Looks like they are trying to bring inquisition back.

[Reith]

You know, we warned them ahead of time about what was going to happen with DS at the start of wrath too, and that had far greater effects than the current selfless healer. Sure, they've been better recently, but it's hard to just assume they'll get it right after all the other instances of them getting it wrong. And if they put selfless healer back because we wanted it, why did they put inquisition back? No one has been happy with it at any point in its existence.

Not only are you wrong and some people actually like Inquisition, and many more are fine with it, but you know that this Inquisition is not the same as the old one, right? It gives haste, not crit. You feel the effect as soon as you use it. It's also not a required ability, and this is lightened by the fact that the two alternatives are good choices as well, this is not so in Legion as there has been only one clear choice, with Crusade being far and away the best talent in most situations.

[Anardel]

The problem with Inquisition is that it penalizes leveling and soloing (yes, wasting 3 HoPo to kill a bear is not fun) and the fact that it's not really a buff to your damage: it means that you're nerfed and need the ""buff"" to be on par with others.

When I was running in MoP I didn't feel Inq was a +% buff, but I felt that I was -% nerfed. And that perception is frustrating and even infuriating. I was glad Inq was lost and now we have to eat it again.
Who designes retribution? Why they can't come with new ideas instead of recycling past failures? It's that hard to think new things for ret?

[Reith]

The problem with Inquisition is that it penalizes leveling and soloing (yes, wasting 3 HoPo to kill a bear is not fun) and the fact that it's not really a buff to your damage: it means that you're nerfed and need the ""buff"" to be on par with others.

When I was running in MoP I didn't feel Inq was a +% buff, but I felt that I was -% nerfed. And that perception is frustrating and even infuriating. I was glad Inq was lost and now we have to eat it again.
Who designes retribution? Why they can't come with new ideas instead of recycling past failures? It's that hard to think new things to ret?

You act as if you're forced to use 3HP on Inquisition, lol. Stop being ridiculous. You can use 1HP, or even none. Don't need Inquisition to kill a bear, even if you talent into it.

[Deleted]

You act as if you're forced to use 3HP on Inquisition, lol. Stop being ridiculous. You can use 1HP, or even none. Don't need Inquisition to kill a bear, even if you talent into it.

idd why are people so stuck on always using 3 hp inquisitin even when killing stuff that will die in less than 20 seconds? the cost says 1-3 holy pwoer not 3

[Anardel]

You act as if you're forced to use 3HP on Inquisition, lol. Stop being ridiculous. You can use 1HP, or even none. Don't need Inquisition to kill a bear, even if you talent into it.

And what about the feeling? Do u really feel you're being buffed with Inq or do you feel you're permanently debuffed and need Inq to be on par? You read my entire comment but it seems you didn't go through first line.

[Reith]

And what about the feeling? Do u really feel you're being buffed with Inq or do you feel you're permanently debuffed and need Inq to be on par? You read my entire comment but it seems you didn't go through first line.

More haste feels a lot better than more crit, so it's not even the same as the old Inquisition.

[Pendraeg]

Thing is, it's looking mandatory with how gutted Crusade is and with the reality of having shitty haste on noob gear at the start of the expansion. Add to that how slow the rotation is on top of it and it's looking like the only useful talent there.

Of course, that's not taking into account the most important thing: it's a good talent. It's a powerful talent. That means Blizzard is going to nerf it. 10% damage and haste? It's going to be reduced in some way or another, my money's on it being just 10% Holy damage rather than all damage and the haste being removed altogether "to bring it in line with gutted Crusade".

I think you're actually backwards. Crusade is going to have to get a bump. You're forgetting that Avenging Wrath is baseline (at +35% damage), and Crusade is a bonus on top of it. Even if you line it up perfectly to get the maximum up time on the maximum power, it's still not a great talent. (By perfect, I mean talenting into JV and WoA, popping Crusade with 5 HP then JV, WoA, JV in order). Avenging wrath is 5% more bonus damage than maximized Crusade (at the 10 stacks BfA is currently slated for), so, if we assume (erroneously generous) that 1% haste = 1% damage, you're getting (over untalented):
+25% (3% damage + 3% haste x 10 stacks - 35% damage baseline) damage for 15.5 sec/2 min (which is 12.9% of time)
+ 1% (3% damage + 3% haste x 6 stacks after the first JV) for 3 sec/2 min (2.5% of time)
-29% (3% damage + 3% haste x 1 stack - 35% damage baseline) damage for 1.5 sec/2 min. (1.25% of time).
Provides a total damage buff of around 2.9% over baseline. (Note: I realize that JV might not be the best talent for overall DPS, but it's the best talent for maximizing Crusade).
Compared to Inquisition which gives (if we use the same equivalencies) 16% (+8% damage, +8% haste) minus the output of 8 holy power (15 seconds per holy power over 2 min to give the same calculated time as Crusade's full cycle).
Given that TV will be about ~30% of damage, and you should get ~100 HP in 2 min, that's 8% of 30%, so it's a 2.4% loss for a 16% gain.
Net +13.6% of total damage, or 10.7% damage buff over Crusade.
And we all know that Divine Purpose is very lackluster (20% gain of 30% damage, or +6%), but even it will supplant Crusade in the current iteration.

Edit:
Clarifying the math, though it doesn't matter at the end of the day.
+60% (3% damage + 3% haste x 10 stacks vs 35% damage baseline) damage for 15.5 sec/2 min (which is 12.9% of time)
+ 36% (3% damage + 3% haste x 6 vs 35% damage baseline stacks after the first JV) for 3 sec/2 min (2.5% of time)
+ 6% (3% damage + 3% haste x 1 stack vs 35% damage baseline) damage for 1.5 sec/2 min. (1.25% of time).
Total, 108.7%
Provides a total damage buff of around 2.9% over baseline (135% for 16.7% of the time, or 105.8%). (Note: I realize that JV might not be the best talent for overall DPS, but it's the best talent for maximizing Crusade).

[Reith]

snip

I would not be sad to see Crusade changed from the ramping up with Holy Power to something else. Maybe it could be a separate cooldown from AW, even.

[Vintersol]

Just throw Crusade back into the abyss. This talent kills every balance possibilities. Either it's to strong (wet noodle effect when on cd) or it's so poor that it shouldn't exist.

[Fredzilla]

Not only are you wrong and some people actually like Inquisition, and many more are fine with it, but you know that this Inquisition is not the same as the old one, right? It gives haste, not crit. You feel the effect as soon as you use it. It's also not a required ability, and this is lightened by the fact that the two alternatives are good choices as well, this is not so in Legion as there has been only one clear choice, with Crusade being far and away the best talent in most situations.

Yes, I was being purposefully hyperbolic to illustrate the point. During the start of Cata when we first got it, the 10sec/HP duration it had was too short, and by DS when they changed it to 20sec/HP, it was mindless to the point that it might as well have been passive. And I remember clearly that the general consensus among raiders throughout it's initial lifespan was that inquisition was never anything we liked. Maintenance buffs like it aren't fun or engaging, and blizz themselves have already stated in the past that they don't like them either, but here we are. At least with the current judge debuff, it requires some planning and thought throughout a given fight to utilize it properly. Inquisition never did. I'd much rather see the spell stay dead.

[Reith]

Yes, I was being purposefully hyperbolic to illustrate the point. During the start of Cata when we first got it, the 10sec/HP duration it had was too short, and by DS when they changed it to 20sec/HP, it was mindless to the point that it might as well have been passive. And I remember clearly that the general consensus among raiders throughout it's initial lifespan was that inquisition was never anything we liked. Maintenance buffs like it aren't fun or engaging, and blizz themselves have already stated in the past that they don't like them either, but here we are. At least with the current judge debuff, it requires some planning and thought throughout a given fight to utilize it properly. Inquisition never did. I'd much rather see the spell stay dead.

You hate an optional talent with 2 decent alternatives, but you like the current mastery that is not optional to use. Fricken wow. Nobody that sees this will take you seriously now.

[Carnedge]

Inq was a bad idea back in the day, even worse now with mythic+ being a thing. By the time you have the holy power to use it trash is dead.

If trash is getting killed that fast then who cares what talents you use. You have obviously out geared the Key.

The talent would be great on fort keys

[Deleted]

+60% (3% damage + 3% haste x 10 stacks vs 35% damage baseline) damage for 15.5 sec/2 min (which is 12.9% of time)
+ 36% (3% damage + 3% haste x 6 vs 35% damage baseline stacks after the first JV) for 3 sec/2 min (2.5% of time)
+ 6% (3% damage + 3% haste x 1 stack vs 35% damage baseline) damage for 1.5 sec/2 min. (1.25% of time).
Total, 108.7%
Provides a total damage buff of around 2.9% over baseline (135% for 16.7% of the time, or 105.8%). (Note: I realize that JV might not be the best talent for overall DPS, but it's the best talent for maximizing Crusade).

Pretty sure the haste and damage buff should be multiplied with eachother not added for a more accurate result other than that not bad for quick maths

[Carnedge]

Orly.
Did you ever play World of Warcraft to even assume that?


Noone will.
it's a maintenance buff, which costs our prescious HoPo, which we need to use on damage when (and if) we actually manage to connect.
Noone will take Crusade aswell.
What a difficult choice out of 3.


While dragonslaying?
Undoubtedly, especially at the beginning of expansion.
But I was inquiring specifically about PvP.
Did you ever PvP as Ret? At any higher than 1500 rating level?

Sure as sure.
I can do this thing too.

Less mobility = less uptime
less uptime = less hopo
less hopo = what we get becomes even more valuable
what we get becomes even more valuable = who in they right mind would pick a maintenance buff

I’m no rocket surgeon, but I’m pretty sure all of those talents on that row require you to be in melee range for the full benefit. The good thing about Inq is it’s not RNG and you can’t be CC chained through the entire buff like you can Crusade. Unless you pop bubble. You’re still likely to get CC’d or kited after bubble pops so, back to square one.

Stupid argument is stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with Inquisition is that it penalizes leveling and soloing (yes, wasting 3 HoPo to kill a bear is not fun) and the fact that it's not really a buff to your damage: it means that you're nerfed and need the ""buff"" to be on par with others.

When I was running in MoP I didn't feel Inq was a +% buff, but I felt that I was -% nerfed. And that perception is frustrating and even infuriating. I was glad Inq was lost and now we have to eat it again.
Who designes retribution? Why they can't come with new ideas instead of recycling past failures? It's that hard to think new things for ret?

Extra 10% damage and haste isn’t a buff? Put the pipe down. You can not compare numbers yet as they have not been adjusted or tuned. The last sentence of the first paragraph blows my mind. So you want it to be tuned to blow all other classes out of the water? What’s wrong with being on par?

Don’t do drugs kids

[Fredzilla]

You hate an optional talent with 2 decent alternatives, but you like the current mastery that is not optional to use. Fricken wow. Nobody that sees this will take you seriously now.

Except when it comes to raiding, there aren't "optional" throughput talents. There's always a clear winner in any given scenario, and any raider worth their salt will use it regardless of how they view the talent.

And I'm not saying I like the current judgment/mastery, only that it requires more mental acuity to use properly than inquisition ever did or ever will. Don't put words in my mouth.

And if people don't take me seriously, that's on them, not me.

[Puzzony]

Crusade should be scrapped and put something like seraphim instead of it, that replaces avenging wrath entirely, so instead of the 35% flat dmg buff you get X% crit/haste/mastery. Would be a much better alternative imo.

[Reith]

Except when it comes to raiding, there aren't "optional" throughput talents. There's always a clear winner in any given scenario, and any raider worth their salt will use it regardless of how they view the talent.

That's only if it ends up being the best choice for most situations. It's too early to say that it will be or not. They can still change other things or nerf Inquisition itself, and in fact they did slightly already. Why whine about developers actually putting things in for Ret at this early point? I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but if you need an example of constructive criticism, look at my analysis of Selfless Healer as it is right now. Be constructive about it or be quiet.

And I'm not saying I like the current judgment/mastery, only that it requires more mental acuity to use properly than inquisition ever did or ever will. Don't put words in my mouth.

Comparing the two is stupid in the first place, because you don't have to take Inquisition. You can take that DPS loss if it ends up being better, nobody else will care if you actually hate it so much. Having fun with the game is way more important anyway, and I doubt you're a top 100 mythic raider, so it makes very little difference.

[Demsi]

I never enjoyed inquisition when it was introduced in Cata, but making it to a haste buff might make it enjoyable to use, i like that it's a talent tho, being able to choose is pretty good imo.

[Gungnir]

i'm actually happy they brought it back. Rotation is very very basic in legion and we could use some buff that you add to the rotation.

I'd love it if they also added DP as a baseline proc.
Having both Inquisition to rotate and DP to react to would actually make it fairly engaging, even though I'll probably get flamed to hell for this post because people hate DPS variance even if it's less than 2% variance per pull.

Realistically, trinkets in general have had a much higher impact on DPS variance than DP has the last few expansion, but eh.

[Swampmoose]

That's only if it ends up being the best choice for most situations. It's too early to say that it will be or not. They can still change other things or nerf Inquisition itself, and in fact they did slightly already. Why whine about developers actually putting things in for Ret at this early point? I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but if you need an example of constructive criticism, look at my analysis of Selfless Healer as it is right now. Be constructive about it or be quiet.


Comparing the two is stupid in the first place, because you don't have to take Inquisition. You can take that DPS loss if it ends up being better, nobody else will care if you actually hate it so much. Having fun with the game is way more important anyway, and I doubt you're a top 100 mythic raider, so it makes very little difference.

Top 100 or top 10,000, many people just want to perform their best. The thing I enjoy most about raiding is trying to perform better than I did the week before. Having played near both ends of the spectrum, I'd never take a sub par talent even if I was queuing for LFR. Even if I didn't do that, choosing something like Inq over Crusade, or vice versa, doesn't make the game more fun for me. I look at the class as a whole. It would be nice if the best talents varied from fight to fight, but like you said, we'll see how that pans out. Way too early to start talking about that. Now's the time people should be looking at function, not numbers.