Good Gameplay is not the point, Immersion is

[Tonkaden]

Blizzard's policy of gameplay above all ironically resulted in worse gameplay since you're not immersed in the game anymore.

"Immersed" is such a cop out, bull shit response.

You weren't immersed once you hit the cap. How many of you ran circles in the IF bank or on top of the roof in org?

That first "feeling" in WoW will NEVER be re-captured again. Period. Anyone thinking otherwise is fooling themselves. Everything is familiar to you. Trust me, its not going to feel the same.

You honestly think people arent going to power through the leveling experience? ROFL
You honestly think that people aren't going to sit around , mashing their nuts with nothing to do? ROFL
You honestly think that a classic server is going to let you "immerse" yourself again? ROFL

Some of you crack me up. Literally.

Instead of a garrison / order hall to sit in, you will be in IF doing laps or Org doing laps while you wait on your PvP queue or spam trade for a dungeon run.
Instead of daily grinding, you will grind rep without quests.
Instead of daily grinding, you will grind materials for raids.

You will see in the end, that nothing has to do with immersion at all. Its a go to for those with weak fucking arguments.

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That's the big problem for me. At least with the newer expansion content it is "new" but with vanilla... I'm not saying its not fun but most of the fun for me back then was being a teenager, it being my first multiplayer game and the entire game (warcraft in general) being new to me. Playing on Private servers I still remembered the majority of the quests and there wasn't a lot of exploration it was just point A to point B

And it will be Point A to B again. People will get questie. If not, a lot of people know or remember where the quests are. The new car feeling just won't be there.

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While I don't agree with the "inferior gameplay than live" portion, I do think the first part is a valid point. Probably the only point worth discussing in regards to what could prevent overall immersion: the mystery being gone from your brain towards the world you are seeing/experiencing.

Again. There is no overall immersion. You have been playing WoW for a decade. You have seen the world and all the quests numerous times. What is there to immerse yourself into? Classic isn't going to be a new game. Its going to be a brand new car with its body replaced with a 1987 pinto's.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Blizzard annoucing classic put an end to most of the most common response to your comment, which used to be that you don't really want to play classic wow, it is just nostalgia. I was always fascinated at the implied arrogance of telling someone else what they think and why they think it.

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To elaborate on this

1) everything will work right on official servers.
2) on ps, if you are not close to server, you will have lag issues that make pvp almost impossible and other issues as well. try melee dps 6000 miles from a private server in bg. official servers put pvp back on table, though what they do with the bg's is another issue entirely. Maybe they think the 4.1 WSG gy changes were brilliant and carry them over?

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I disagree with the premise of your statement and I do not believe blizzard's position 'for the fans/preserve history' is actually their internal position nor their motive.

Classic wow is about money. they are a publicly traded company whose largest holder is bobby kotick (blizz was not merged into Activision until late BC post-2.4 (merger closed post 2.4) and they just took on some billions in new debt to finance the King acquisition.

I respect your right to disagree, but be aware that you are disagreeing with a quote from Blizz in PC Gamer not with me. I don't have a stake in this one way or the other.

[Deficineiron]

I respect your right to disagree, but be aware that you are disagreeing with a quote from Blizz in PC Gamer not with me. I don't have a stake in this one way or the other.

thanks. this is correct, I am saying when blizzard says 'aw shucks we don't care about the money or how many people play' in so many words, it seems likely they are not expressing the same viewpoint they are in meetings with the A/B team. I don't doubt individuals within blizzard, perhaps even Names, might prefer to just release classic essentially as-was and let it go from there, but sentimentality is not part of the A/B core value playbook.

[ringpriest]

This is taken from the Warcraft sub-reddit page, and given the amount of arguments going on right now, I personally think this is a proper time to post this:



I experienced vanilla WoW myself and the phrase "slow down, enjoy the view" really stands out to me looking back on that experience.

If you're going into Classic with the same gaming mentality that currently persists at the moment, you will be missing out.

Also, it could be that the mystery is gone. That players who have played for years know this game inside and out to really feel immersed. Classic will offer you a chance to "wipe the slate clean" perhaps?

Very nicely put, and very much what I'm hoping to do - roll a class I never played in "the good old days", but that I liked in later form (almost certain to be druid, though lock or shammy are outside possibilities), do a little questing (probably on the Alliance side, since I got Loremaster on my Horde main in Wrath), do some crafting and fishing (still far from making my mind up on profs, but the fishing is a certainty), heal or tank the occasional group quest, maybe see some old friends in-game, and generally do some lazy gaming when the urge takes me. (I find that I'm really looking forward to this if Blizz doesn't eff it up.)

[Jastall]

I respect your right to disagree, but be aware that you are disagreeing with a quote from Blizz in PC Gamer not with me. I don't have a stake in this one way or the other.

I have to join the poster you quoted as to Blizzard's motives. They aren't doing this for the fans or for history. This is of course about the money, as it has always been. Nevermind Activision, the higher ups at Blizzard itself would never greenlight this project, inject millions in hiring and training new people to create the infrastructure in which Classic can survive, but not care if these investments give them a solid return or not. Blizzard has literally never operated like that. They have taken calculated risks over their lifetime (WoW was one in the first place) but they have never embarked on a project without expecting their money back. I simply do not believe that they would be pleased if Classic ends up only retaining the most hardcore vanilla purists and not making money.

[ringpriest]

"Immersed" is such a cop out, bull shit response.

You weren't immersed once you hit the cap. How many of you ran circles in the IF bank or on top of the roof in org?

I spent months completing Dungeon Set 1 and turning it into Dungeon Set 2 in my spare time; BC came out before I finished - no running circles anywhere (save in the BRD) was involved.

You honestly think people arent going to power through the leveling experience? ROFL

I don't have time to power through the leveling experience even should I want to do so - I'm going to play casually whether I want to or not. (And anyone who has already played classic is just cheating themselves by doing so; it would be like cheating at solitaire - sure you can, but why on earth would you want to?)

You honestly think that people aren't going to sit around , mashing their nuts with nothing to do? ROFL

Again, that is their problem - classic WoW had far, far more to do than I (or most people) will ever have time to do in it (as it did back when I played it); the idea that I (or anyone) will have nothing to do in-game is risible - people may choose to do "nothing", either because they're busy chatting (or even, <mock shudder> roleplaying) with friends, or because they're only willing to engage the game on their terms (for example, if you insist on leveling through dungeons, but aren't capable of finding a good guild or group of dungeon-crawling friends, then you'll spend a lot of time in Org spamming LFG in chat - until or unless you roll a tank or healer, whereupon that problem will disappear if you're any good at all).

You honestly think that a classic server is going to let you "immerse" yourself again? ROFL

If by "immersion" one means, as the OP clearly did: force players to deal with the whole of the world and the game instead of turning a MMORPG into a lobby game, then yes, it absolutely will, unless Blizzard chooses to remove what made classic WoW classic.

Instead of a garrison / order hall to sit in, you will be in IF doing laps or Org doing laps while you wait on your PvP queue or spam trade for a dungeon run.
Instead of daily grinding, you will grind rep without quests.
Instead of daily grinding, you will grind materials for raids.

I'm starting to doubt you ever played classic: 1) depending on what they go with, the PvP queue may require travel to the battleground, 2) without dailies, you can grind (or not) on your own terms (I may very well end up spending a pleasant weekend zoning out, watching TV and slaughtering firbolgs), but grinding and rep are hardly required to play, which leads into 3) hardly anyone ever raided.

You have been playing WoW for a decade.

I've been subbed for maybe six months is the last five years (during MoP); I'm pretty sure I'm exactly who Blizz is targeting with this.

You have seen the world and all the quests numerous times.

The only time I played Alliance before Cataclysm I was carried and boosted quite a bit by friends who were raiding MC when I started playing, in Cataclysm I leveled almost exclusive via BG and dungeon - there are plenty of quests I've never seen, and doubtless parts of the game I do not remember.

What is there to immerse yourself into?

An actual MMORPG, not the glorified mish-mash WoW became.

Classic isn't going to be a new game.

Ah, thank you for that clarification, I would not want to have gone on thinking is was some sort of brand-new, totally original offering - would you care to share any more keen insights derived from your deep, and doubtless keenly self-aware wisdom? But please - do not stress yourself, I'm sure coming up with that brilliantly novel observation that "Classic isn't going to be a new game" taxed your faculties and you require time to recover - but perhaps you could post another such sage monograph in a year (or two)?

[Nitros14]

I don't think that made much sense by itself. If they had not cared so much about gameplay, it would have become a better game?

The quality of life 'improvements' are what I'm referring to.

[Nomads]

Enjoy picking a class and being bound to one spec at end game.

It only costs 50g to respec... you're not bound to anything, lol.

[Gavll]

I played in vanilla for a year and I've played 4 years on PServers and every month or so there'd always be some new item show up that I'd never seen or I'd forgotten existed which surprised me.

Our guild summoners would always find crazy new places to summon us to that you shouldn't be able to get to.

Somebody would demonstrate a new mechanic to skip bosses in raids or dungeons.

So it's not true that there isn't stuff you haven't seen or don't remember in classic. It keeps on surprising me.

[Morssoe]

I prefer classic cause it is simple. In classic you primarily focus on gathering materials for raids. In legion you have tons of things that you can do, but it is not required. Making it very messy overall.

[littlelark]

This is one of the most subjective thread topics I've ever seen..

[Deleted]

And vanilla is for old people with the reaction time of a corpse. Most of the time leveling you're not even pressing any Buttons, you're just auto attacking.

Best statement to date.

[Stardrift]

It only costs 50g to respec... you're not bound to anything, lol.

It just went straight over your head, hey? How most classes only have one viable spec for pve?
Don't speak without thinking.

[cparle87]

A lot of players don't want to be immersed. And by a lot I mean a huge amount. They literally just want to clear content others can't and have items others don't so they can feel better by comparison. It's why so many rally for removing achievement mounts and so forth. I know maaany a player even here on MMOC who wanted the mage tower turned off before the next expac (of course right after they got it themselves, because obviously they're very skilled and everyone who gets it after them cheated with higher gear).

A lot of players turn off the sound, turn on their own music, skip all the cutscenes and never read any quest text. They open wowhead and retrieve coordinates for an addon if they can't figure out a quest. They use elitistjerks and icy-veins, read the optimal rotations someone else has figured out, and take the talents a guide told them to, mostly without ever even reading the name of the ability.

These are the players that want vanilla back not because it's immersive, but because getting an epic item is a grind and performing the grind gives them an ego advantage over those who don't. Remember the E-PEEN April Fools joke? It was pretty spot on. Now we have "check out muh parses maaan, 99 percentile!"

I think OP's quote is really idealistic. It would be great if that is what it boiled down to but after playing this game for 13 years I can tell you a sizable chunk does not love warcraft for warcraft, they don't give a shit about stopping and smelling the roses.

They love being quantifiably better than someone else at something and easily pointing it out.

Gotta agree with you here. Can't tell you how many times I've said in gchat "Hey, isn't this the VA from such and such a game?" or "Did they change this mob's quotes?" and the response I get is "I don't play with sound."

[Deleted]

Gotta agree with you here. Can't tell you how many times I've said in gchat "Hey, isn't this the VA from such and such a game?" or "Did they change this mob's quotes?" and the response I get is "I don't play with sound."

It's tricky, not sure if I'm alone here, but I always found the sound balancing to be pretty poor in WoW. Some abilities are just way louder than others, and it's tough to balance the audio around that, especially if you're in content that demands communication. Even without that necessity sometimes it can be refreshing to tune out and listen to music instead.

[Army Dreamer]

Good Gameplay is not the point, Immersion is

Forced immersion is drowning.

[MechaCThun]

This is one of the most subjective thread topics I've ever seen..

It is one of the more opinion based topics about Classic WoW, yeah. I still think the overal message from the OP post remains a big, if not the biggest, point to discuss about why Classic WoW could/would work and be received well.

[Tiwack]

A rpg that doesn't focus on immersion is hardly rpg - the point is to provide good gameplay that requires social interaction if you're gonna call it an mmo. Otherwise why wouldn't you make a singleplayer experience filled with shitty AI npcs? It'd certainly be easier. Immersion can be achieved in many ways and what works for some won't work for others. Some don't want to be immersed beyond bashing monsters skulls which is easy to achieve and a game doesn't need the rpg tag for that criteria.
What is immersive to some will be a PITA to others - that's the problem.

Imo you can have an immersive mmo-experience in an rpg setting with LFD-tool together with LFR, but that's just me who thinks the design philosophy of less is more and bring the player not the class together with questing on rails has done damage to the immersiveness of the game.
Besides mission tables does damage to both gameplay and immersiveness just to game some arbitrary wall street stats...

[littlelark]

It is one of the more opinion based topics about Classic WoW, yeah. I still think the overal message from the OP post remains a big, if not the biggest, point to discuss about why Classic WoW could/would work and be received well.

I don't think, in cases such as this, the question of will it be well received could possibly have a definitive answer. There are so many different types of players that play for so many different reasons, such a broad stroke is likely to warrant different answers, and the reasons for such are completely anecdotal.

I think the only fair way to analyze its success is to evaluate how well the game executes either respective aspect; if it is not immersive (in your opinion), is the gameplay good enough? If it has poor gameplay (in your opinion), is the world immersive enough for you to enjoy? It's not a question of whether the game is X or Y, but how well X or Y is implemented in the opinion of those that seek to play the game the way they enjoy.

[WoWGoneBad]

I have just picked the game back up after about a 4-6ish year hyaitus and started a new Warrior.

My fave part about was was feeling like the lone adventurer roaming the lands looking to make some coin and see the world. I have been on my Warrior for about 2 weeks now and I am right now lvl 46 and bout 1/3rd through Ashenvale. I started out in Mulgore and then went to Durotar, hit up Aszhara and now working through Ashenvale.

I love seeing all the intereaction between me and the NPCs, I read all the quest text, slaughter all who need to be wiped out and making my coin. It feels good. I REALLY REALLY REALLY have that itch to just rush to endgame and get in on the Raid action, but as I keep walking........ I just keep picking up quests where ever I find them.

I am getting all the old school nostalgia of immersion that I had back in Vanilla, but what I miss the most is the old combat styles. I miss my Hunter that would dual wield and slay enemies side by side with my pet. CRUSHING my enemies under my YUGE Maces without that Malestrom bullshit that they did to my Shammy class.....

I am just fine with playing on Live and getting my nostalgia fix, but am anxious to see the very beginning of WoW all over again with the Classic Servers.