Grom's (Possible) Return - Yes or No?

[Venziir]

Well, one of the Mag'har orc silly emotes mentions "Warchief Hellscream" so... I'd assume we'll meet him again.

[Thage]

All of this is due to game mechanics making it unable to tell a decent story. Every villain we will ever face will be incompetent because of the need for us to be victorious. We will constantly gain deus ex machina powers or the enemy will be retarded, it's one or the other.

I dunno. They did a good job with Arthas and Garrosh. Arthas had the Alliance and Horde on the ropes for about a month before Putress came up with a vaccine/counteragent (I don't remember offhand precisely which it was). Even in Northrend proper it took a significant amount of time to push back, and with substantial losses to both factions (both to the Scourge and to Putress's faction), culminating in needing to slowly push through and establish a forward operating base in Icecrown Citadel. And even after all that, the only reason he didn't win in the end is because Tirion managed to break free and shatter Frostmourne. I'd say that's a well-written villain who didn't just fuck up everywhere you turned--Arthas remained a constant threat right up until his health bar was nearly depleted.

Coversely, for the longest time Garrosh enjoyed the benefits of being a player race leader. Despite a lack of long-term strategy (barring his plan at Theramore), Garrosh's blitzes won the Horde early in his reign. Once he became an outright villain in MoP, again, his strategy (zerg first and figure it out later) won the Horde some fairly major victories; even Wrathion admitted the Horde likely would have won the war if it weren't for Garrosh's policies and edicts as Warchief fracturing the Horde to the point of civil war. And again, he remained a major threat right up until the end of the fight against him, and even nearly beat Thrall to death barefisted (the only reason he won being due to Thrall cheating in Mak'gora and trying to exploit a loophole to bring the elements to bear after being disarmed). Again, a villain who remained threatening to his allies and enemies alike but clearly made gains and knew what he was doing militarily.

Grom, on the other hand, consistently lost because he is not a leader. Even back in Warcraft 3, every time he was on-screen he needed Thrall to bail him out of trouble of his own making. That he finds himself on the losing end of a thorough ass-beating isn't the result of player plot armor, it's the result of Grom's long-established, fully canon incompetence. He didn't have MMO players keeping him incompetent back in WC3, after all.

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He was defeated and it was left to us, cause he was beaten. And he never got fucked up in Draenor by Garrosh, and beat him, and no he didnt cheat to win. He isnt a coward.

He did cheat. Do the Enhancement Shaman Doomhammer questline. Thrall outright says that the elements feel he violated the spirit of a Mak'gora, hence why they no longer answer his call and why the Doomhammer feels heavy and dead in his hands when all shaman do the class order intro storyline, and he exits stage left after helping you recover the Doomhammer in order to do some soul-searching. He also did get fucked up by Garrosh--Garry had the consistent upper hand in their duel because for all his many, many, many flaws, Garrosh is a pretty competent fighter while Thrall has been heavily reliant on his shamanic abilities since being taught shamanism prior to Warcraft 3--he grew up a trained warrior but Garrosh kept his skills sharp while Thrall let them languish.

[Saluna]

Durotan for Warchief.

[Goremonger]

Grom gets sent through the portal to our azeroth and teams up with Magatha, he starts the Gromtotem and attacks from feralas starting the new expansion. Only way for grom coming back to make any sense.

[Enkrypt]

Absolutely yes!

He's the last Hellscream alive and there is no better Orc to lead the Horde after Sylvanas is killed off for good.

This guy gets it.

Hating on the AU, I feel, has become trendy.

Bring that Hellscream back.

[Kellorion]

I dunno. They did a good job with Arthas and Garrosh. Arthas had the Alliance and Horde on the ropes for about a month before Putress came up with a vaccine/counteragent (I don't remember offhand precisely which it was). Even in Northrend proper it took a significant amount of time to push back, and with substantial losses to both factions (both to the Scourge and to Putress's faction), culminating in needing to slowly push through and establish a forward operating base in Icecrown Citadel. And even after all that, the only reason he didn't win in the end is because Tirion managed to break free and shatter Frostmourne. I'd say that's a well-written villain who didn't just fuck up everywhere you turned--Arthas remained a constant threat right up until his health bar was nearly depleted.

Coversely, for the longest time Garrosh enjoyed the benefits of being a player race leader. Despite a lack of long-term strategy (barring his plan at Theramore), Garrosh's blitzes won the Horde early in his reign. Once he became an outright villain in MoP, again, his strategy (zerg first and figure it out later) won the Horde some fairly major victories; even Wrathion admitted the Horde likely would have won the war if it weren't for Garrosh's policies and edicts as Warchief fracturing the Horde to the point of civil war. And again, he remained a major threat right up until the end of the fight against him, and even nearly beat Thrall to death barefisted (the only reason he won being due to Thrall cheating in Mak'gora and trying to exploit a loophole to bring the elements to bear after being disarmed). Again, a villain who remained threatening to his allies and enemies alike but clearly made gains and knew what he was doing militarily.

Grom, on the other hand, consistently lost because he is not a leader. Even back in Warcraft 3, every time he was on-screen he needed Thrall to bail him out of trouble of his own making. That he finds himself on the losing end of a thorough ass-beating isn't the result of player plot armor, it's the result of Grom's long-established, fully canon incompetence. He didn't have MMO players keeping him incompetent back in WC3, after all.

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He did cheat. Do the Enhancement Shaman Doomhammer questline. Thrall outright says that the elements feel he violated the spirit of a Mak'gora, hence why they no longer answer his call and why the Doomhammer feels heavy and dead in his hands when all shaman do the class order intro storyline, and he exits stage left after helping you recover the Doomhammer in order to do some soul-searching. He also did get fucked up by Garrosh--Garry had the consistent upper hand in their duel because for all his many, many, many flaws, Garrosh is a pretty competent fighter while Thrall has been heavily reliant on his shamanic abilities since being taught shamanism prior to Warcraft 3--he grew up a trained warrior but Garrosh kept his skills sharp while Thrall let them languish.

And none of Kosak writing of that makes any damn sense what so ever. The elements, that respect Thrall and were tortured by Garrosh, would suddenly hate the fact that he killed Garrosh?!?
Ohhhhh he cheated, thats right, cause all mak'gora must be fist fights and use swords and boards, regardless of whether on of the participants is trained to do that or not. And thats also never been stated anywhere.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

All of this is due to game mechanics making it unable to tell a decent story. Every villain we will ever face will be incompetent because of the need for us to be victorious. We will constantly gain deus ex machina powers or the enemy will be retarded, it's one or the other.

The Iron Horde was just an army of orcs. We should have been able to beat them in a straight fight without a war on 3 fronts.

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Well, one of the Mag'har orc silly emotes mentions "Warchief Hellscream" so... I'd assume we'll meet him again.

It mentions him in the past tense.

[Syegfryed]

The Iron Horde was just an army of orcs. We should have been able to beat them in a straight fight without a war on 3 fronts.

it was rly not just an army of orcs...

It mentions him in the past tense.

because the hair paint was in the past

[Zorgulon]

No.
I love Grom! Would love for him to be in the game, but that is not OUR Grom. Our Grom died a heroic death. Bringing him back just doesn't feel right.
The new Grom didn't even get any character development! He was either our enemy (most of the time) or a sudden ally.
Our Grom is dead. He died a hero. He should stay dead and be remembered as one.
#NotMyHellscream

[AwkwardSquirtle]

it was rly not just an army of orcs...

Ok, an army of orcs with bigger sticks then usual. Irrelevant when we had goblins making us literal tactical nukes during WoD.

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because the hair paint was in the past

Sure, I'm not saying he's not coming back, I'm saying that that quote alone doesn't definitively say he will be.

[Varitok]

This guy gets it.

Hating on the AU, I feel, has become trendy.

Bring that Hellscream back.

I never met a single person who enjoyed the AU.

[Syegfryed]

Ok, an army of orcs with bigger sticks then usual. Irrelevant when we had goblins making us literal tactical nukes during WoD.
.

its n arm of orcs with high Technology, destructive massive weapons, grons, ogres mages from Goria, elementals, and all kind of beasts they enslave, it was a fucking huge army

[AwkwardSquirtle]

its n arm of orcs with high Technology, destructive massive weapons, grons, ogres mages from Goria, elementals, and all kind of beasts they enslave, it was a fucking huge army

we had our own WMDs and we've been killing Gronn since BC.

[Thage]

And none of Kosak writing of that makes any damn sense what so ever. The elements, that respect Thrall and were tortured by Garrosh, would suddenly hate the fact that he killed Garrosh?!?
Ohhhhh he cheated, thats right, cause all mak'gora must be fist fights and use swords and boards, regardless of whether on of the participants is trained to do that or not. And thats also never been stated anywhere.

A mak'gora is an honor duel, not a "use any and every means at your disposal" duel. Unless Garrosh agreed to Thrall using the elements in their duel, then using them was cheating as he sidestepped the traditional rules as observed by the orcs prior to the formation of Thrall's Horde (the rules Garrosh reinstated): one weapon per combatant, leave it where it lay if you drop it, to the death. By breaking those rules, Thrall violated an honor duel and the elements are stricklers for principle, hence why shamans must ask for their aid or risk either corrupting the elements or, as Thrall found out, getting on their shit list. Even the conniving goblins have to make good on the deals struck.

[Dastreus]

Please no. Can we just pretend WoD didn't happen? Grom should be FUCKING DEAD for the atrocities he committed. Yrel said she'd help us, and no Yrel in Legion.

[Kellorion]

A mak'gora is an honor duel, not a "use any and every means at your disposal" duel. Unless Garrosh agreed to Thrall using the elements in their duel, then using them was cheating as he sidestepped the traditional rules as observed by the orcs prior to the formation of Thrall's Horde (the rules Garrosh reinstated): one weapon per combatant, leave it where it lay if you drop it, to the death. By breaking those rules, Thrall violated an honor duel and the elements are stricklers for principle, hence why shamans must ask for their aid or risk either corrupting the elements or, as Thrall found out, getting on their shit list. Even the conniving goblins have to make good on the deals struck.

And also the fact it wasnt Mak'gora wasnt the full and proper ritual. And was in the heat of the moment, and their bodies nor weapons were properly prepared by a shaman elder.

But of course, off screen, Garry called no powers or thats cheatz, k, and Thrall was like K bro, but then he went all douche and cheated.

[Dastreus]

People seem to have no clue that AU Grom isn't MU Grom and didn't drink the demon blood and do all the horrific shit. The AU portal wasn't powered by Draenei souls, there was no attempted genocide, just normal ass warfare.

Wrong. The AU portal was powered by Frostwolf orc souls and Draenei. The Shadow Council were really just conduits/circuits.

[Dastreus]

Grom only attacked us because garrosh told him we were evil and honorless. He told Grom all the truth, but they were half truths to make him want to fight. As for the draenei, he also said they can not be trusted and are planning the orcs demise, the iron horde was only evil because of garrosh and gul Dan after words, Grom thought he was the good guy when he attacked

Yeah, so sacrificing people and enslaving others, totally a thing a good person does when they fear death.

[Thage]

And also the fact it wasnt Mak'gora wasnt the full and proper ritual. And was in the heat of the moment, and their bodies nor weapons were properly prepared by a shaman elder.

But of course, off screen, Garry called no powers or thats cheatz, k, and Thrall was like K bro, but then he went all douche and cheated.

Get salty if you want. Currently, it's canon (do the shaman questline in Legion) that Thrall cheated in the Mak'gora, and because of this the elements no longer answer his calls and the Doomhammer was leaden in his grasp. And even in the heat of the moment, it would be implicit that the traditional rules would be observed. Otherwise there's no point to Thrall and Garrosh calling it a Mak'gora rather than just asking us to chill and watch them beat the hell out of each other.

I'm sorry if you need things spelled out to you in third-grade exposition. I figured that there were certain things implicit in a Mak'gora that didn't need to be said, like a DM understands a rogue in D&D will drop their backpack before going into stealth to avoid massive penalties.

[Deleted]

There are no rules in a traditional Mak'gora about a duel between a warrior and a shaman. A shaman wasn't supposed to take part in a Mak'gora, because he was never a chieftain, he was an advisor to the chieftain. Which is why even Ner'zhul and Gul'dan kept a puppet Warchief, even though the Warchief thing itself was new. Only a warrior could lead, a shaman has to care about the inner workings of the world, the elements and the spirits, he has no business sticking his nose into politics, only to advise if the politics interfered with the spirits or the chieftain asked for the help of the elements in a battle, which only the shaman could actually ask for. Which is something Aggra has tried to hammer into Thrall's brain since Cata. Maybe the elements decided, he should now finally know better and that's why they are reluctant to follow his call.

Edit:
And I voted no, because Grom f***** up too many times already. He's cool and all, but he's not fit to lead anything more than a small warband if you want to have a world left after a war.