Is it me or does wow is getting little more casual/easier each new expansion?

[Brubear]

The game is becoming more accessible, not easier. Boss/mob mechanics are the most complex and challenging they've ever been to be honest.

This nails it.

The floor may be a lot lower now than it was during Vanilla/TBC, but the ceiling is still pretty high, and arguably higher, than what it was before.

I'm willing to bet that if you took the top current raiding guilds, and threw them into a vanilla environment without any of the current resources (websites/mods/etc) they'd still be able to beat the max content fairly quickly as the only real barriers would be time (how long it takes to gear up) and logistics (getting 25-40 people on consistently). But if you took the top raiders from the early days and threw them into Legion, they would struggle with the learning curve needed to stay at the top of the current raiding scene.

So the floor may be a lot lower, but the ceilings are now like up there like a cathedral compared to the two-story bungalow we had at the start.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Maybe your "casual" friends are just better than they used to be?
Plus we're in the final patch, where there's always gear hyper-inflation. Remember in WoD when Mythic Fel Reaver died in 19 seconds?

[bloodmoth13]

I measured this by looking at pug successes every expansion (anecdotal )
How quickly you can get geard (anecdotal )
How easy are the mobs whlist leveling etc.

Ofcourse pugging in vanilla/tbc was pretty nonexistent, gearing was slow and 2/3 mobs killed you.

As Activision partnerd with Blizzard during wotlk it is then we got some taste of catching up mechanics;

1. Badges
2. Tuned raids for pugs
3. LFD

Turning back to legion, everything is a faceroll. Players assume mythic+15 is hard content, where I see my casual friends running them daily. The gear is very easy to get in Legion, the systems in places are created as everything is a faceroll.
PVP got very easy now too.

Pugging in Legion is soo easy that people don’t bother with normal/heroic guilds no more.


Is it me or wow is getting more casual each expansion/]?

Its not necessarily a bad thing. Making the game snowball is terrible for the game long term, unless you are on the cutting edge then there is no chance to catch up, i remember early WotLK when i was late to 80 and nobody wanted to do any of the content that bridged the gap to raids. Sitting in dalaran spamming trade chat for a dungeon group for 3 hours isnt what i call engaging gameplay.

The way i see it, the game SHOULD be accessible and have smooth progression, but also have a very high skillcap. Easy to learn, hard to master comes to mind.
As long as the hardest tier of raiding isnt trivial, im not sure why anyone would care that raidfinder is a thing

[Mazzeric]

It's not that WoW itself has become casual. It's that you can now choose to be casual, and get a lot out of it. There's a difference.

Dungeon content, raiding, and PVE in general has never been harder at the high end.

[corebit]

WoW started out as the casual alternative to more hardcore games like Everquest or Ultima. Back in 2004, players from other MMORPGs laughed at WoW for being the cartoon game for kids.

But the idea of "casual" has evolved over the years as MMORPGs matured and eventually declined. So yes, certain aspects of the game become more casual with each expansion because the playerbase has also become more casual.

[Tommi]

As Activision partnerd with Blizzard during wotlk it is then we got some taste of catching up mechanics;

1. Badges

AHKTUALLY.....

Badges were TBC.

[hulkgor]

Yea, it's been like this since WOTLK with slight changes as every patch\expansion hits.

Everything is easier and more accessible for everyone.

It's cool for the casual crowd and there are still a couple of 'harder' aspects for people looking for a challenge (Higher M+s, some Mythic encounters, bla bla).

But overall, yes, game is catered to the casual crowd that can't (or doesn't want to) commit much time to it. You can literally complete\do 99,5% content of the game without ever saying a word to anyone, without joining a guild, or even playing entirely on your own, queuing up to various parts of the game from town.

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AHKTUALLY.....

Badges were TBC.

Yea, first real catch-up mechanism on-par with raid gear was on TBC, in the last raid tier, Sunwell, after your server completed some stages of the Isle of Quel'Danas staging area.

[ls-]

I measured this by looking at pug successes every expansion (anecdotal )
How quickly you can get geard (anecdotal )
How easy are the mobs whlist leveling etc.

Ofcourse pugging in vanilla/tbc was pretty nonexistent, gearing was slow and 2/3 mobs killed you.

As Activision partnerd with Blizzard during wotlk it is then we got some taste of catching up mechanics;

1. Badges
2. Tuned raids for pugs
3. LFD

Turning back to legion, everything is a faceroll. Players assume mythic+15 is hard content, where I see my casual friends running them daily. The gear is very easy to get in Legion, the systems in places are created as everything is a faceroll.
PVP got very easy now too.

Pugging in Legion is soo easy that people don’t bother with normal/heroic guilds no more.


Is it me or wow is getting more casual each expansion/]?

Pugging was huge in Vanilla, in a bit different form though, majority of kills in AQ/BWL/MC were done in raids that consisted members of 2-4 guilds + a bunch of guildless folks.

As for difficulty, there's difficult content for people who want to do difficult content, but significant chunk of the player base doesn't care about it at all.

One last thing, WoW has been casual from day 1, back in the day you didn't play WoW unless you're a casual or it's your first MMORPG, if you wanted hardcore stuff you played something else. Blizz simply keep adjusting the game for the casuals.

[hulkgor]

Dungeon content, raiding, and PVE in general has never been harder at the high end.

I'd disagree entirely. It has never been easier to gear yourself nowadays, even surpassing the available gear from raid. You never had as many sources for gear (raids, m+s, vendors, invasion bosses, argunite gamble, etc). You never has has many, as as useful tools and addons for raiding as you do now, etc.

Sure, Vanilla bosses had 2 mechanics, but you always had encounters that surpassed current content in their difficulty. 4 Horseman on naxx40, Kael'thas and Mu'ru on TBC, Mimiron's Firefighter and Alone in the Darkness on WOTLK, Ragnaros HC on Cata, etc etc etc.

I'd agree that M+s offers a higher challenge (and 'unlimited') than anything before on the dungeon aspect, but that's simply due to the scaling aspect of it. You would also get destroyed if you ran Dire Maul M25 if it was a thing back then.

As for mechanics, let's be real, it's not like they're hard... especially when you have DBM and Weakauras playing the game for you.

It's all about the numbers (damage, healing, hp) and the gear you have, the difference is, today you have too many sources for (and quantity of) loot.

[Soon-TM]

What you are referring to are barriers to entry. Blizzard is trying to keep the barriers to entry into PvP/PvE low in order for more people to be able to do more, thus shifting the "scope" of "casual players" to include more. The more it includes, the more inclined people are to do those things. The more invested they become in those activities (willingness to cross the actual difficult barriers), the higher likelyhood to keep them for a longer period.

Yet participation in PvP has plummeted in Legion... And yes, aside from Mythic raids and high M+ keys (Legion in PvP is a joke imo, so I am leaving it aside), everything is easy af, and badly scaled on top of that. In my personal difficulty rating, LFR gets a 0, or even negative numbers lol. Normal would be a 2 or 3, HC a 5, and Mythic a 10. The difficulty jump from HC to Mythic is staggering, especially with the silly 20-players fixed size.

[hulkgor]

Pugging was huge in Vanilla, in a bit different form though, majority of kills in AQ/BWL/MC were done in raids that consisted members of 2-4 guilds + a bunch of guildless folks.

What? Pugging was non-existant in Vanilla. Yes, some guilds got together to raid earlier on (due to the amount of players required) and tip their toes into the raiding scene, eventually merging together. Pugging was definitely not huge in vanilla.

Actually, "pugging" only really got popular and frequent in WOTLK, due to the low difficulty of the raids, in particular Naxxramas (was HUGE on pugs, everyone ran many, and on their alts) and later in ICC with several runs. Even shit pugs would at least get 4 bosses down until Saurfang.

But nah, don't tell me pugging was huge in vanilla, that's just absurd.

And also... just because WoW was 'easier' than the previous mmos, it was in no way casual in vanilla. The amount of time you had to invest to properly raid (with consumables, repair fees, farming gear from dungeons was a very long process, running UBRS 60 times to attune everyone on your guild, etc) or to grind the pvp ladder... it was not casual in the slightest. People say the silliest things, it's absurd at this point. It's almost as if people didn't even play vanilla and just parrot bullshit they read somewhere to try and make themselves knowledgeable, yet fail.

[ls-]

What? Pugging was non-existant in Vanilla. Yes, some guilds got together to raid earlier on (due to the amount of players required) and tip their toes into the raiding scene, eventually merging together. Pugging was definitely not huge in vanilla.

Actually, "pugging" only really got popular and frequent in WOTLK, due to the low difficulty of the raids, in particular Naxxramas (was HUGE on pugs, everyone ran many, and on their alts) and later in ICC with several runs. Even shit pugs would at least get 4 bosses down until Saurfang.

But nah, don't tell me pugging was huge in vanilla, that's just absurd.

Next thing you're going to tell me is that boost selling didn't exists in Vanilla either.

And also... just because WoW was 'easier' than the previous mmos, it was in no way casual. The amount of time you had to invest to properly raid (with consumables, repair fees, etc) or to grind the pvp ladder... it was not casual in the slightest. People say the silliest things.

But it's easier and more casual friendly, the amount of time you had to invest in those things in WoW was nothing if you compared it to other games back in the day. Also, don't mention WoW's consumables and fees for whatever, it's dirt-cheap in comparison. WoW was, well, is extremely not punishing when it comes to these things.

PvP titles acquisition was probably the only comparable thing, but in the end it's "solved" by RMT or guild and/or faction agreements who and when gets their titles.

It's almost as if people didn't even play vanilla and just parrot bullshit they read somewhere to try and make themselves knowledgeable, yet fail.

Oh, you def sound like one, I bet you also talk a lot about server community and your reputation, ninja-looters being punished and so on?

[FelPlague]

I measured this by looking at pug successes every expansion (anecdotal )
How quickly you can get geard (anecdotal )
How easy are the mobs whlist leveling etc.

Ofcourse pugging in vanilla/tbc was pretty nonexistent, gearing was slow and 2/3 mobs killed you.

As Activision partnerd with Blizzard during wotlk it is then we got some taste of catching up mechanics;

1. Badges
2. Tuned raids for pugs
3. LFD

Turning back to legion, everything is a faceroll. Players assume mythic+15 is hard content, where I see my casual friends running them daily. The gear is very easy to get in Legion, the systems in places are created as everything is a faceroll.
PVP got very easy now too.

Pugging in Legion is soo easy that people don’t bother with normal/heroic guilds no more.


Is it me or wow is getting more casual each expansion/]?

badges were in burning crusade.
but nice try.

[Deleted]

More easier ? Kinda. It is the last patch before the pre-patch and the catch up mechanics are there for the returning players and alts. I`ll tell you that for the lots of people normal and mythic + are hard, for example I`m boosting with friends and I was amazed how many people are willing to pay 200k for a +15. For me +15 is easy, relaxing content which I enjoy making and the gold is just a bonus. For example I find LFR being more hard than heroic bcs of the same people who wants a boost. They either don`t care or are bad. I did not play before Antorus (I was still leveling in the 1st weeks of the raid) but I`m currently 5/11 (sadly with not so good ppl, but I enjoy playing with em) and the mythic seems really easy, you have like 2-3-4 mechanics to watch for and thats it. Game was never hard, it was a bit grindy at the begining but with the addons and QoL changes it became more and more accessible. Catch up mechanics are good I did not want to do the previous raid tiers in order to join my friends and play with em. The only problem I have atm with the game are the F-ing rng legendaries (although my 1st and 2nd leggos were the BiS ones I still dont like this system - ohh and the arcano crystal, fack that sh1t).
PS: Game is not hard, you are older, you understand faster.

[hulkgor]

Next thing you're going to tell me is that boost selling didn't exists in Vanilla either.

Why exactly are you comparing boosts to pugs? Nice argument there.

[Magistrate]

It depends how much you choose to push yourself. Many systems have been streamlined, but difficulty and challenge is there if you choose it.

Also, WoW was largely designed to be a casual, mass-appeal version of the MMOs surrounding and preceding it. So.

[taliey]

Catering to the largest group of people who identify that way?

What kind of business strategy is that?

[ls-]

Why exactly are you comparing boosts to pugs? Nice argument there.

Because just like pugs boosts existed, moreover they became quite common later in Vanilla lifespan, and saying otherwise would be a lie.

[Deleted]

I somehow doubt running m+15 daily counts as casual.

I doubt successfully having completed a M+15 with the timer, even once, is casual.

Casual: irregular; occasional.

Disabled: physically or mentally impaired, injured, or incapacitated.

Casual =/= Disabled.


I can't do progress raiding, but I can do timed 17-19 M+ pug runs with ease anytime. I don't feel disabled, I just can't attend to a strict raiding schedule each week. And I'm not intended to do it either, because it caused me burnout 2 times already.

[hulkgor]

He's talking about the actual encounters. The gear means nothing, it's just means to an end or barrier to entry.
Gear has never been the endgame goal. Killing bosses as fast as possible has. Sure you can grind LFR until you get your mythic TF procs. But that still doesn't make you a competitive mythic raider.

The amount of riverdance co-ordination you have to do in raids these days is not even comparable to the mechanics in Vanilla/TBC. Bosses are ridiculously complex.

What? How does gear mean nothing when it's the main make or break aspect of encounters. Killing adds before they cast something, skipping hard combinations of spells by bypassing a phase faster, avoiding certain aspects of the fight entirely, etc.

Gear is the main aspect about raiding, and the fact that you have so many sources outside the raid to help you with that is astonishing. Especially with Mythic+, people are entering the new raids whilst completely surpassing itemlevel it was designed for or balanced around... even on Mythic and most bosses are trampled without any concern.

Also, a fuckton of recent raid bosses are as simple as they can be in regards to mechanics. Garothi? Skorpyron? Krosus? Guarm? Xavius? Harjatan? Let's be real. There are insanely complicated bosses filled with mechanics, sure, but that's a constant in WoW in regards to last bosses (Firelands Ragnaros HC or Throne of Thunder Lei'Shen were probably on par with current ones) but the vast majority is as simple as they were, don't kid yourselves.

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Because just like pugs boosts existed, moreover they became quite common later in Vanilla lifespan, and saying otherwise would be a lie.

Of course boosts existed. And again, what the hell does that have to do with pugs? Is there a relation between both? Care to explain?

Boosts existed. I remember doing Gold Runs with ~5 buyers as early as Vanilla, even if they only got really popular on our realm in TBC\WOTLK. Pugs on the other hand, were not frequent at all until WOTLK. The only thing that was pugged on vanilla was UBRS and much later the smaller raids in ZG\AQ20 (mostly guild runs + some random fillers)... and i don't think that really matters to your point. Sure, i accept that there were pugs, but i don't believe for a second that they were that widespread during vanilla.