How do we feel these days about M+ scoring?

[Erolian]

Its useful at the higher end of things to compare yourself to other players. If you're needing to check m+ scores to do a 15, well, that's unreasonable and the people running the group more than likely suck.

[tkioz]

On general principle I dislike outside scoring systems as they are prone to the whims the people running it, but the current raider.io system isn't too horrible as far as that goes. The recent change to the leaderboards makes it much more reliable. My main is around 2500 and I've got a few alts at the 1800-2000 range.

My only issue is people asking for scores they don't have themselves. The number of times I've seen people asking for '3k+' when they are sitting on 800 score themselves is staggering and just obnoxious.

[Dracodraco]

Bullcrap, sure. All things are obsolete at this point of the expansion. Refering to the whole expansion by judging it by the last raid tier means incompetence.

They throw legendaries and AP at you, because it's endgame, there will be no more tiers in this expansion. No need to rush anymore to be able to clear hc/mythic in the 77 days timeframe. You have like 8 months to do Antorus.

There were almost no catch up mechanisms in 3/4 time of the expansion, when everything was current, and staying with the curve was real. You had to do everything on all of your alts (including profession questlines), pray for RNG Gods for good relics and legendaries... But you don't remember these things for sure, because you just re-subbed for the last raid tier.

I re subbed for the last raid tier? Are you fucking serious? I've killed every single boss at cutting edge level since I started playing during ICC. My subscription hasn't lapsed once, and yes, I have played *numerous* alts throughout EVERY. SINGLE. RAIDTIER - going as far as to run 10 man mythic/heroic alt raids on alts after 25 man progress finished, and at times raiding in multiple guilds just to get more mythic-time on my alt characters.


The only period of legion where alts were more "difficult" to keep up with or gear up, was during EN/TOV, where getting to 35 traits (and then 50+ in prep for nighthold) was a grind that basically kept you from playing any character but your main. Everything after that, alts have been just as demanding (if not less so, with the most recent patch) as in any other expansion. Fuck, you have *way* more options to gear up alts in Legion than you EVER did in Cata, MOP or WOD due to Mythic plus - if I wanted to get an alt up and raiding mythic SoO in MOP, I had to gear it up through flex/heroic and *previous* tier of raids first, because there was no other options; heroic dungeons didn't scale gear up nearly enough (and even when it occasionally did, you could only fill a handful of slots with that gear), and world quests/shard farming wasn't a thing. Now I can run 5 man dungeons, I can farm argunite for trinkets that'll last me well into heroic of the current tier, and I get a weekly *mythic quality* item on a character for 30 minutes of work (where I also have a shot at heroic-level loot, by the way).

And this has been the case through the entire expansion outside of EN/TOV, which Blizzard openly admitted went overboard (and, subsequently, changed so you didn't have to worry about your AP on alts due to AK scaling keeping you just a few levels behind a no-lifing main).

If you seriously think that alts have been harder to keep up this expansion than the previous, we might have been playing an entirely different game.

There's also the fact that historically, the last tier of an expansion was the hardest to catch up to exactly *because* we didn't have any decent catch-up mechanics except "run your weekly flex/lfr/normal runs and hope shit drops so you can do heroic/mythic as well" - you either relied on friends to carry your character till it was competent, you spent ages getting the gear the "normal" way, or you had to go back to old content to fill out gaps to let you attempt the current tier. How many people do you see raiding Tomb nowadays, outside of mythic raiders attempting to get their 2pc bonuses (which is an entirely different can of worms)?

Honestly, if you think me saying this expansion has been easy for alts compared to the previous is a sign of incompetence, all I can say is; How much effort do you actually put into your alts?


EDIT:
So I took a second to look you up. You have a mage that farmed EN a bunch, a little of TOV (only a single helya kill), then you rerolled to a warrior in NH, and entirely abandoned your mage - not a single raid kill since NH. Your warrior also *barely* has any kills of tomb/throne, with 6 full clears of each.

It's quite evident that you're projecting your own issues onto me; It's not *me* that quit for most of the expansion then returned for the last patch. It's *you*. You have the audacity to try and comment on how difficult it is to maintain a fucking alt while you haven't even had ONE for the entire expansion that you've even ATTEMPTED it on? What the fuck dude.

[Deleted]

Tbh, i don't like it. I'd enjoy it more if it was a paralel progression system like Fractals are in GW2. This would remove the need for external systems.

As it stands, mythic+ is only a raid support system.

[ydraw]

That would unfairly inflate scores for people who are shit. Why bother "risking" your score by doing some of the notoriously difficult ones? .

No it wouldn't, because the system still tells you whether they've done the dungeon you're planning on doing or not. If the person in question has done nothing but Upper Kara, and is applying for an Upper Kara key, then that's not "unfairly" inflating their score.

If they've done nothing but upper Kara but are applying for your Arcway key, well raider.io already tells you that information.

[Very Tired]

Not perfect, but I suppose it'll work given what they have to work with. People want a way to better their chances at separating the experienced from the not so experienced. Item level isn't near as good of a metric.

But I suppose I just say that because I'm a healer and I can get any group quickly with way lower stats than the DPS. It's not hard for me to get a bunch of runs to build my score up. I just have to put up with most of the pressure being put on me :/

[ydraw]

15's are a joke with current normal/heroic raid gear, and if you don't care about pushing high i honestly wouldn't even care about score.

You have to care though.

I mean if your score is under 1000 you basically have no chance at all of getting into a +15 pug. Which means you are stuck having to push your own key to 15 each week. Which means at least twice as many dungeon runs required for your chest (assuming you push your +14 on the first tr which is by no means guaranteed)

[Ozzyorcborne]

Still run them with a guild group, so i have yet to give 2 shits about my M+ score

[ydraw]

Still run them with a guild group, so i have yet to give 2 shits about my M+ score

Pugging addon has little effect on people who don't pug, more news at 11.

[Eapoe]

I'm not a huge fan, but I understand why it exists and the help it gives people forming groups.
The only reason I'm not a fan is that I do my max level one every week and then I'm done. That makes finding a group take some time, but doesn't mean I can't.

[Deleted]

M+scoring as OP and this thread serves only ONE purpose: e-peen... fuck it.

[ID811717]

Irrelevant and misleading metric for pugging mythic+. Useless as it stands for its main function and needs to be blown up and made from scratch by people who actually did Challenge Modes or at least pug regularly.

The hardcore EU M+ pugging community seems pretty satisfied with the current scoring system, judging by the discussions on high M+ pushing discord(s). This is not a claim that the scores are perfect in any way (everyone including myself can list many flaws), but no one has come up with anything better.

But raider.io admins have been extremely responsive to any feedback they get, and if you have great ideas I'm sure they will listen.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Do you consider 15 to be high? It seems like the majority of pugs believe that 2k+ is a minimum requirement to even be considered. I only do a 15 for the weekly as m+ doesn't interest me all that much, but if I have to pug it from time to time, I have a hard time being accepted despite being 971 ilvl. If I do end up having to pug, I just use my own key, then I don't have to worry about getting into a group, but that depends on the affixes and the dungeon.

Shouldn't the person making the group get to decide who to invite to their group? They don't get to tell you the requirements for your groups, you don't get to tell them the requirements for theirs. How could it be more fair?

- - - Updated - - -

My only issue with it is that it doesn't report your scores for your other characters. On my main and main alts, I have a damn high score. But the second I bring up an alt, they see my score if like 200 and think I haven't actually done anything. If they added an account score, I think that'd help a bit. Otherwise I see no problem with it. You can boost it the same way you boost ilvl (grinding) or just make friends and ask them to do a few with you

You can link your toons so it does show. My new bear alt is only 1000 or so, but anyone with addon looking at bear can see my main is 2450.

[MyndZero]

Blizzard should make it apart of the game, just like how arenas have a rating, M+ should also have a rating.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I hover around 3k so it doesn't really stop me from getting into groups and I honestly usually only run with guild members anyways. To put things straight I do a 15 for myself any if a guild member or friend outside the guild asks for me to give a hand I go. That is about it. But I can see it being pretty toxic if its used as an absolute and I am sure that it is more often than not. Using it as a benchmark is ok. But as an absolute.. yeah.. sure it sucks for people just trying to play the game.

[Deleted]

So I took a second to look you up. You have a mage that farmed EN a bunch, a little of TOV (only a single helya kill), then you rerolled to a warrior in NH, and entirely abandoned your mage - not a single raid kill since NH. Your warrior also *barely* has any kills of tomb/throne, with 6 full clears of each.

It's quite evident that you're projecting your own issues onto me; It's not *me* that quit for most of the expansion then returned for the last patch. It's *you*. You have the audacity to try and comment on how difficult it is to maintain a fucking alt while you haven't even had ONE for the entire expansion that you've even ATTEMPTED it on? What the fuck dude.

Then look more. I have curve for every raid (except NH) since SoO, basically the expansion where I started to play/play more seriously with my own acc. I don't have more time, neither commitment to do progress raiding, especially mythic. And yes, I project my own experience into my judgement, because I don't have more or less time to play the game over the years, but Legion completely killed the time for me to play any alts properly.

The thread is about M+ btw and I judge it also by my experience. With a pure dps class, and how garbage was/is my mage without appropriate legendaries (and before some tunings/rework), M+ was a nightmare, especially for a casual, that is not in the inner circle of the guild M+ team. So pugging as a tank is much better than as a dps. I also had better luck with my warrior regarding to legendaries, so f. this system.

This dipshit RNG, yet gamebreaking system completely killed the expansion for my mage (other mages, even new guys got the good legendaries around me over the raiding weeks and I felt really depressed because of it), so after a break, I came back to my warrior and said: f. this shit, Imma gonna be even more casul!!44.

I know, ppl like you have 26! hours a day to play this game and you could farm the shit out of it, but ppl like you were also stirred up when some of you found out that there is a limit for the amount of legendary drop. Some ppl did hundreds of M+ runs at that time, yet the drop stopped after 4 pieces, so if you were unlucky, you hardcore ppl got better by starting an other toon and farm with it as well, hoping for better luck.

The worst system in WoW's history, that took most of the time from ppl that just wanted to be with the curve. I remember the amount of posts about burnouts, and ppl having no time to do this or that. Simply, because the expansion was overwhelming for most players, and on top of it, only RNG controlled gamebreaking items that function as a second talent tree.

I'm glad it's over already and I really hope that we won't get anything like this in the future: RNG on top of RNG and the first half of the expansion was basically an open beta version.

[Wildpantz]

Since you can cheat the addon to get a good score i dont care i start my groups and check armory for higher keys. And no i wont say how use google.

[Dracodraco]

Then look more. I have curve for every raid (except NH) since SoO, basically the expansion where I started to play/play more seriously with my own acc. I don't have more time, neither commitment to do progress raiding, especially mythic. And yes, I project my own experience into my judgement, because I don't have more or less time to play the game over the years, but Legion completely killed the time for me to play any alts properly.

Look at what. You have 6 heroic clears out of 15 possible for the current content. You have 6 heroic clears out of the +30 possible for Tomb. You're not actually actively playing the game or even attempting to; You just sub for a month and a half and go on hiatus again. You weren't able to keep alts up to date like that in the past either.

The thread is about M+ btw and I judge it also by my experience. With a pure dps class, and how garbage was/is my mage without appropriate legendaries (and before some tunings/rework), M+ was a nightmare, especially for a casual, that is not in the inner circle of the guild M+ team. So pugging as a tank is much better than as a dps. I also had better luck with my warrior regarding to legendaries, so f. this system.

Sure it's about M+. Doesn't change that you made it about how bad it was for alts. When you spew bullshit, you get called on bullshit. It's that simple. As for legendaries etc, it was fixed by the time NH rolled around because by then you could do so many boss kills you'd get a legendary every other week easily, allowing people to farm the last 5-6 they'd be missing after EN+TOV. Pugging may have been easier as a tank - I have no knowledge of that - but that doesn't change that you made this about alts being hard to keep up to date, not about what was easiest to pug with.

This dipshit RNG, yet gamebreaking system completely killed the expansion for my mage (other mages, even new guys got the good legendaries around me over the raiding weeks and I felt really depressed because of it), so after a break, I came back to my warrior and said: f. this shit, Imma gonna be even more casul!!44.

Right, but your personal choice to become even more casual isn't a reflection of how difficult it is to keep alts up to date. That's a reflection of you not enjoying playing the game any more because you feel the RNG sucked the fun out of it.

I know, ppl like you have 26! hours a day to play this game and you could farm the shit out of it, but ppl like you were also stirred up when some of you found out that there is a limit for the amount of legendary drop. Some ppl did hundreds of M+ runs at that time, yet the drop stopped after 4 pieces, so if you were unlucky, you hardcore ppl got better by starting an other toon and farm with it as well, hoping for better luck.

Actually, I got a job at the start of legion and had to cut back immensely compared to when I was taking my degree . But obviously yea, people with 4 were pissed that the fifth wasn't dropping. What's this got to do with anything, or how difficult it was to maintain alts? Do you think people just stopped playing their main to play an alt after getting 4, when there was still AP to grind? Please.

The worst system in WoW's history, that took most of the time from ppl that just wanted to be with the curve. I remember the amount of posts about burnouts, and ppl having no time to do this or that. Simply, because the expansion was overwhelming for most players, and on top of it, only RNG controlled gamebreaking items that function as a second talent tree.

I'm glad it's over already and I really hope that we won't get anything like this in the future: RNG on top of RNG and the first half of the expansion was basically an open beta version.

There were *always* posts about burnouts. Every single expansion it's the same. This time it was due to an overload of content, previous expansions it was due to drought. They missed the mark with the first tier (EN->NH), but apart from giving us 1-2 months more in TOS instead of dragging Throne out for as long as they're going to, the rest of the expansion has been fairly well balanced between stuff to do and new content.


Any case; If you don't even bother trying to keep up to date on a single character, don't come here spouting nonsense that it's difficult to do. You have to atleast be trying to comment on something like that. Going "oh everything's terrible because I didn't get bis legendaries in EN!" when bis legendaries was something not even remotely required for the highest tier of raiding at that time and thus deducting the entire expansion sucks for catching up is, as you would put it, incompetent.

[Tyranader]

Where is the "don't use it as I do 99% of my runs with the guild"?

[Tradu]

Bullcrap, sure. All things are obsolete at this point of the expansion. Refering to the whole expansion by judging it by the last raid tier means incompetence.

They throw legendaries and AP at you, because it's endgame, there will be no more tiers in this expansion. No need to rush anymore to be able to clear hc/mythic in the 77 days timeframe. You have like 8 months to do Antorus.

There were almost no catch up mechanisms in 3/4 time of the expansion, when everything was current, and staying with the curve was real. You had to do everything on all of your alts (including profession questlines), pray for RNG Gods for good relics and legendaries... But you don't remember these things for sure, because you just re-subbed for the last raid tier.

Why? I did profession quests on maybe 2 characters, and my alts are doing just fine(and have been most of the expansion, because I play way too much)

- - - Updated - - -

M+scoring as OP and this thread serves only ONE purpose: e-peen... fuck it.

No, it serves the purpose of giving people information to base their invites on.