Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Deleted]

You're so amazing bro.

I've pugged the raid 4-5 times on heroic. The main reason I don't have curve is that most PUGs just give up on Coven or Aggramar. It's not like any of the people individually can't kill the boss, it's that the group as a unit doesn't have the co-ordination for a boss like Aggramar because they've never played together before, and they usually have little patience to keep trying.

There's really nothing special about the fact that you've got AOTC and others haven't. You just had the good fortune to land in better/more patient PUGs than we did.

But one thing you are undoubtedly good at is being a patronising dickhead.

PuGs oneshot coven since 3-4 weeks. At least the pugs I join. Week 1 took 3 days to kill it. But now the DPS is so high, that you just lust at pull and only get 3 phases max. Also the storm nerf was huge to pugs. You also can compensate some deaths. A group that kills varimathras now usually oneshots coven. Bringing out necrotic seems way harder than dodging some ghosts.

edit: got your first post. Or maybe we kill it, because we play it clean? CCing adds and using a personal if we have to move into the storm during army? yes, you dont have to die to the army only because its overlapping with the storm. You survive some hits. Do you CC/slow the army? You blame others, but what do you bring to the raid?

[Battlebeard]

Vanilla WoW - Strat timed
TBC - Shattered Halls
TBC - Black temple rush tournament

It is as old as the game itself. People who cleared things easily always tried to do it faster and blizzard challenged people with timers since classic (there were even timed escort quests).

Gz on you two +15 keys. Thought a pro would three chest them. And your Argus logs are up, up the story of #1 Argus DPS isn´t shown, so maybe WoL is bugged.

People with skill, who raided cutting edge just link the old raid achievements to a medicore guild and get instant invite for raid testing. Which means instant Curve.

The argus kill I was proud of was not logged, I can't find the date there, sadly

It's not the first +15s I do... it's just the first 15 I do this season, and ofc we would get 3 chests, but we were carrying a guy with blue gear, so we only had two dpsers and the other DPS was also quite behind me, and the healer, 930ish, not sure he was fully ready for +15 either. So yeah, not a "proper" run, but atleast 2 chest.

[Fjordkeeper]

You're so amazing bro.

I've pugged the raid 4-5 times on heroic. The main reason I don't have curve is that most PUGs just give up on Coven or Aggramar. It's not like any of the people individually can't kill the boss, it's that the group as a unit doesn't have the co-ordination for a boss like Aggramar because they've never played together before, and they usually have little patience to keep trying.

There's really nothing special about the fact that you've got AOTC and others haven't. You just had the good fortune to land in better/more patient PUGs than we did.

But one thing you are undoubtedly good at is being a patronising dickhead.

mhhh gotta love the salty tears of underperforming forum enthusiasts.

Dude if you play since Antorus release and still don't have AOTC I seriously don't know if you are even trying.

[ydraw]

PuGs oneshot coven since 3-4 weeks. At least the pugs I join..

Some PUGs do and that's kind of the issue. If you get into a PUG that does wipe on Vari or Coven, everyone just bails. Nobody sticks around for a 2nd attempt. People get less tolerant of wipes the longer the tier goes on.

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Dude if you play since Antorus release and still don't have AOTC I seriously don't know if you are even trying.

You're right that I could definitely try harder. I could sit at my PC 8 hours a day and spam apply to PUGs until I eventually got into 1 that could clear the whole thing. But I don't have 8 hours a day to spend doing that, and even if I did have 8 free hours a day, I sure as shit wouldn't spend it applying to PUGs so I could beg people with poor social skills like yourself to invite me to a raid.

[Battlebeard]

The removal of said tools would only benefit under-performing slackers and take away the possibility for a player to measure his performance. How on earth should I know if I'm doing well, if I don't have a dps meter to check it?

pre-Mythic and even mythic content is not inaccessible at all if you are not under performing.


Nice strawman buddy

Of course there are decent players without achievements and gear, but those are very rare.
The vast majority of players who play since antorus release and still have not gotten the freaking curve by now are horribly under performing.

Myself and the majority of pug leaders don't want to invite 30 random uncurved 930 players just to find the one that isn't complete garbage.

Take your strawman right back: You seem to not be aware of how much time and energy a RL needs to bring in order to put up with all these horrible players.

As for your ilvl and curve: I guarantee you that in my pugs, only people with multiple kills on their armory will be invited, because 80% of the curved 950 players are bad as well.


If that's true, then you should have 950+ and multiple kills by now, because I don't read guides at all, I'm watching youtube videos on my second monitor during boss fights and I'm failing 2-3 during each raid AND I STILL HAVE MULTIPLE HEROIC CLEARS with 970+ ilvl.


You want other people to put up with horrible players and waste their time carrying slackers.

How about you freaking lead by example instead of whining on these forums?
Log in -> create an antorus normal/heroic group with the title "everyone welcome". It's literally that easy. But wait you don't want to put up with that **** don't you?


STRAWMANSTRAWMANSTRAWMAN
Out of my expirience as a veteran pug leader, I can assure you that you are horribly overestimating the number of good lowbies in PUG raids. You might find one good player in 30 and that's by no means "many" & "sometimes"

I am not talking about today, my Rogue has 960 EQ, 966 bagilvl (which is shown), and 5+ kills in heroic Argus, I have no problem finding groups at all now. But I am talking about the beginning of the raid tiers. People ask for curve the FIRST WEEK and defenitly the second week, for NORMAL MODE. They asked for 940 the FIRST week... that is insane! They don't realize how unlikely there is for non-mythic raiders to get 940 and curve the first week. If you had 9/9 mythic tomb and already full mythic tomb gear, this is quite achieveable, but I had like 925ilvl after Heroic Tomb, which was pretty good with 0 mythic tomb kills. You should be able to go from heroic tomb to heroic antorus, just like I went from heroic nighthold to heroic tomb (that was also a struggle but not like this).

I think these requirements are completely insane.

[Deleted]

I love high requirement groups. Have done heroic pug 5 weeks in a row at server reset on wednesdays and had I think 1 or 2 aggrammar wipes cause of too much damage and 1 0% varimathras wipe in total. Each run has taken less than 1 hour 45min with a break included in the middle. The pug life with 970+ ilvl requirement, mandatory discord and checking everyones logs is so good. Most pug runs is way smoother than my guild runs cause in pugs, if you fail you get the boot! And the bosses go down so fast when you have 15 dpsers parsing orange on every fight. So relaxing. Pugging in Legion is the best!

Gives me a lot of time to spend on Mythic raiding and going to the gym instead of wiping hour after hour cause some people are just bad.

[Deleted]

The argus kill I was proud of was not logged, I can't find the date there, sadly

It's not the first +15s I do... it's just the first 15 I do this season, and ofc we would get 3 chests, but we were carrying a guy with blue gear, so we only had two dpsers and the other DPS was also quite behind me, and the healer, 930ish, not sure he was fully ready for +15 either. So yeah, not a "proper" run, but atleast 2 chest.

You know that we see your run? That the heal was 960? That it took you 4 more minutes in upper kara with the same affixes as our upper kara run 3 months ago on the same affixes and 14 less itemlevel on average? When all of our DPS were around 943, like your carry? Thats not a good run you had there. Even if you carry someone.

[Deleted]

You know that we see your run? That the heal was 960? That it took you 4 more minutes in upper kara with the same affixes as our upper kara run 3 months ago on the same affixes and 14 less itemlevel on average? When all of our DPS were around 943, like your carry? Thats not a good run you had there. Even if you carry someone.

He's probably the most looked up dude on this forum by now

[Deleted]

This come under the umbrella of account sharing though. You could do the same thing for raider.io score if you wanted as well. But it's not the same thing as buying a raid carry which is extremely common and not against the TOS.

Selling mage tower challenges for cash is a huge screwup on Blizzard's end though. They've taken something that's massively important to the casual player base (cosmetic appearances) and tied it to a skill based challenge that many of them can not complete without breaking the TOS. What did they expect to happen?

I don't find Mage Tower to be that impossible to beat that you have to resort to other people playing your characters. You can make it much easier with overgearing and waiting for the better legendaries to drop, and some can even be cheesed with a ton of consumables. I have completed all 36 challenges for all classes, and even have some more alts done now (a 2nd prot paladin, and 5 more mage challenges over all specs). o_O But I also love solo challenges, because it's 100% about my skill and patience / dedication and not about group logistics and management. I have been a raid leader for some groups in TBC and WotLK, and I am done with that shit.

- - - Updated - - -

I am not talking about today, my Rogue has 960 EQ, 966 bagilvl (which is shown), and 5+ kills in heroic Argus, I have no problem finding groups at all now. But I am talking about the beginning of the raid tiers. People ask for curve the FIRST WEEK and defenitly the second week, for NORMAL MODE. They asked for 940 the FIRST week... that is insane! They don't realize how unlikely there is for non-mythic raiders to get 940 and curve the first week. If you had 9/9 mythic tomb and already full mythic tomb gear, this is quite achieveable, but I had like 925ilvl after Heroic Tomb, which was pretty good with 0 mythic tomb kills. You should be able to go from heroic tomb to heroic antorus, just like I went from heroic nighthold to heroic tomb (that was also a struggle but not like this).

I think these requirements are completely insane.

I'm with you with the first weeks a raid is out. But by the time the last LFR wing has opened and been active for some weeks, things have already changed a bit.

[Fjordkeeper]

You're right that I could definitely try harder. I could sit at my PC 8 hours a day and spam apply to PUGs until I eventually got into 1 that could clear the whole thing. But I don't have 8 hours a day to spend doing that, and even if I did have 8 free hours a day, I sure as shit wouldn't spend it applying to PUGs so I could beg people with poor social skills like yourself to invite me to a raid.

Yeah.. If you need 8 hours to find a good pug group you should probably stick to LFR.
Also judging by your reaction to my post, I wouldn't necessarily judge people on their social skills ;-)

You do you buddy!
I wish you best of luck for the future!

[Osmeric]

I see you don't understand past tense either. I haven't raided seriously in many years. WOTLK was the last time I did. Yes, you got the account correct. And no, people don't select the "best players they can find." They select people based on arbitrary numbers (ilvl), achievements that can be bought or that people can be carried through, and on blind assumptions (much like you are doing about my experience). That is why this thread exists.

Those things correlate with the quality of the player, though. And even if there was no correlation, a bad player with good gear > a bad player with bad gear, and a bad player with experience in the content > a bad player without experience in the content.

Why, if they didn't know anything else, should they NOT take the player with the better gear and/or experience?

[Deleted]

[SNIP] Out of my expirience as a veteran pug leader, I can assure you that you are horribly overestimating the number of good lowbies in PUG raids. You might find one good player in 30 and that's by no means "many" & "sometimes"

The biggest problem today is item level inflation by WF/TF. Before that, you could tell from the item level directly in which content difficulty the player is participating. Now, you can have people without any raid skills whatsoever sporting item levels of 950 just because they have luck. Yes, I sometimes fail things because I have a bad day or am distracted for some reason. But usually, I execute mechanics properly, and if I am very familiar with a class / spec, then I also perform decent in my selected role. My characters have an item level range of 920-950 now.

[Ealyssa]

There used be a similar thing called openRAID but AFAIK it hasn't existed since WoD.

http://perkypugs.com/ US equivalent. Took me 23s on google...

I use stupid when stupid fit. But whatever champ, keep crying on forums instead of finding solutions !!! You'll achieve great things !!!

PuG raiding IS STUPIDLY EASY. That's just an actual fact. I'm here to teach you that, not start a debate. I do 5 NM clear weekly with characters who are still under 930 and were 910+ 3-5 weeks ago. I clear HC at least 3 times a week. All in pugs with people I don't know. It isn't hard, stop the pathetic whinning and start REAL search. Not just spaming the retarded in game LFG shittool.

They are so many discords, forums, ressources out there to find like minded people to have fun in video games. It's just crazy how lazy people are.

[Osmeric]

It's certainly not "stupid easy". I could spend hours apping to heroic raids at 956 gear level and not get invited. At 945 you basically have no chance.

At 945 you should be doing normal runs. You will almost certainly have slots that can benefit from the loot that likely drops there, either unforged or at low -forging levels. Remember, you will have two 1000 legendaries and your weapon is likely going to be above 930 also.

Anyway, the devs in this expansion did away with progressive nerfs of content, instead counting on -forging to provide progressive buffs to players. This means that if you come back late, you are in some trouble. The answer is: don't come back late. In the next expansion, assuming this continues to hold, don't step away from the game and assume that's not going to hurt you.

[Mlz]

The argus kill I was proud of was not logged, I can't find the date there, sadly

It's not the first +15s I do... it's just the first 15 I do this season, and ofc we would get 3 chests, but we were carrying a guy with blue gear, so we only had two dpsers and the other DPS was also quite behind me, and the healer, 930ish, not sure he was fully ready for +15 either. So yeah, not a "proper" run, but atleast 2 chest.

Man up and stop finding faults in other players. Chances are that if you only end up with shit groups and you're the common denominator, that you yourself are lacking. That healer had a 3chest Upper from before and as someone called you out then you got the gearing part completely wrong aswell. Although that run didn't get logged we can only assume based on previous data that you probably died to Flame Wreath and the puddles on the first boss in addition to providing the group with mediocre dps.

[Fjordkeeper]

The biggest problem today is item level inflation by WF/TF. Before that, you could tell from the item level directly in which content difficulty the player is participating. Now, you can have people without any raid skills whatsoever sporting item levels of 950 just because they have luck. Yes, I sometimes fail things because I have a bad day or am distracted for some reason. But usually, I execute mechanics properly, and if I am very familiar with a class / spec, then I also perform decent in my selected role. My characters have an item level range of 920-950 now.

Agreed, but that's why you don't use ilvl as an indicator to invite people but just as a filter to sort out who can apply to your group.
This way I can decide that only 960+ people can apply to my Heroic pug and then I check the ones applying on the armory. If I then see that they have multiple kills, I can pretty much assume that they are decent players who know what they are doing.

[nocturnus]

Google "LFR tourist mode" or "Ghostcrawler LFR tourist mode", and you can see a lot of evidence that Greg Street, former lead game designer, has with his own words called it tourist mode.

Yes and unless you're utterly dimwitted, you know tourists like to SEE THINGS, ENJOY THE SCENERY and what have you. Which is exactly what I said LFR is for and not for "bad" people as you so ignorantly claim.

Undermine yourself more, why don't you. I has become quite clear that you have nothing intelligent to add, so what about you just ignore this thread and do everyone, including yourself, a huge favour

Sounds like a good start, especially banning damage meters and removing ilvl. Also, gear tracking addons like gearscore should be banable. Overall, we need less ways to check and judge eachother.

Sounds like something horrible players would love. You need to hide the fact that you suck mate? Play another game.

No it's not tbh these things came out during Wotlk expansion.

No, as a few already mentioned this mind set was already active during tbc.

[dakalro]

Maybe because of TF bullshit? Gear requirements would've been more appropriate if there was no such gear inflation due to this ridiculously grotesque system. Gear is no longer reflection of how much the person has progressed through content but how lucky and how consistent they were or how much $ they spent on BoE gear and boosts.

As long as there is this retarded fucking TF system requirements for raid invs are going to be at or above gear drops in raids, just get used to that or let blizzfucks know you don't want TFs...simple as that. You could also make your own pugs but I am pretty sure 99% of those who create such topics can't even wipe their own ass let alone create successful pug raid.

TF is imo good from this point of view because it allows more people to luck into higher ilvl req groups. Without TF you'd have an unobtainable ilvl (normal raider with 0 way to get heroic gear) and just have to go through multiple "progression" clears before ending up in "farm" clears.

Without TF:
Heroic drops 945. Mythic raiders' alts will be quickly closing in to 940-945 (split runs, early Mythic boss clears) and then pug heroic and would ask for a min of 940-945. As a casual-ish player that clears normal, pugs some heroic, you'll never get that ilvl. Still unable to join those runs. TF only sets the line higher as a number but not relative to other people.

With TF:
Where to draw the line is fuzzier, there's more chances for people to get over the line.

[Deleted]

Agreed, but that's why you don't use ilvl as an indicator to invite people but just as a filter to sort out who can apply to your group.
This way I can decide that only 960+ people can apply to my Heroic pug and then I check the ones applying on the armory. If I then see that they have multiple kills, I can pretty much assume that they are decent players who know what they are doing.

For Antorus, I just went the lazy way and bought me a heroic carry, so I can get into normal pugs now and then. I usually land in the top part of the DPS/damage done on my mage on normal Argus, so I guess I do OK. Of course, not having set bonus items diminishes my performance, but at least I know which legendaries to use and have my gear gemmed and enchanted properly. Which for me is a much better indication if a person cares about the character then just the item level per se.

- - - Updated - - -

TF is imo good from this point of view because it allows more people to luck into higher ilvl req groups. Without TF you'd have an unobtainable ilvl (normal raider with 0 way to get heroic gear) and just have to go through multiple "progression" clears before ending up in "farm" clears.

Without TF:
Heroic drops 945. Mythic raiders' alts will be quickly closing in to 940-945 (split runs, early Mythic boss clears) and then pug heroic and would ask for a min of 940-945. As a casual-ish player that clears normal, pugs some heroic, you'll never get that ilvl. Still unable to join those runs. TF only sets the line higher as a number but not relative to other people.

With TF:
Where to draw the line is fuzzier, there's more chances for people to get over the line.

But without TF the jump which you have to made from one tier to another tier is also smaller, and easier achieved with catch-up gear.

[rootbeerboy]

Sounds like a good start, especially banning damage meters and removing ilvl. Also, gear tracking addons like gearscore should be banable. Overall, we need less ways to check and judge eachother.

Terrible idea lol