Do you want titanforging removed?

[alexchaos]

Why is that important?

If it's not important then there's no purpose to TF other than making you wear gear not optimized for your spec simply because of Ilvl inflation.

[Magicon]

The people actually in a position to reach that point are not the ones complaining about reaching that point generally. We would actually appreciate just reaching a point of being done and not having to worry about gear anymore for a few months. Go hard for a few weeks/months(depending on the guild), then be able to just relax, as you said.

Yeah, it is 50/50. I know I am one of those myself I was gonna write that many players would complain, cause they do not know what else to do in the game except gearing up and progressing their main. ( I always feel like those players are more of the newer type of the playerbase )

[Revamp Man]

Given that you clearly missed the idea entirely, you can't really comment on whether it is awful or not....

The idea was never to make lesser content mandatory and thus push people to do it even when they have no real interest in it. It is to make that content more rewarding for those who do have an interest in doing it. The problem is purely with players who lack the ability to take a realistic perspective on the system. Honestly, there is absolutely zero reason why any Mythic Raider, for example, should ever feel compelled to run LFR for the chance at winning a possible TF upgrade. Firstly the odds are of actually getting an upgrade at all are pretty small to start out with. Secondly even if you do manage to get an upgrade, it's unlike to make a significant difference. The odds of getting a meaningful upgrade are so astronomically small that you'd be far better off finding other ways of spending your time if you actually want to achieve some kind of progression.

TL;DR: Just because there is a chance of getting that upgrade, doesn't mean you have a serious incentive to pursue it.




Gearing has always had RNG.



While I personally quite liked the VP system, it was far from perfect. For a start you had people complaining that they were forced to run scenarios, heroic dungeons and daily quests to grind their VP cap every week. And then there was always the issue of not wanting to waste VP on an upgrade unless you had your BiS piece....

Secondly, just because TF is "random" doesn't mean you can't work towards it. With the way that gear can be traded, and given the number of slots and number of bosses in the raid, across a guild, gear upgrades happen at a fairly predictable rate.

What you can't do is operate in checklist mode where you can tick off each item slot for BiS and then declare that you're done. But then again I think that was a pretty bad system to start with.

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Why is that important?

ill give 3 points

1. it makes BiS lists disappear and thus you never feel "complete" with your character

2. with TF being the way it is you get the blast furnace situation where items are being disenchanted from progression bosses because little jimmy already got TF

3. with the ilvl lock since blizz decided players are too weak minded to not trade upgrades TF means i can get a piece that is useless for me but a huge upgrade for another player in my group and i cant trade it because its a higher ilvl than the gear i have (if it wasnt for my legendary trinket being in my bag last raid i couldnt have traded my groups new tank the tank trinket because it was 965 the second highest ilvl trinket i had)

its good for a majority of the players but its not really something noticable

[Gaidax]

Gearing never had this degree of RNG, which is the problem. The item had to drop, end of story. Now it has to drop and WF/TF to a decent level in addition. And TF was definitely intended to incentivize people doing difficulties that were too easy for them, Blizzard just marketed it as "helping your friends". And that checklist system of BiS was great, basically nobody who actually reached it complained about it, because it was nice to just be done for a while.

I think you are just throwing empty words out.

Gearing is super NON-rng now, how the heck can it be RNG when bloody 8 item slots are already pretty much locked from the get go by tier, legendaries, artifact and bloody trinket.

People are screeching at item here they got which did not proc TF, but shit previously you wouldn't even have that item.

I remember TBC, I was raiding SSC with blue weapon because bloody decent weapon did not drop for me for bloody months and in the end I had one casual ass epic weapon drop from Kara woo. That's RNG.

What we have now is not even close to real RNG.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I couldn't care less what "casuals" and LFR-heroes get.

What doesn't feel good to me about Titanforging, is seeing players I do the same content as, be lucky with titanforging whilst I'm unlucky. Whilst they're an asset to the team, it doesn't feel nice to know that I should probably farm even more for chances of to try and close the gap and not be a drag to the team. 15+ ilvl differences between people doing the same content, based entirely on luck, is horrible.

If they capped Titanforging, I'd be more than pleased.

[Tradu]

No, nothing has changed in that regard. You still progress through content difficulty exactly as before. Just because titanforging exists doesn't mean you "randomly skip" anything. Maybe you need to give me an example of what you mean because while you might think that what you're saying is obvious, it isn't.

What has changed is that you can progress further (gearwise) in whatever difficulty content you're participating in. This is a good thing because it helps groups that need more gear to progress to keep progressing if they're prepared to keep at it, instead of, as what used to happen, hitting a brick wall.

My paladin alt got a 940 neck from Demonic Inquisition heroic during ToS. That slot just skipped way past the current difficulty and the highest difficulty. My mage got a 950 ring from Maiden heroic, same thing.

It doesn't help groups that get stuck, they'll still get stuck regardless because they're not good enough. They'll already be going into the fight with gear that is better than what it needs, thanks to WF/TF, further WF/TF doesn't solve anything. In the past, you didn't get to a fight with gear that was better than what it dropped by default, you still had room to grow with regular drops from the previous bosses.

[dakalro]

How is there not gear progression? Of course there is. You do content, your gear improves. That IS gear progression.

The difference is that gear progression has become open ended (ie there is no realistically achievable ceiling), and it has been expanded to include all recent content, albeit doing less difficult content will result in much slower progression. In practice it means that whatever you do in the game, you're going to be progressing your gear

The problem comes in when you have a player who lacks the ability to self regulate, when a player decides "I can't stop feeling compelled to keep doing content as long as there is a chance (no matter how small) of an upgrade". TF is great because it gives players the freedom to choose for themselves what goals to chase and when to stop. It fails when players can't exercise that freedom. It's great when players do content for the sake of doing content and still get to experience the ocassional upgrade. It fails when players do content they have no other interest in to get gear they don't actually need, purely out of a compulsion to try and pursue every possible upgrade, no matter how minor or unnecessary.

If TF is a bad system it's only because of players.

IMO TF needs to stay. Removing it might help to protect stupid players from themselves, but it would come at the cost of punishing sensible players. And what would that even accomplish? Stupid players are just going to find some other way to shoot themselves in the proverbial foot. Personally I say that sets a bad precedent. Reward people who play the game as it is meant to be played. If playing the game in a silly way is punishing, then those people need to figure out how to play it in a more sensible fashion, don't just go change the game to protect them from themselves.

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Why and to what end? ie what outcome do you wish to achieve by doing this?

1. Mythic raiders will not have to worry about TF.
2. Can improve some gear even if unlucky with TF procs - can direct the TF somewhat (TF bracers vs TF chest for example); maybe limit this to the first titanforge (+15).
3. Prevents the need to farm old content for TF (mostly farming previous tier for high TF set pieces or trinkets) since old tier gear will be capped at its old value.
4. This clashes with 1. so no idea.

[Tradu]

I think you are just throwing empty words out.

Gearing is super NON-rng now, how the heck can it be RNG when bloody 8 item slots are already pretty much locked from the get go by tier, legendaries, artifact and bloody trinket.

People are screeching at item here they got which did not proc TF, but shit previously you wouldn't even have that item.

I remember TBC, I was raiding SSC with blue weapon because bloody decent weapon did not drop for me for bloody months and in the end I had one casual ass epic weapon drop from Kara woo. That's RNG.

What we have now is not even close to real RNG.

Yes, you would. Legion does have locked in slots(2 legendaries, 4-6 tier pieces, that's it. Trinkets weren't "locked in" until the Pantheon trinkets, and artifacts are 3 slots which are not locked in), but those aren't exempt from WF/TF. TBC was many years ago and isn't comparable. Compare it to the more recent expansions, where you still had the drop RNG(which is no different at all in Legion, no clue where people got that idea) but without the extreme extra layer of WF/TF.

[alexchaos]

I think you are just throwing empty words out.

Gearing is super NON-rng now, how the heck can it be RNG when bloody 8 item slots are already pretty much locked from the get go by tier, legendaries, artifact and bloody trinket.

People are screeching at item here they got which did not proc TF, but shit previously you wouldn't even have that item.

I remember TBC, I was raiding SSC with blue weapon because bloody decent weapon did not drop for me for bloody months and in the end I had one casual ass epic weapon drop from Kara woo. That's RNG.

What we have now is not even close to real RNG.

The drop rates have evolved much since TBC. I don't remember having to chase months for a drop in WotLK. Nether did in Cata or MoP. I skipped WoD but Legoin has been the worst drop wise so far.

I play a demo lock and has had the best rng possible. Pretty much all the good gear I got had versatility as highest stat for the whole xpac so far. But demo needs haste because without it it's clunky and unplayable. I keep an haste set in my bags at all time even tho it's 13 ilvl less then my best ilvl set.

Don't you dare tell me there's no RNG.

[Revamp Man]

No, nothing has changed in that regard. You still progress through content difficulty exactly as before. Just because titanforging exists doesn't mean you "randomly skip" anything. Maybe you need to give me an example of what you mean because while you might think that what you're saying is obvious, it isn't.

What has changed is that you can progress further (gearwise) in whatever difficulty content you're participating in. This is a good thing because it helps groups that need more gear to progress to keep progressing if they're prepared to keep at it, instead of, as what used to happen, hitting a brick wall.

my guild recently started heroic antorus
we entered normal with an average ilvl of 935 and we entered heroic with an average ilvl of 943
multiple pieces have been DEd or taken for mog or OS because of ilvl inlfation

[Deleted]

I would want it nerfed, if it were completely removed, people would stop raiding as much as they do now.

Because at some point you will not get better gear, on the other hand, it is annoying that older content gear outscales the newer, just because it can titanforge so absurdly high, forcing you to use it ( Trinkets ), as they are a main factor in most classes.

[Raelbo]

Gearing never had this degree of RNG, which is the problem. The item had to drop, end of story. Now it has to drop and WF/TF to a decent level in addition.

Nope. That's a constraint you're trying to force on the system because you seemingly lack the ability to understand how the system is meant to work.

Gear is a means to an end (beating content). Any upgrade gets you closer to that end. There is absolutely no rational reason why anyone needs every item in every gear slot to achieve their objectives.

And TF was definitely intended to incentivize people doing difficulties that were too easy for them, Blizzard just marketed it as "helping your friends".

You're using the word "incentivize" to try and strawman the argument. There is nothing wrong with giving incentives to do anything, provided the strength of the incentive is appropriate.

What is important is that TF was definitely not intended to compel people to doing difficulties that were too easy for them. In other words, TF is an added incentive for people who have other reasons to be doing that lower content. If you're forcing to do that content just for the chance at TF though, in spite of the fact that you actively dislike said content, that's a problem with you and your choices. You can't blame the system for that.

And that checklist system of BiS was great, basically nobody who actually reached it complained about it, because it was nice to just be done for a while.

Why should anyone require a checklist to be done? Sure, it's one way to define the end point, but really, there are far better ways. For example, when you've

• had enough of the instance
• defeated the bosses you wanted to defeat
• feel you're adequately prepared (gear-wise) for the next tier

The idea of running the raid until you've geared every slot is actually pretty toxic. It encourages OCD type playing where people will keep running a tier even after they're actually sick of it, often to help other people in their guild to get those last few slots. It breeds resentment, creates burnout etc, and all for what?

Nah, sorry, but letting people decide for themselves when they've had enough is a much better system.

[Tradu]

Nope. That's a constraint you're trying to force on the system because you seemingly lack the ability to understand how the system is meant to work.

Gear is a means to an end (beating content). Any upgrade gets you closer to that end. There is absolutely no rational reason why anyone needs every item in every gear slot to achieve their objectives.



You're using the word "incentivize" to try and strawman the argument. There is nothing wrong with giving incentives to do anything, provided the strength of the incentive is appropriate.

What is important is that TF was definitely not intended to compel people to doing difficulties that were too easy for them. In other words, TF is an added incentive for people who have other reasons to be doing that lower content. If you're forcing to do that content just for the chance at TF though, in spite of the fact that you actively dislike said content, that's a problem with you and your choices. You can't blame the system for that.



Why should anyone require a checklist to be done? Sure, it's one way to define the end point, but really, there are far better ways. For example, when you've

• had enough of the instance
• defeated the bosses you wanted to defeat
• feel you're adequately prepared (gear-wise) for the next tier

The idea of running the raid until you've geared every slot is actually pretty toxic. It encourages OCD type playing where people will keep running a tier even after they're actually sick of it, often to help other people in their guild to get those last few slots. It breeds resentment, creates burnout etc, and all for what?

Nah, sorry, but letting people decide for themselves when they've had enough is a much better system.

People could decide they were "done" at any point before BiS if they wanted(just like they can now, the only people who don't get to stop now are the ones who want the best possible gear, which is absolutely a valid goal). It was just an actual end point. And TF is not a "bonus", it's a core part of Legion gearing. And yes, there is something wrong with incentivizing farming easy difficulties that you've outgrown.
Gear being a means to an end doesn't mean there can't be a BiS end point to it either.

[Daedius]

I hate Legion's uncapped iteration of it. MoP had the perfect system.

[glowpipe]

Not really. It gets rid of best in slot lists and everyone running around with the same gear. it also makes outdated content worth doing to a degree.

I see the same argument over and over "tf is ruining the game" "you can get mythic gear doing lfr" and so on. so fucking wrong. In a raid tier you MIGHT see _1_ piece TF up to mythic levels. If you are really lucky, 2. 15-16 pieces. Oh fuck no. Not gonna happen in the history of ever.

Also. Why does it matter for you what other get ? care about your own gear. If you are a mythic raider you get mythic gear on a weekly basis. where lfr raiders _Might_ get one item in the entire tier, even expansion. And even if he did get all pieces max titanforged, which would never happen, Why does it matter ? its not like he would come and take your spot. Gear is one thing. Its much more important to be able to play the game and your class on mythic levels.

[Gaidax]

I think you people are just way too stuck up on ephemeral titanforge chances, really.

To hear you it is as if everyone around you are getting showered by titanforging, while you getting nothing.

Reality is when I look at guild spreadsheet, ilvls are reasonably tight and we really don't have any unicorns who are rocking full TF gear or even TF by any significant margin.

[tikcol]

I wish mythic was removed, it's such a hassle and not that hard. All raiding embodies is present in LFR

[Gaidax]

Not really. It gets rid of best in slot lists and everyone running around with the same gear. it also makes outdated content worth doing to a degree.

I see the same argument over and over "tf is ruining the game" "you can get mythic gear doing lfr" and so on. so fucking wrong. In a raid tier you MIGHT see _1_ piece TF up to mythic levels. If you are really lucky, 2. 15-16 pieces. Oh fuck no. Not gonna happen in the history of ever.

Also. Why does it matter for you what other get ? care about your own gear. If you are a mythic raider you get mythic gear on a weekly basis. where lfr raiders _Might_ get one item in the entire tier, even expansion. And even if he did get all pieces max titanforged, which would never happen, Why does it matter ? its not like he would come and take your spot. Gear is one thing. Its much more important to be able to play the game and your class on mythic levels.

This pretty much. I have no idea where all these TF horror stories come from. I can imagine there are some people who can't psychologically stand others getting better gear here and there.

[Allenseiei]

Rather than removed, because I know the incentive it brings, I want it capped. I think i read this before but I will post it again:

Warforged = 5 ilvl increase
Titanforge = 10 ilvl increase

[Tradu]

This pretty much. I have no idea where all these TF horror stories come from. I can imagine there are some people who can't psychologically stand others getting better gear here and there.

Is it very hard to understand that I don't want titanforged gear? I want an item to drop, end of story. That is the item, no random extra crap beyond the item itself dropping. Plenty of people feel the same way. People being overrewarded for easy content is a secondary concern.