A new way to fix ilvl and raiding

[Kaesebrezen]

No, ilevel is a huge solution in raiding. The problem is when systems like titanforging break the natural ilevel progression.

It does not. Just stop with it.

A group that primarily raided normal tomb could still get plenty upgrades in normal antorus. A group that only raided heroic tomb could still get plenty of upgrades in heroic antorus.

Primary issues with gear progression are setitems and legendaries taking up a signficant portion of your item slots, rendering any other item on these slots useless.
Then there are mythic raiders that in the worst case split farm a raid seveal times a weak, then obviously the number of titanforges you see on a single player will be signficantly higher.

Fact is that for anyone outside of mythic raiders, titanforging was very little of a problem, and all that stuff blocking equipment slots is gone, even will be less so.

[Allenseiei]

Cap titanforging and you solve the ilvl problem.

[Tradu]

Ok, I'm the most non-technical guy there is, but I will try to learn logs so I can log myself and get rid of all this flaming going on.

This should help

[JackWest]

You can't judge the "tabbed out sometimes to play hearthstone" attempts as representative of what I CAN do.

Well, with everyone saying "i can do this and I can do that, if I wanted/tried" I think thats irrelevant. Only thing that matters is what you ACTUALLY do, which in your case is shit

[kamuimac]

Cap titanforging and you solve the ilvl problem.

TF already has its "soft cap" build in due to diminishing chances with each +5 itlv - nobody sane without serious OCD will try to get upgrade which has like <1% drop chance .

[HyperJay]

You can't judge the "tabbed out sometimes to play hearthstone" attempts as representative of what I CAN do. Like I said, I'm cursed and my most recent run, where I estimate I'd be in the 90th+ percentile was not logged. I consider learning how to log just go update that damn log site, even though I hate the idea of logs to begin with.

And I did perform quite well in other scaled envoirments. For a long time I was the highest Rogue of my realm (High Population back in WoD) on the proving grounds, I did CM gold on multiple characters and even organized some boost runs to make some gold. Point is, scaled things are great, it really allows you to show what you can do if you are not so ilvl depending.

- - - Updated - - -




I never claimed it would be a flawless system, becuase nothing is. It's just a step in the direction of making us more equal by scaling gear and ilvl.

Holy mega kek and a half. Tabbed out to play hearthstone I can't man. Legit why are you arguing to make raids awful when you apparently don't even care for them

[Azerate]

This is incredibly stupid

[Deleted]

Holy mega kek and a half. Tabbed out to play hearthstone I can't man. Legit why are you arguing to make raids awful when you apparently don't even care for them

Best thing is to just stop arguing with him, he will stick to his "arguments" and find excuses to everything, even if it contradicts what he has posted earlier.

[Dracodraco]

It does not. Just stop with it.

A group that primarily raided normal tomb could still get plenty upgrades in normal antorus. A group that only raided heroic tomb could still get plenty of upgrades in heroic antorus.

Primary issues with gear progression are setitems and legendaries taking up a signficant portion of your item slots, rendering any other item on these slots useless.
Then there are mythic raiders that in the worst case split farm a raid seveal times a weak, then obviously the number of titanforges you see on a single player will be signficantly higher.

Fact is that for anyone outside of mythic raiders, titanforging was very little of a problem, and all that stuff blocking equipment slots is gone, even will be less so.

Totally dude. Not like Titanforging gets you to +970 item level just from doing heroic, no split raids etc:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ll/dracokricaz

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/dracomaros (might be logged in shadow, WQs)

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ll/dracoreinda

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/draconorea (Note: 1x mythic item, hands, but I have 965 hands from M+ with worse itemisation that it would be wearing if I didn't get these).

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ll/dracostralz (Might be logged in Elemental, WQs).

I have FIVE of them. Are you seriously going to tell me that being able to get to 970+ item level in heroic, when Mythic drops 960, isn't an issue? This isn't mains being split-fed gear either; This is just a bunch of alts I do a single M+ on every week, and a heroic run when I can be bothered. Getting to 970+ with the Argus trinket, 2x legendaries and the weapon + titanforging is simple as fuck, and mythic only gives me 960 loot. Yea, not an issue at all.

[XDurionX]

You "fixed" a problem that doesn't exist and killed raiding in the process.

[Deleted]

No, my entire point, in ALL my "tantrums" is that I don't lack the skill, only the gear for my alts etc. With scaled raids, all my problems would be solved, and people would see that I can perform well, as long as I am given the gear.

YES YOU DO! YOU DIE ON FELHOUNDS AND PARSE AROUND 50% MAX ON EVERY BOSS! SINCE WEEKS WE TELL YOU, YOU ARE NOT SKILLED!

Stop the lies please.

[Deleted]

iLvl is a huge problem in raiding.

It's not. Things start hard and become progressively easier with extra gear.

It has worked for a decade, and it will continue to work for another decade.

- - - Updated - - -

TF already has its "soft cap" build in due to diminishing chances with each +5 itlv - nobody sane without serious OCD will try to get upgrade which has like <1% drop chance .

Yeah no, half the raiding community during progression was doing heroic and normal for that purpose, especially the trinket and tier bosses.

[Temp name]

What would this solve? Pugs now have a good reason to discriminate based on ilvl (They get better gear). People still wouldn't have a choice what they raid, it just means guilds have to raid ALL current expansion raids to get all the best gear for their raiders, instead of just 1.
And not to mention, they now take way longer to clear too. Instead of being able to do EN in like 20-30 minutes, it'd now take over an hour

[Deleted]

it would end the same a pvp - in ton of people bitching because without overgearing stuff by 50 itlv they cant do shit easily same like with pvp templates they cant obliterate people in greens with full pvp gear anymore so they claim that "pvp is dead" :0

people dont want chalenge - they just want a feeling that they can exclude others from content they do.

No, they want to be rewarded for the effort they put in.

It's fairly logical that someone that plays or raids at a higher standard than you, is more powerful than you.

If they should be scaling anything, it's loot rewards via personal loot being scaled on how well you performed that boss when compared to other players in the raid, it would finally require the entire raiding community to step up and not be a bunch of free loaders, because that's what 95% of the pugs are lately, too used to be handed everything on a silver platter.

[Mlz]

YES YOU DO! YOU DIE ON FELHOUNDS AND PARSE AROUND 50% MAX ON EVERY BOSS! SINCE WEEKS WE TELL YOU, YOU ARE NOT SKILLED!

Stop the lies please.

No point in arguing with him. Just look up his log history throughout the years - he's always been that '50-percentile-guy'.

Thinking about it he reminds me a guy I used to raid with - always blamed his shit grey percentiles on his gear. So he finally got all the bis pieces with trinkets and such and still sucked ass but this time he started to blame shitty procs and what not. They will ALWAYS find an excuse because human brain is just wired in a way where they really do not want to admit they might just be bad (if I'm doing well it's because I'm awesome VS if I'm doing bad it's because of the conditions I'm being put into). I's just sad when people still remain so oblivious after all the hard truth has been laid out to them.

[exochaft]

I have FIVE of them. Are you seriously going to tell me that being able to get to 970+ item level in heroic, when Mythic drops 960, isn't an issue? This isn't mains being split-fed gear either; This is just a bunch of alts I do a single M+ on every week, and a heroic run when I can be bothered. Getting to 970+ with the Argus trinket, 2x legendaries and the weapon + titanforging is simple as fuck, and mythic only gives me 960 loot. Yea, not an issue at all.

It's actually not a problem when you consider how much time on average it takes for a person to actually get to 970+ ilvl depending upon how they do raid. On average, you'll hit 970 faster running mythic raids based upon how the titanforging chances work. Getting a 960 item to jump +10 ilvl is much more likely to occur than a 945 jumping +25 ilvl, or a 930 jumping +40 ilvl. Sure, it happens, it's like winning the lottery, a few people get lucky and get titanforges galore, others are still stuck with baseline gear for most of a patch cycle.

Keep in mind why the titanforge system is currently designed as is. Simplest way to view the system is that it offers a path of progression no matter which content you run. As I stated earlier, since the chances to titanforge gets increasingly harder the higher the item jumps from baseline ilvl, it still separates the raid difficulties with minimal impact over time and encourages you to run more difficult content to gear out faster. If you're a normal raiding guild as your progression, you still won't gear up as fast as a heroic/mythic raid guild, but you can still progress you ilvl higher by staying in normal (it just takes longer). This potentially allows the normal raiding group to be able to tackle heroic because their ilvl keeps going up in normal over time, allowing them to "outgear" the content from their perspective. Also, this allows mythic+ to be an alternate and viable method of end game progression.

Honestly, there are much bigger problems, as some people have mentioned, and ilvl is just the masking the real issues. The current tier/relic/legendary system has tons of problems, and ilvl just exacerbates them. For example, many specs are stuck using old tier pieces of inferior ilvl because tier bonuses are too powerful to not use. I can't dump the old 2pc on some of my chars even with maxed out titanforged pieces in those slots because it's so strong. I have a similar problem with relics, where some relic traits are so powerful that +40-60 ilvls is still not an upgrade (crucible can make this worse, too). Legendaries... yeah, just legendaries, I doubt I need to say more about this. I left trinkets out of the list, because that's been an issue since forever, and Arcanocrystal (for some classes) just made it apparent a problem that always existed in some form.

Legion appears to be dumping tier set bonus, and I'm perfectly okay with that as it solves one of the problems with raiding that's compounded by ilvl. Besides tons of gear from raids likely never seeing real use despite how high the ilvl is, currently being locked in up to 8 gear slots due to tier/legendaries (ignoring trinkets) is terrible. I doubt I'm the only one that's trashed tons of mythic+ weekly chest drops because no matter how good the ilvl, you just can't use it due to being gear locked. Plus, this will make mythic+ an even more viable end game progression since you technically still had to raid to maximize yourself. I won't comment on the artifact weapon 2.0 gear in BfA since it's way too early to make informed comments about it.

Now I have a couple of other issues, specifically when it comes to mythic raiding, but that's another thread.

[Dracodraco]

It's actually not a problem when you consider how much time on average it takes for a person to actually get to 970+ ilvl depending upon how they do raid. On average, you'll hit 970 faster running mythic raids based upon how the titanforging chances work. Getting a 960 item to jump +10 ilvl is much more likely to occur than a 945 jumping +25 ilvl, or a 930 jumping +40 ilvl. Sure, it happens, it's like winning the lottery, a few people get lucky and get titanforges galore, others are still stuck with baseline gear for most of a patch cycle.

About two months of running heroic Antorus had my characters hitting the 970 marks. You'll notice my druid (because it's not limited by tier because it is literally the worst for guardian druids) have barely had five full clears, and my DK is at 6-7 or so. The only alts I did *every* week has been my warlock, and then my priest/shaman closely following. I'd also argue this seems fairly consistent considering I've been able to do it five times - it's either that or I am some kind of demi-god when it comes to alt luck, but I don't really think that's the case.

Keep in mind why the titanforge system is currently designed as is. Simplest way to view the system is that it offers a path of progression no matter which content you run. As I stated earlier, since the chances to titanforge gets increasingly harder the higher the item jumps from baseline ilvl, it still separates the raid difficulties with minimal impact over time and encourages you to run more difficult content to gear out faster. If you're a normal raiding guild as your progression, you still won't gear up as fast as a heroic/mythic raid guild, but you can still progress you ilvl higher by staying in normal (it just takes longer). This potentially allows the normal raiding group to be able to tackle heroic because their ilvl keeps going up in normal over time, allowing them to "outgear" the content from their perspective. Also, this allows mythic+ to be an alternate and viable method of end game progression.

Right, I don't exactly need a lesson in how the system works. Clearly I am well aware considering the amount of geared characters. I don't think you're correct though; I think "titanforging" is far too reliable a way of gearing for a non-mythic raider. Lets contrast a little:

The week my guild killed Mythic Argus (after about one and a half months of progress, WITH christmas in the middle of that), our raids average item level was 967.3, and we killed it in the top 100:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...yFr#fight=last

That same week, my
Shaman was 964: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...=hps&boss=2070
Warlock was 966: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...=dps&boss=2088
Druid was 964: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...=dps&boss=2088

You get the idea. My heroic geared alts are only trailing behind the FULL MYTHIC raid that's had *two heroic split raids* up till that point and full mythic farm churning loot into them, by as little as *one* item level. I'd make arguments that my alts were better geared than my hunter for long periods, but that's because of tier items and arcanocrystal which you already touch on, so that's fair; That's why I figured "Ok, lets take the average of an ENTIRE mythic raid in the top 100".

Simply put, personal loot heroic pugs and a weekly M+ cache can keep you within 1-2 item upgrades worth of gear compared to a guild that's running mythic - mainly because personal loot is far more abundant than masterlooting, and because mythic raiders tend to *waste* a ton of the extra 960 gear DUE to heroic titanforging already having filled their slots. I mean, my warlock already has a 960 eonar ring and a 970 kin'garoth one; If I brought it there and jewellery dropped, it'd be disenchanted because I *already had it*.

That's the issue. The *potential* for upgrades in mythic is present, but *because* the potential for upgrades comes from *everything*, the effective upgrades actually gotten by raiding mythic is far smaller than most people seem to realise. Most base 960 items (outside of tier) gets thrown away because of legendaries, set slots (which you also touch on and I obviously agree with), and if it's actually a useful item for someone like a pair of leather boots, chances are they already have a titanforged (or atleast a warforged) version from Heroic.

TL;DR -
Heroic raiding lets you keep up with mythic gearing, because 4x base 960 items simply isn't enough to outpace the amount of heroic items you can aquire in a week through personal loot, a long with guaranteed 960 mythic cache items.

[impending doom]

About two months of running heroic Antorus had my characters hitting the 970 marks. You'll notice my druid (because it's not limited by tier because it is literally the worst for guardian druids) have barely had five full clears, and my DK is at 6-7 or so. The only alts I did *every* week has been my warlock, and then my priest/shaman closely following. I'd also argue this seems fairly consistent considering I've been able to do it five times - it's either that or I am some kind of demi-god when it comes to alt luck, but I don't really think that's the case.

...

I think "titanforging" is far too reliable a way of gearing for a non-mythic raider.

Yes you can get to 970 easily without mythic raiding, but "actual" titanforging doesn't contribute much at all to this. Legendaries and artifact weapon gives a big boost to total ilvl, as well as weekly M+ chest but that's a different issue than RNG titanforging. I agree that those guaranteed 960+ pieces from weekly M+15 are just too easy to get, IMO they should need at least M+20. Although after 2-3 months of Antorus I think it's not a bad thing to allow some catch up mechanics.

Your druid has 0 actual RNG titanforged pieces so removing or capping titanforging would make zero effect there(apart of that weekly chest gear). Most raiders gain less than 3 total ilvl from actual titanforging. Top hardcore raiders have average 1 titanforged piece from HC Antorius.

So I would say actual titanforging is not a big issue, it's just a tip of an iceberg and have almost no affect on character performance, and seem to be mostly just a psychological effect. As the earlier poster pointed out the issues with gearing are more about other things.

[Nubulous]

Totally dude. Not like Titanforging gets you to +970 item level just from doing heroic, no split raids etc:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ll/dracokricaz

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/dracomaros (might be logged in shadow, WQs)

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ll/dracoreinda

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/draconorea (Note: 1x mythic item, hands, but I have 965 hands from M+ with worse itemisation that it would be wearing if I didn't get these).

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ll/dracostralz (Might be logged in Elemental, WQs).

I have FIVE of them. Are you seriously going to tell me that being able to get to 970+ item level in heroic, when Mythic drops 960, isn't an issue? This isn't mains being split-fed gear either; This is just a bunch of alts I do a single M+ on every week, and a heroic run when I can be bothered. Getting to 970+ with the Argus trinket, 2x legendaries and the weapon + titanforging is simple as fuck, and mythic only gives me 960 loot. Yea, not an issue at all.

Feelsbad that im not even 970 equip on my main(only 968, 975 in bags) and you have 5 that are 970+ haha. To be fair im using 2 piece tier 20 and a 910 arcano so it lowers ilvl a bit. Also 10/11 mythic right now. Just goes to show you how unrewarding mythic is atm when you can just netflix and heroic every week

Heck my alt mage has only 23 total antorus boss kills 11/11 though, and is at 955 or so. I would imagine anyone doing heroic since release should be at least 965 without any mythic plus. I also dont think I have done more than maybe 1 mythic plus on my mage. If I would of been going +15s this whole time id prob be up there

[Jastall]

Totally dude. Not like Titanforging gets you to +970 item level just from doing heroic, no split raids etc:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ll/dracokricaz

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/dracomaros (might be logged in shadow, WQs)

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ll/dracoreinda

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ull/draconorea (Note: 1x mythic item, hands, but I have 965 hands from M+ with worse itemisation that it would be wearing if I didn't get these).

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ll/dracostralz (Might be logged in Elemental, WQs).

I have FIVE of them. Are you seriously going to tell me that being able to get to 970+ item level in heroic, when Mythic drops 960, isn't an issue? This isn't mains being split-fed gear either; This is just a bunch of alts I do a single M+ on every week, and a heroic run when I can be bothered. Getting to 970+ with the Argus trinket, 2x legendaries and the weapon + titanforging is simple as fuck, and mythic only gives me 960 loot. Yea, not an issue at all.

You kinda listed the reasons why your toon would want to be doing Mythic however. Legendaries + weapons inflate your ilvl by at least 10. My own Death Knight is 959 with the gear where I don't go for set bonuses, and yet I could use a few pieces from Normal (mostly two relics and a trinket) and almost anything in Heroic apart from four slots is an upgrade, despite by ilvl nominally telling me Mythic is the only option.

I'm no fan of the current TF system and would cap it at +10 in raids, but let's not overstate its actual effects. In practice, Mythic raiders are better geared than Heroic raiders who are better geared than Normal raiders. M+ also straight up does not work without TF, and I for one think it fine that it exists as another progression path.