Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Swampmoose]

Those things correlate with the quality of the player, though. And even if there was no correlation, a bad player with good gear > a bad player with bad gear, and a bad player with experience in the content > a bad player without experience in the content.

Why, if they didn't know anything else, should they NOT take the player with the better gear and/or experience?

In some cases they do, and some they don't. The only way to tell is digging into logs, but it is rare for people to do that. I can give you countless examples just within the casual guild I'm apart of now. On paper ilvl across the raid is fairly similar, and experience is equal. Some people regularly perform in the top 75% or higher for their ilvl. Many other's perform in the bottom 15%. Some of the highest ilvl people in the group are the lowest performers. As I've restated too many times to count, these people meet all of the criteria for these groups. They have gear, they have experience, but their performance says anything but.

Why, if they didn't know anything else, should they NOT take the player with the better gear and/or experience?

Problem is that the info is available if you dig for it in logs but people don't really take the time to do that, nor do they have the time to sit and do that when putting a group together. Honestly the only solution I could see is improvements to log sites that allow you to see a bit more info at a glance. WCL is getting there. Until then we will be stuck with "Link AOTC or no inv."

[Deleted]

If im in group with my friend, our ilvl is lower if we queue up, but if we queue up solo, our ilvl shows real equipped ilvl. Why? We cant queue up in group because his ilvl is 964 in group, mine is 973.

[kamuimac]

At 945 you should be doing normal runs. You will almost certainly have slots that can benefit from the loot that likely drops there, either unforged or at low -forging levels. Remember, you will have two 1000 legendaries and your weapon is likely going to be above 930 also.

Anyway, the devs in this expansion did away with progressive nerfs of content, instead counting on -forging to provide progressive buffs to players. This means that if you come back late, you are in some trouble. The answer is: don't come back late. In the next expansion, assuming this continues to hold, don't step away from the game and assume that's not going to hurt you.

the thing is this is completly counterintuitive if you think about it. its a design flaw from psychological point of view part of why they are nerfing itlv in BfA - we are talking about gear being over 900 itlv - at 945 people miss what 4-5 930 slots they can benefit from in normal and that would get them to what ? 948 itlv maaaaybe ? seems really pointless to do for those 2 max 3 overall itemlevel points. .

also titanforging - sorry but normal people without serious OCD dont farm titanforging - this system is simply flawed by the fact that nobody sane will aim at 2-3% change of upgrade when in hc they have 20-30 % chance and which can jump their itlv from 945 to 955-960 - that seems attractive for people so they follow .

at 945 its really counterintuitive for people to farm normal - but its really obvious that next logical step should be HC which has 12-14 slots they can upgrade significantly instead 4-5 which doesnt really upgrade them that much.

[Deleted]

people miss (...) normal people without seriouc OCD (...) nobody sane (...) attractive for people (...) counterintuitive for people

You are not speaking for others. Only for yourself. Also being offensive towards people who actually do farm TF - calling them "people with serious OCD" - yeah. You convinced me you are right in anything you claim after using such "arguments". Learn some manners and don't act like an advocate of anyone. You are not.

[Zephire]

What even is your point? Battlebeard is not an elite athlete, he's an average player with a terrible attitude.

I guess my point was that the "attitude problem" wasn't his/her alone. The athlete was just an analogy where someone just do their thing decent because there's no need to push it, at that moment.

I can't imagine myself raiding through only pugging. When raiding with the guild, you know what each person is capable of, what are their strong sides and flaws, and you know when coming to the raid you come to have fun or work together on a common goal, the atmosphere is completely different. In pugs, the anonymity brings the worst out of people, everyone just thinks how to get the most benefit at the least effort possible, so you get people trying to get into groups they don't qualify for, people who slack and leech and don't do any tactics, kick happy raid leaders, you get it all. It's not just fault of one side, the responsibility is spread in the nebulous "community", but there is no "community" in a group of strangers, people don't go there to meet friends and socialize, so self-centered attitudes dominate.

I think pugging is pretty interesting, maybe not so much if you progress though. The worse players, the more you'd have to interact with them, notice what they're doing and try to make them do something different for success. It's very satisfying when you manage to lead them. It's like a minigame in it self and it makes farming a bit more interesting (if you're not just looking for a speed run). You know, we're all nobodys in a pug but going from a no-one to a respected leader is quite a nice ego boost

Majority of people play for a reward. Remove gear from m+ and only a handful will do it "for fun", like the high key pushers, same as you had for challenge modes in the past - most people did it for the reward (transmog / achievement) and left it there. Legion removed welfare pvp gear, and look how participation dropped. You can still play pvp for rating or prestige ranks, but apparently that's not enough to keep people interested, or at least - not enough people.

I don't know if there's any feature of wow that can just stand alone on the "fun" it provides without an attached reward. There are small amount of people that participate in specific activities "for fun", but that's minority. The game wouldn't sustain itself from these people alone.

That's interesting. I think there's plenty of fun things in wow but the demand for rewards has shifted "fun" from the activity to the reward. "It's not fun if it doesn't give a reward" is such a sad statement. "It's fun, and it also gives a reward, woho!" should be the mindset. WoW also requires you to do activities repeatedly which drains the fun out and replace it with reward. "Fun" is an interesting concept.

[kamuimac]

You are not speaking for others. Only for yourself. Also being offensive towards people who actually do farm TF - calling them "people with serious OCD" - yeah. You convinced me you are right in anything you claim after using such "arguments". Learn some manners and don't act like an advocate of anyone. You are not.

so what you are saying is that average joe wow-games spends couple of hours a week farming that elusive 1 % chance of miniscule upgrade ? i call bs .

- - - Updated - - -

That's interesting. I think there's plenty of fun things in wow but the demand for rewards has shifted "fun" from the activity to the reward. "It's not fun if it doesn't give a reward" is such a sad statement. "It's fun, and it also gives a reward, woho!" should be the mindset. WoW also requires you to do activities repeatedly which drains the fun out and replace it with reward. "Fun" is an interesting concept.

and yet when WoW was full of those "repeated activities" it had ton more players then it has now.

random low chance rewards are not appealing to people thats all .

blizzard tried it - the going away from bis lists and guaranteed gear (badges/vp) and failed horribly as they cannot even sustain as many subs as they had in WoD anymore (yes legion mythic + and raids are better then WoD but everything else fails due to too much rng everywhere) .

its simply flawed model and devs are to incompatent to admit their own mistakes.

[Trend]

I do understand that, and I can't really blame you for wanting a fast raid, but it's the "phenomenon" so to speak that bothers me. When did WoW become "raid fast so we get it done". It's been like this always, but not to this degree. I think Legion has made pugging so extremely "toxic" and horrible in this aspect. But I suppose with an expansion based around grinds and chores, raiding also becomes a chore to be done as fast as possible

If you find the inherent nature of MMO PUGing "toxic", I would suggest MMO's are not for you, and I don't think they are. You're so uninterested that you tab out to play other games. The people you want to group with don't know you and they are not your friends because you can't be in a guild because you just want to do your own thing (like alt-tabbing to play other games during raids), but then you get bent out of shape when strangers don't invite you to their groups. Just quit, this isn't for you.

Raiding hasn't changed since 2004. The majority of raid groups have never wanted to spend any more time than necessary and they have never wanted to gamble on people with no track record. The "I would be a great player if I actually played the game" people like you have never ever had an easy time getting decent groups. Just quit, this isn't for you. What you want is a single player game.

[Deleted]

That's what happens when you destroy server communities.

Pugging was fine up until Cataclysm, then out of nowhere Blizzard decided that 10 man raiding should be a real thing and share lockout with 25 man raiding, devastating both guilds and pugging scene on almost all realms. Cataclysm killed it all.

Sure, there was gearscore before that, but it was used only by morons, so it was mostly on hardcore-wannabe realms. Those realms were and still are cancer anyway, so who cares.

[Marrilaife]

The "I would be a great player if I actually played the game" people like you have never ever had an easy time getting decent groups.

The problem is pug community, lfr and many other "anonymous" group activities are filled to the brim with "idgaf" players who don't wanna put any effort because "I've already put effort on my main" or "I've already put effort in vanilla" or whatever other reason, so they expect others to carry them while they watch netflix or tab out to hearthstone. So we get raid leaders who want others to carry them, and these others who want to join a "smooth ride 1 shot grp" without actually carrying it themselves. So we have mediocre players inviting other mediocre players then wipe on easy boss because no one paid attention or followed any tactics, and then rage because each and every of them believes they aren't mediocre, they're the best the world can offer (if they only tried, but they couldn't be arsed), so they deserved better than that. Cue kicks, ragequits and drama.

Obviously if you get a group where everyone plays at sub 50% of their capability because they cba, you need to outgear the place to oblivion to compensate for the "no fucks given" part.

Thing is, when people play with friends, guild or some people they socialize with, they're more ashamed to just not put any effort, but in front of strangers they simply don't care.

[Better]

I am not talking about today, my Rogue has 960 EQ, 966 bagilvl (which is shown), and 5+ kills in heroic Argus, I have no problem finding groups at all now. But I am talking about the beginning of the raid tiers. People ask for curve the FIRST WEEK and defenitly the second week, for NORMAL MODE. They asked for 940 the FIRST week... that is insane! They don't realize how unlikely there is for non-mythic raiders to get 940 and curve the first week. If you had 9/9 mythic tomb and already full mythic tomb gear, this is quite achieveable, but I had like 925ilvl after Heroic Tomb, which was pretty good with 0 mythic tomb kills. You should be able to go from heroic tomb to heroic antorus, just like I went from heroic nighthold to heroic tomb (that was also a struggle but not like this).

I think these requirements are completely insane.

They specifically wanted to get the clear in the first week. They just didn't want to have to deal with just random players who probably didn't look up the fights/do them on PTR, and would probably cause wipes.
The community will always find a system to try to get matched with players of equal, or greater skill than themselves. None of these systems are perfect, but it's well within their rights to use whatever system they want to find group members (within ToS of course). If they only wanted to take people with gnome puns as names they can do that.

[ydraw]

That's what happens when you destroy server communities.

Pugging was fine up until Cataclysm

Lol. PUGging was always cancer.

[Zephire]

and yet when WoW was full of those "repeated activities" it had ton more players then it has now.

random low chance rewards are not appealing to people thats all .

blizzard tried it - the going away from bis lists and guaranteed gear (badges/vp) and failed horribly as they cannot even sustain as many subs as they had in WoD anymore (yes legion mythic + and raids are better then WoD but everything else fails due to too much rng everywhere) .

its simply flawed model and devs are to incompatent to admit their own mistakes.

That's also a long time ago when everything was "fresher" and new. People tire of the same core gameplay over time. That said I think that back in the days good loot was more scarce which made it more rare and therefore more valuable (even if it was just some decent gear piece). I also think a different mindset contributed to what you say. Today's generation(s) have an other mindset.

"random low chance rewards are not appealing to people thats all ." this is just what I said. The fun is ruined because of low chance of a reward which implies that the "fun" is the reward, not the activity it self.

[kamuimac]

Lol. PUGging was always cancer.

he clearly didnt pug back then - how many pugs i remeber breaking after first 1-2 bosses and then nobobdy wanted to join those groups because everyone was hunting for loot pinatas from 1st boss.

and no dont even for a second try to call pre-organized groups of alts of raiders from hc/mythic guilds a pug . it was never true pug .

on the other hand people didnt feel as much pressure on alts because they could get what 7-8 slots silled with vp/badge gear so most just stayed away from raiding and had fun farming dungeons.

trying to force people into raiding was the worst decision ever done by blizz - and in legion mythic + prove that - that there is significant audience there who given chance to avoid raiding will avoid radiin - devs are just to incompetent to admit it even though they have perfect data/proof with mythic + . They even had to artificially lower the rewards in mythic + compared to their difficulty because they knew that most of people prefer 5mans>raids.

but they cannot go back becase it would prove once and for all that the worst cancer in wow are raids which drives ton of people away from game.

[Deleted]

Pugging was fine up until Cataclysm

On private servers, maybe?

[ifrah]

You didn't like that healer in dps spec? Or that lovely hunter or (insert class here) not knowing a damn thing? Tank was getting oneshot all the time? You have just had enough of the wiping part and fancy do some farm stuff? Or don't like the attitude (you can insert ilevel requirement here) of the group overall? Solution to all, from vanilla to today, make your own group, join a guild, don't pug.
I do still however agree that the server community isn't what it used to be. That probably has its own influence on the pug culture, but when looking back at the wonderful vanilla communities, do remember that everything was still so new and exciting. It affects people's minds just a bit. A tiny little bit. And I think due to this very thing the early years' communities were good and closely knit, but the game was shit (compared to today overall. Be honest, it was. We enjoyed it because it was new and exciting.). The game has now gotten better, but the community not so much.

[Nubulous]

he clearly didnt pug back then - how many pugs i remeber breaking after first 1-2 bosses and then nobobdy wanted to join those groups because everyone was hunting for loot pinatas from 1st boss.

and no dont even for a second try to call pre-organized groups of alts of raiders from hc/mythic guilds a pug . it was never true pug .

on the other hand people didnt feel as much pressure on alts because they could get what 7-8 slots silled with vp/badge gear so most just stayed away from raiding and had fun farming dungeons.

trying to force people into raiding was the worst decision ever done by blizz - and in legion mythic + prove that - that there is significant audience there who given chance to avoid raiding will avoid radiin - devs are just to incompetent to admit it even though they have perfect data/proof with mythic + . They even had to artificially lower the rewards in mythic + compared to their difficulty because they knew that most of people prefer 5mans>raids.

but they cannot go back becase it would prove once and for all that the worst cancer in wow are raids which drives ton of people away from game.

This game would of died out or at the very least withered years ago if they cut raiding from it. It is IMO one of the core features that seperates it from other MMOS

[ydraw]

The only thing "forcing" people into raiding nowadays is tier gear, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake. I am looking forward to the next expansion where choosing to do only dungeons will be a legitimate progression path.

[andy123456]

The only thing "forcing" people ihownto raiding nowadays is tier gear, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake. I am looking forward to the next expansion where choosing to do only dungeons will be a legitimate progression path.

how about good trinket from raids and easy item level upgrades from raids . as Artifact weapon is being removed , chances are high better weapons will drop from raid.
By planning to remove tier set , Blizz just removed a tension for them self as they are pretty bad at tier set design

[ifrah]

The only thing "forcing" people into raiding nowadays is tier gear, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake. I am looking forward to the next expansion where choosing to do only dungeons will be a legitimate progression path.

I don't know how many people still play PvP on any "serious" level, but utterly shafting the whole PvP gearing system might have been one of the largest contributors to the "forced into raiding." Far, far greater mistake than any of the tier sets, which have been raid-obtainable since day 1.

[ydraw]

I don't know how many people still play PvP on any "serious" level, but utterly shafting the whole PvP gearing system might have been one of the largest contributors to the "forced into raiding." Far, far greater mistake than any of the tier sets, which have been raid-obtainable since day 1.

Why though?

If all you do is PvP why do you need gear at all? Isn't it normalised anyway?