light talent buffs crit and vers, shadow buffs haste and mastery?
Also direct damage buffed for light and dots for shadow talents?

Ehh lots of possibilities, i think we all need a fourth spec though.
Inc hunter spec...trapper....entrapment... ther specs could get 1/3 traps as a talent, trapper gets em all and bonuses including critical traps(increases pt crit on target, mastery trap-dodge slw moving balls that inc mastery by x%/s unless hit, stacking...fungal trap-covers enemies in bioluminescent spores making them easier to see -5 stealth, reduced armor/spellresist. Like faeries fire
ehh w/e...war could get godmode(not literally just a name)
“You are able to envision your target and your weapons with godlike accuracy(spec about throwing your weapons, as boomerangs, at enemies, ranged war!

Ehh getting carried away with some lunacy this is about priests XD

[Quack27]

Agreed... I was supporting your assessment of using Blood Magic... however, it use is squarely in the domain of Death Knights right now so they may feel a slight burn in sharing.

I also agree that old Shadow played very different from new Shadow... and even though you may prefer the old to the new the evolution of a spec does not necessarily give enough abilities to warrant two distinct specs. The reason old Shadow lost Devouring Plague is more to class fantasy than mechanics. Plague is more in line with Affliction Warlocks and to a lesser extent Unholy Death Knights. That's the perception you'll have to fight... not the mechanics but the lore and the theme that each class brings to the table.

Ok, i understand that the idea of completely making new kits could bleed into other specs fantasy, but I'm not sure you would need to do that here.

I realize that other specs have vastly different named abilities, but because the shadow and void playstyles are so different maybe having all these different named abilities wouldn't matter as much?

For example, would people hate it that much if mind flay and mind blast were in both specs, but the abilities that surround them and gameplay style of deliberate versus fast paced separated the specs?

Shadow could have the traditional dots, use mind blast and mind flay to build insanity, and then spend insanity on devouring plague. That would be the core for that spec.

Void would forgo dots, use mind flay and mind blast for insanity, then use insanity for void form, void bolt.

Of course those are just cores to be fleshed out, but i feel it's more than reasonable.

Do you think it's ok for two specs to share a coupe of abilities as long as the gameplay is vastly different?

Is it a requirement to make two new filler spells so that both don't use mind flay and blast? It wouldn't bother me, but what does everyone else feel?

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I’d rather a true light dps spec be a fourth spec than replacing shadow, they should give druid treatment to all classes
(what, think our artifacts took less ap since we had 4 not 3?)
Yeah, give all the other classes that kind of irritation. >.> trying to reverse psycholgy blizz, is it working?


Ehh lots of possibilities, i think we all need a fourth spec.
Ehh getting carried away with some lunacy this is about priests XD

Haha, thanks for realizing that maybe the fourth spec thing is a different discussion.

A fourth priest spec is a quick fix for something lacking in game, but then it feels to me like "Oh look, priests are even more light based than before, but shadow is still here on its own not fitting in lol"

[Lodreh]

...Do you think it's ok for two specs to share a coupe of abilities as long as the gameplay is vastly different?

Is it a requirement to make two new filler spells so that both don't use mind flay and blast? It wouldn't bother me, but what does everyone else feel?...

Honestly I feel that classes should have core spells shared across all specs. That's the class identity. Give flavor through how you use those spells or add effects to them. Using Warlocks as an example... I would prefer it if for AoE all Warlocks had Rain of Fire. If Affliction spec it became Rain of Corrupting Fire which applied Corruption to all targets... Demonology became Rain of Fel Fire which could proc short lived Infernals... Destruction became Rain of Immolating Fire which applied Immolation to targets. The core fantasy is intact the spec just adds the effects.

[Quack27]

Honestly I feel that classes should have core spells shared across all specs. That's the class identity. Give flavor through how you use those spells or add effects to them. Using Warlocks as an example... I would prefer it if for AoE all Warlocks had Rain of Fire. If Affliction spec it became Rain of Corrupting Fire which applied Corruption to all targets... Demonology became Rain of Fel Fire which could proc short lived Infernals... Destruction became Rain of Immolating Fire which applied Immolation to targets. The core fantasy is intact the spec just adds the effects.

Ok, so if it is ok for specs to share core abilities throughout a class then do you believe there is enough to create a separate shadow and void spec without stealing a lot from other classes?

[Fyersing]

[SNIP]

I've been a huge fan of 2-spec/4-spec classes since they implemented Demon Hunter -- with classes whose origins are extremely specialized having 2, and those whose are generalized having 4.

As this pertains to Priests, this might look like this:

Priest: Holy & Discipline (rDPS)
"Cultist": Shadow & Void (rDPS)

[NiftySwifty]

A fourth priest spec is a quick fix for something lacking in game, but then it feels to me like "Oh look, priests are even more light based than before, but shadow is still here on its own not fitting in lol"

Well there may be one fix they could do with a 4th spec. Have it as a physhic/old god spec. That way Shadow could use pure Void/shadow magic, without the taint of Old Gods and those that like the Old God lore could be the 4th spec that actually wants to worship the Old Gods and give them the Mind Control, Psychic/mind abilities and maybe a few new abilities relating to them.

After all Void≠Old Gods.

The legion class preview of shadow priests even say that Spriests"...derive their power from the Void, straying dangerously close to the domain of the Old Gods."
We could have a spec that goes straight to the Old Gods and gets their power from them.

[Deleted]

I have to say, I really like the concept, and it would be really nice to see it working. But I see some problems. Not from the class balance/design point of view (which, knowing Blizzard, will be always a problem), but from the character creation/roleplay.
1: How we solve the problems with existing characters?
There is a lot of people who(as me) created a priest mainly for the shadow spec. Yes, we have tried the other specs, but we main the shadow variant. So how this change would affect us? My character is a shadow priest, now would it change to a Heretic/Cultist? That would be something completely new in Wow. We have seen race changes, faction changes, but we haven't seen class changes. So how we solve this? Maybe there is an option where you can choose if your Priest keeps prasing the light or "falls to the dark side" and became and Heretic, but still is a really new idea and sounds a bit wierd even to me.
2: How about the race/class combinations?
Well, lets imagine the first point is solved. We find another one. and that is not every race which can be a Priest fits into the Heretic concept. And the other way around. Indeed, some races (as void elves and undead) has the option of being a Priest just because the shadow spec (though the undead had an explanation about the use of light lorewise).
How could we solve this? Let's imagine I have my nigth elf shadow priest since the beggining of Wow. But Nigth elves don't fit the Heretic idea at all. Should I need to change to the ligth spec? Or be forced to race change?
3: Class Hall problem
Ok, these one is less important and there is a really easy way to solve it, and it's folding the netherlight temple into the Class Hall of both Priest and Cultist (is a place where priests of every religions congregates, so it fits). That would be the easiest way of solving it, but still will bring some problems and inconsistency.

For the moment those are the problems I see. Don't misjudge me, I like the idea and I have already imagined how the race/class combinations would be:

Alliance: Most of the races which can be Priests fit into the Heretic/Culstist concept, overall into the shadow/void part. The blood one doesn't fit so much though.

Humans: Not sure, but they fit into the shadow cultist idea even in the blood one, see below.
Dwarves:They don't really fit apart from the cultist, but could be.
Gnomes: Crazy cultists. I see them perfectly.
Worgen: The same as before.
Dark Iron: They fit perfectly, apart from the blood part.
Void elves: No need to explain.

Horde: In the Horde the whole concept fits way better, with orcs and trolls being the most benefited.

Orcs: Shadowmoon and Bleeding Hollow clans delve into the void/blood respectively. We don't need more.
Trolls. If someone needs an explanation here they should check again their troll lore.
Forsaken: Mostly the same as before.
Blood elves: Fit in both ideas. See below.
Goblins: Could be. If there is money into it, it can fit.
Zandalari: Could be, overall with Ghuun, though probably it would be a forbidden cult.

And as an extra: There is some people who have talked about blood mages being a combination of fire mage+destruction warlock.
You are correct, but also in warcraft, the blood magic exists and there is some kind of mages which use it. Annnd, they are also called blood mages. This confusion is mainly Blizzard's fault for not checking their names.
We have seen these mages into the Defias brotherhood, and also into the Blasted Lands in the form of some blood elves who study the blood magic, and who are called (surprise surprise) blood mages. But they are a different blood mage from the ones we saw in Warcraft 3.

So, as a conclussion. I really like the idea, lorewise I think it could fit perfectly and I don't see so many problems with the desing (apart than the fact that is Blizzard the one behind the balance of it).
But still it would create some problems we have never faced, and it could be challenging to solve them. And even with the best idea some people would feel quite pissed of for being forced to change the story of their character.

[Quack27]

I have to say, I really like the concept, and it would be really nice to see it working. But I see some problems. Not from the class balance/design point of view (which, knowing Blizzard, will be always a problem), but from the character creation/roleplay.
1: How we solve the problems with existing characters?
There is a lot of people who(as me) created a priest mainly for the shadow spec. Yes, we have tried the other specs, but we main the shadow variant. So how this change would affect us? My character is a shadow priest, now would it change to a Heretic/Cultist? That would be something completely new in Wow. We have seen race changes, faction changes, but we haven't seen class changes. So how we solve this? Maybe there is an option where you can choose if your Priest keeps prasing the light or "falls to the dark side" and became and Heretic, but still is a really new idea and sounds a bit wierd even to me.
2: How about the race/class combinations?
Well, lets imagine the first point is solved. We find another one. and that is not every race which can be a Priest fits into the Heretic concept. And the other way around. Indeed, some races (as void elves and undead) has the option of being a Priest just because the shadow spec (though the undead had an explanation about the use of light lorewise).
How could we solve this? Let's imagine I have my nigth elf shadow priest since the beggining of Wow. But Nigth elves don't fit the Heretic idea at all. Should I need to change to the ligth spec? Or be forced to race change?
3: Class Hall problem
Ok, these one is less important and there is a really easy way to solve it, and it's folding the netherlight temple into the Class Hall of both Priest and Cultist (is a place where priests of every religions congregates, so it fits). That would be the easiest way of solving it, but still will bring some problems and inconsistency.

For the moment those are the problems I see. Don't misjudge me, I like the idea and I have already imagined how the race/class combinations would be:

Alliance: Most of the races which can be Priests fit into the Heretic/Culstist concept, overall into the shadow/void part. The blood one doesn't fit so much though.

Humans: Not sure, but they fit into the shadow cultist idea even in the blood one, see below.
Dwarves:They don't really fit apart from the cultist, but could be.
Gnomes: Crazy cultists. I see them perfectly.
Worgen: The same as before.
Dark Iron: They fit perfectly, apart from the blood part.
Void elves: No need to explain.

Horde: In the Horde the whole concept fits way better, with orcs and trolls being the most benefited.

Orcs: Shadowmoon and Bleeding Hollow clans delve into the void/blood respectively. We don't need more.
Trolls. If someone needs an explanation here they should check again their troll lore.
Forsaken: Mostly the same as before.
Blood elves: Fit in both ideas. See below.
Goblins: Could be. If there is money into it, it can fit.
Zandalari: Could be, overall with Ghuun, though probably it would be a forbidden cult.

And as an extra: There is some people who have talked about blood mages being a combination of fire mage+destruction warlock.
You are correct, but also in warcraft, the blood magic exists and there is some kind of mages which use it. Annnd, they are also called blood mages. This confusion is mainly Blizzard's fault for not checking their names.
We have seen these mages into the Defias brotherhood, and also into the Blasted Lands in the form of some blood elves who study the blood magic, and who are called (surprise surprise) blood mages. But they are a different blood mage from the ones we saw in Warcraft 3.

So, as a conclussion. I really like the idea, lorewise I think it could fit perfectly and I don't see so many problems with the desing (apart than the fact that is Blizzard the one behind the balance of it).
But still it would create some problems we have never faced, and it could be challenging to solve them. And even with the best idea some people would feel quite pissed of for being forced to change the story of their character.

I had thought of these issues, but not in-depth yet.

I think it's reasonable that blizzard could give you the option to have your priest be the new priest or be free class changed into cultist. And then of course there is the new expansion character boost.

As far as races i think they would have to of course decide who could be priests and who could be cultists/heretics, but peoples pre existing priest could stay.

For example, no new dranei cultists/ heretics could be created, but if you chose to change your pre existing dranei priest into a cultist/ heretic then you could.

It would be a way to keep the legacy for pre existing players. Lore wise their character was around before the "schism" so to speak.

[Oneirophobia]

Yea definitely not Warcraft 3 blood mage. More like bleeding hollow orc and what i expect to see from the new troll area.

And i 100 percent agree on it being weird to be a shadow priest in game dealing with the light priests.

It's weird to be shadow and deal with the void and old gods so you'd rather be a blood priest and... deal with the void and old gods?

The blood trolls have to do with the old gods.