How do we feel these days about M+ scoring?

[Nuniqt]

I feel like the raider.io system has obvious pros and cons, of those the cons tend to attract lots more attention than the pros. Personally, when I found out about it it became more fun to push high keys for score rather than grab my 15 for the week and slide.

Ive seen it abused (imo) like others though where people will refuse to take someone because they have too low of a score but... they expect 2500 for a +6. Can they make their own group? Sure. Can i make my own if I feel its toxic? Also sure. It can be just another form of *normal antorus full clear, req ilvl 960* wtf?

[Charge me Doctor]

well, since the change to the top ladder i finally started getting into them (2 out of 10 runs recorded since then, much better than 0) i'm kinda fine with it, if only i could be arsed with actually doing all the keys, instead of running MoS, EoA and ARC all the time i would have much better score. But it still warms my heart that you finally can record your runs on heavily populated servers without tricking the system by inviting people from dead servers

[Tradu]

1 every 2 weeks still means over a year to get them all, which is a sigificant period of time waiting.

My Boomkin still doesn't have impeccable fel essence and I've been playing that toon on a casual basis since the beginning of the expansion. Because Druids have 4 specs and I got 2 resto and 3 tanking legendaries before I switched to moonkin. The expansion is over and I still don't have my spec's BIS legendary. Just think about that for a bit.

So the legendary system absolutely does impact on off specs despite what people who play 15 hours a day think.

The worse thing about legendaries is that they are just glyphs by another name, that you learn at random. This system added nothing to gameplay whatsoever. It just punished people who didn't have the time to spam run old raids and LFR to learn their glyphs.

People knew from the start this would be a problem. Blizzard promised a way to "target a specific legendary". That never happened.

I completely agree that the system is a problem, but you not having every legendary for even 1 spec is just a case of not playing efficiently at all. I have an average of 20 legendaries per character across 12 characters, most of those characters have less than 10 days /played at max level(most of them around 5). Play more efficiently if you want legendaries.

[ydraw]

Sounds more like back then you were trying to blame RNG for your inability to adequately perform up to par. You didn't need Mantle Of Command to parse in the 90s while nighthold was relevant. You're just making unnecessary excuses.

Yes, you actually did. If you didn't have the mantle you had zero hope of doing DPS competitive with people who did. That's a fact, and it's why the effect was later made baseline for the spec.

I mean I literally have logs that show I went from parsing 65% to 95% the week I got the mantle. You have zero idea what you're talking about, as usual.

[Deleted]

You can't even keep your main up to date because as you already stated, you've gone fully casual; It's fucking obvious you won't be able to keep an *alt* up to date either. You probably spend your time doing stuff you find "fun" instead of stuff that's efficient, but that's not relevant to the discussion; If you want to stand around and run in circles in dalaran rather than do emissaries or LFR, then yea, it's going to feel like it takes twice as long to get stuff compared to someone that doesn't mind playing the game.

You can't comprehend. I have reached my goal, so my main is up to date for me. Not up to date for your standards, I don't care about that.

It's the end of the expansion, you don't need to rush anymore, you don't need to do "efficient" activities over "fun" ones. But when progressing was real in this expansion and we were in the state of having only a few pieces of legendaries (and able to equip only 1), you can't ignore the fact that opening an emissary box could and did yield the same item that raidbosses did, was not fun at all, neither efficient.

Since you are revolving around my mage: I didn't have the head legendary for fire, so I was garbage in M+, compared to the ones that had. The time where content was current and doing M+ was even more relevant for progressing. Who needs a fire mage w/o head legendary, when you have plenty other with it (and frost was also utterly broken at that time). This called gamebreaking.

You were the one saying this expansion was terrible for alts and going on about how hard they were to keep up to date. I'm just here to tell you that you're wrong, just because you can't be bothered to even try does not make you correct.

I can't be bothered, because I didn't have the time for them. Doing the same daily chore every day, doing the same WQ-s again with all toons... Who the hell needs that? It's not fun at all. I play for fun, and Legion has the most amount of repetitve content ever. Before that, you just leveled up your alt and the only catch up mechanism was a single questline for end content, but after that you could literally jump into raiding, starting with some lfr/flex and in a few resets, you could progress to higher difficulties. But after doing your raid, you could put down your alt until your next run.

When Legion was current, you had all the little acitvities, grinding AP on all toons, and you can never really catch up with your alts, because of TF and artifact relic system. And before your alt, you should also invest some time into your offspec as well (AP grind again and RNG relics, along with leggos for each spec).

Now you have some catch up mechanisms, but now the content is not relevant, so it has no point to have one.

I never said you had to clear everything to farm legendaries, or spam M+. That's your own stupid assumption. I will repeat: You will get an average of 1 legendary per reset if you spend about four hours on a character doing useful stuff like current-content raids, emissary caches and a single M+ for your weekly box.

Yet my mage is prime example fo being unlucky in 2 whole raid contents, where everyone around me got their appropriate legendaries, even from emissary box, and I didn't. I couldn't find the fun part in this, so I couldn't continue playing frustrated on each day.

Except you did. Artifact power was literally what you are describing - your invested time returned AP tokens which returned artifact levels, which returned direct power upgrades that were obtainable to you at a consistent rate, with ZERO RNG involved. Only the people you seem to think play 26 hours a day would have ever reached max level, as well, so it's not like you ever hit the level cap for your weapon, making that entire point stupid as fuck - you ALWAYS had something to work towards.

AP was and illusion. After you unlocked your golden traits, everything else was just a flat damage increase and had minor impact. Legendaries were the real deal and they were behind RNG.

So? You didn't need "the right ones". The difference between "the right ones" and "subpar" ones after the rebalancing around the start of nighthold (when jewellery got sockets, lots of items got a third stat etc) is in the 1-3% department. If glue eater timmy was beating you because he had the 2x BiS legendaries and you were stuck with prydaz and sephuz, chances are he wasn't as big of a glue eater as you thought, because realistically you should still be able to beat him if you're a far better player.

The example is because glue eater Timmy didn't even raid or progress raid (sometimes disappeared for weeks), yet having BiS item in his bag, and this adds zero effect to raid power. While true progressers that attended on each run, could have added more to the raid power if the gamebreaking items could have been bought via a token system.

Also, 2 players from the same spec with the same skill level also felt the difference between having and not having BiS leggo. You can't ignore this fact. 2 completely identical cars will perform differently with different types of fuel. And you can't call this competition, because one was given a better toolkit to start with, than the other on the same level.

These 2 espects make the legendary system a joke.

Hello IT - have you tried turning it off and on again?

This explains a lot.

You can play as little as 30 minutes a day with a 1 hour marathon session on the weekend, and your alt is going to be in fighting shape, and that has been the way it's been since nighthold. If you are going to tell me to my face that alts were hard to keep up to date when THAT little effort is required, you're going to have to elaborate on how the fuck that works.

Except, now there is no point to play alts at this state of the expansion. It's not fun anymore, neither efficient. It's obsolete.

As for best legendaries helping progress? 'Course they did. But Method didn't have BiS legendaries on all characters for their EN and TOV world firsts. Fuck, they didn't even in *nighthold* - and anything after that, when the chances were increased, has been smooth sailing for anyone bothering to keep their character up to date with a few hours of effort a week.

Saying that best legendaries helped a lot during progress just shows what kind of mindset you have - the legendaries were never a big enough problem that people weren't taken to a boss because they had the wrong ones; They were not taken because they didn't play well enough compared to the other available options. Did it help if your entire raid had full BiS legendaries? Of course it did. But no guild actually *had* that for the first tier which makes it a pointless argument; Everyone was in the same boat, and by the time tomb came around, having all legendaries for your main spec was pretty much a given.

So, elitist again and can only think in world first and mythic raiding as real content. Pretty narrow-minded in this case.

PvE brought M+ to the picture, and having or not having BiS legendaries, when you had limited access to them, was gamebreaking indeed and meant a lot, if you wanted to push some higher keys for more than 1 chest.

[ydraw]

So what are you complaining about, @ydraw? That you didn't get boomkin BiS after playing BM and other druid specs? The more you write the less sense it makes but brings more salt to the surface.

I'm complaining about the time needed to play a character simply to change specs. Yes I could spend 6 hours a week grinding out legendaries for my off spec, but why should anyone have to do that? It's a spec I only play when needed. In previous expansions the only thing I'd have to worry about is maybe keeping a set of gear with slightly different stats in my bag.

In legion we had to grind AP and legendaries to be able play the spec competitively. It was a terrible design and anyone who enjoys playing multiple specs will tell you that. Druids were especially hard hit with 4 specs to grind AP and leggos for.

[Deleted]

Yes, you actually did. If you didn't have the mantle you had zero hope of doing DPS competitive with people who did. That's a fact, and it's why the effect was later made baseline for the spec.

That sounds more like a skill issue. I've never seen a competent BM blame lack of having the mantle for inadequate damage output.

[ydraw]

That sounds more like a skill issue. I've never seen a competent BM blame lack of having the mantle for inadequate damage output.

Then you weren't playing in Nighthold, end of story.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753187163

[Tradu]

You can't comprehend. I have reached my goal, so my main is up to date for me. Not up to date for your standards, I don't care about that.

It's the end of the expansion, you don't need to rush anymore, you don't need to do "efficient" activities over "fun" ones. But when progressing was real in this expansion and we were in the state of having only a few pieces of legendaries (and able to equip only 1), you can't ignore the fact that opening an emissary box could and did yield the same item that raidbosses did, was not fun at all, neither efficient.

There was no relevant point in the expansion where you could only equip 1.

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AP was and illusion. After you unlocked your golden traits, everything else was just a flat damage increase and had minor impact. Legendaries were the real deal and they were behind RNG.

The initial paragon traits were much more impactful than legendaries for most specs(Havoc and Fire being 2 outliers I can think of)

[Deleted]

Then you weren't playing in Nighthold, end of story.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753187163

I raided while content was relevant this entire expansion. All I see in that thread is mediocre players giving excuses to why they aren't performing viable damage.

[Tradu]

I'm complaining about the time needed to play a character simply to change specs. Yes I could spend 6 hours a week grinding out legendaries for my off spec, but why should anyone have to do that? It's a spec I only play when needed. In previous expansions the only thing I'd have to worry about is maybe keeping a set of gear with slightly different stats in my bag.

In legion we had to grind AP and legendaries to be able play the spec competitively. It was a terrible design and anyone who enjoys playing multiple specs will tell you that. Druids were especially hard hit with 4 specs to grind AP and leggos for.

I agree that the offspec gating was a bit silly, legendaries should just switch based on spec, but 6 hours a week is nothing.

[Deleted]

Incoming wall of text below. BRACE YOURSELF!

Before I start this I'll just say that i have no idea what "Raider.IO" is. To me it sounds like something connected with raiding, not m+ success rate.
I have stopped carrying about this "score" mid NH progression as I started to do only the weekly chest run and rarely pug it. As far as i remember, that system was giving you set amount points only for your highest completed key for each dungeon in WoWProgress that is(Wild guess - its same on Raider.io?)
To me this felt like super biased scoring system.

For example I'll use myself - currently my Frost Dk is 973 ilvl. My logic for how one can get 970+ ilvl nowdays is that you are either mythic raider or extremely lucky with titanforging in M+. From my experience, with my recent pugging I did, in 90% of the cases is the former, aka person with more than half brain
So the only reason I could have to decline such person is either I already have 3 dps slots full or I want to make specific setup to have specific tools to use in sone specific pull etc.
But if I try to get in PuG group myself, instead of making one, I get declines always. Why? My wild guess is I have low score on some website. All those mythic bosses kills mean nothing.

A fair score, as I see it myself, should be based on personal performance rather than just one simple "You beat the timer! Gz! Here are your points!"
Currently I play another game, beside WoW, that have multiple trackers - efficiency rating, most damage done, numbers of successful dungeon completes, number of personal kills in that dungeon, scoring based on how much stuff you killed in given dungeon, how much stuff you killed in any of the available specs for the class you play... heck even your individual weapons have tracker how many stuff you killed with that same weapon...
You have so much information that can help you to distinguish good player with just looking at their "armory" than just that lazy scoring that is currently used for m+.

TL;DR - Just one stat to base your scoring system is laughable and anyone who trust such scoring system should not be taken seriously!
If anyone is gonna try to give any kind of rating or score regarding PvE and/or PVP they need to include more stats, or even better said as much as possible stats, so that rating/score will be more adequate in assessing any given player.

[Tradu]

Incoming wall of text below. BRACE YOURSELF!

Before I start this I'll just say that i have no idea what "Raider.IO" is. To me it sounds like something connected with raiding, not m+ success rate.
I have stopped carrying about this "score" mid NH progression as I started to do only the weekly chest run and rarely pug it. As far as i remember, that system was giving you set amount points only for your highest completed key for each dungeon in WoWProgress that is(Wild guess - its same on Raider.io?)
To me this felt like super biased scoring system.

For example I'll use myself - currently my Frost Dk is 973 ilvl. My logic for how one can get 970+ ilvl nowdays is that you are either mythic raider or extremely lucky with titanforging in M+. From my experience, with my recent pugging I did, in 90% of the cases is the former, aka person with more than half brain
So the only reason I could have to decline such person is either I already have 3 dps slots full or I want to make specific setup to have specific tools to use in sone specific pull etc.
But if I try to get in PuG group myself, instead of making one, I get declines always. Why? My wild guess is I have low score on some website. All those mythic bosses kills mean nothing.

A fair score, as I see it myself, should be based on personal performance rather than just one simple "You beat the timer! Gz! Here are your points!"
Currently I play another game, beside WoW, that have multiple trackers - efficiency rating, most damage done, numbers of successful dungeon completes, number of personal kills in that dungeon, scoring based on how much stuff you killed in given dungeon, how much stuff you killed in any of the available specs for the class you play... heck even your individual weapons have tracker how many stuff you killed with that same weapon...
You have so much information that can help you to distinguish good player with just looking at their "armory" than just that lazy scoring that is currently used for m+.

TL;DR - Just one stat to base your scoring system is laughable and anyone who trust such scoring system should not be taken seriously!
If anyone is gonna try to give any kind of rating or score regarding PvE and/or PVP they need to include more stats, or even better said as much as possible stats, so that rating/score will be more adequate in assessing any given player.

Raider.io(and wowprogress, although I'm not sure because nobody uses their system anymore) scores based on the key level and the time, so for example 3chesting a +15 is better than depleting the shit out of a +16. It's not meant to be the be all end all system either, it's a scoring system for experience, nothing more. There's logs(although barely anybody logs M+) for more performance oriented "scoring".

[ydraw]

I raided while content was relevant this entire expansion. All I see in that thread is mediocre players giving excuses to why they aren't performing viable damage.

You aren't smart enough to know who is or isn't a mediocre player.

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Raider.io(and wowprogress, although I'm not sure because nobody uses their system anymore) scores based on the key level and the time, so for example 3chesting a +15 is better than depleting the shit out of a +16. It's not meant to be the be all end all system either, it's a scoring system for experience, nothing more.

Come on, it's a lot more.

It's massive epeen measuring stick and that's why guys with high scores love it. You'll never see a discussion on the subject go for more than a page without some hero calling anyone with a low score terribad drooling shitters. This despite the fact that the major reason for low scores is simply being selective with dungeons.

[Deleted]

You'll never see a discussion on the subject go for more than a page without some hero calling anyone with a low score terribad drooling shitters.

Quotes from this thread or just personal salt?

[Tr1n1ty]

Incoming wall of text below. BRACE YOURSELF!

Before I start this I'll just say that i have no idea what "Raider.IO" is. To me it sounds like something connected with raiding, not m+ success rate.
I have stopped carrying about this "score" mid NH progression as I started to do only the weekly chest run and rarely pug it. As far as i remember, that system was giving you set amount points only for your highest completed key for each dungeon in WoWProgress that is(Wild guess - its same on Raider.io?)
To me this felt like super biased scoring system.

For example I'll use myself - currently my Frost Dk is 973 ilvl. My logic for how one can get 970+ ilvl nowdays is that you are either mythic raider or extremely lucky with titanforging in M+. From my experience, with my recent pugging I did, in 90% of the cases is the former, aka person with more than half brain
So the only reason I could have to decline such person is either I already have 3 dps slots full or I want to make specific setup to have specific tools to use in sone specific pull etc.
But if I try to get in PuG group myself, instead of making one, I get declines always. Why? My wild guess is I have low score on some website. All those mythic bosses kills mean nothing.

A fair score, as I see it myself, should be based on personal performance rather than just one simple "You beat the timer! Gz! Here are your points!"
Currently I play another game, beside WoW, that have multiple trackers - efficiency rating, most damage done, numbers of successful dungeon completes, number of personal kills in that dungeon, scoring based on how much stuff you killed in given dungeon, how much stuff you killed in any of the available specs for the class you play... heck even your individual weapons have tracker how many stuff you killed with that same weapon...
You have so much information that can help you to distinguish good player with just looking at their "armory" than just that lazy scoring that is currently used for m+.

TL;DR - Just one stat to base your scoring system is laughable and anyone who trust such scoring system should not be taken seriously!
If anyone is gonna try to give any kind of rating or score regarding PvE and/or PVP they need to include more stats, or even better said as much as possible stats, so that rating/score will be more adequate in assessing any given player.

Nobodody in M+ gives a shit how many Mythic bosses you have killed, you can kill Argus Mythic and still don't know how the trash in a +16 works, miss a kick during Raging and someone dies because of that...

[Deleted]

You aren't smart enough to know who is or isn't a mediocre player.

I have numerous degrees, specifically in statistics and mathematics so I think I'm a little more knowledgeable when it comes to numbers but please, continue to tell me how you couldn't do adequate damage without mantle.

[Millyraynge]

competition keeps the stuff attractive. Without proper working ranking systems no one would care about pushing m+ keys. Its the same effect like in all the other sportive competitions. Just look at football. Not the premier league, but the very bottom league. Even on that level people care about their rankings in the lowest bracket.

[gioderpington]

Shouldn't the person making the group get to decide who to invite to their group? They don't get to tell you the requirements for your groups, you don't get to tell them the requirements for theirs. How could it be more fair?

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You can link your toons so it does show. My new bear alt is only 1000 or so, but anyone with addon looking at bear can see my main is 2450.

Thanks! I'll have to actually download the app...

[ydraw]

Quotes from this thread or just personal salt?

This thread (paraphrased), and hundreds of others like it.

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I have numerous degrees, specifically in statistics and mathematics.

I bet your apartment smells of rich mahogany