If Sylvanas dies so does the Horde

[Al Gorefiend]

only if her two inferior sisters join her in the WoW version of Hell.

New Allied Race: Hell Elves.

[Combatbutler]

By a wrong time i can only assume you meant "too late".
But yes - Saurfang as a warchief is something a Horde badly need. Also, eradication of any undead on any continent or planet, but that would not happen.

I wholeheartedly disagree, Saurfang is a good general even though his honor hinders him there as well, as a leader it would be a flat out no go. Global politics are dirty and his decisions will affect every last one of the horde members and sometimes it is neceassary to make a decision that tramples on ones personal values, to ensure the best for those you are responsible for.

Sylvanas for example is too pragmatic and cold and lacks honor entirely, a combination of Saurfang and Sylvanas would make a good leader.

[Friendlyimmolation]

New Allied Race: Hell Elves.

Fuck you can never escape it. "I DOUBLE sacrificed everything."

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I wholeheartedly disagree, Saurfang is a good general even though his honor hinders him there as well, as a leader it would be a flat out no go. Global politics are dirty and his decisions will affect every last one of the horde members and sometimes it is neceassary to make a decision that tramples on ones personal values, to ensure the best for those you are responsible for.

Sylvanas for example is too pragmatic and cold and lacks honor entirely, a combination of Saurfang and Sylvanas would make a good leader.

Sylvanas possessing Saurfang's body?

[Stooned]

New Allied Race: Hell Elves.

I said this about an earlier post, but can you please delete this. Blizzard will surely introduce this when they bring the Legion back as an allied demon race.

[Combatbutler]

Sylvanas possessing Saurfang's body?

Make Baine a little bitter, colder and done. Tauren get spotlight in what has been ages and a core horde race is again holding the reigns, even though I have my doubts Blizz would ever go in that direction.

[Martymark]

No you won't.

You haven't been playing a Forsaken since Vanilla.

[ello]

Amazing how Saurfang go to persona non grata when he decided to say FU to sylv.

Well, recent datamined dialogue kinda proves @Combatbulter right.

This appears to be a conversation between Anduin and Saurfang, who is later imprisoned in Stormwind.
[quote[Stand aside, Saurfang. This war is not yours to bear alone, and there is no honor in killing you.
How dare you lecture me, boy? You know nothing of honor.
I will NEVER stand down! I eat, sleep, and die by the sword. What price have you paid for your people?
My father gave everything for the Alliance. The question is, are you willing to do the same?

More and more it seems like the "Saurfang has a deathwish" theory is actually true.

Make Baine a little bitter, colder and done. Tauren get spotlight in what has been ages and a core horde race is again holding the reigns, even though I have my doubts Blizz would ever go in that direction.

Idk man, if the slaughter of Taurajo wasn't enough to push him even a little bit out of his noble hero archetype I don't think anything will.

too focus on honor, that sounds perfect, the state of people, the horde needs to go back to its roots of thrall and the ideals of doomhammer.

It's kinda funny that you mention Doomhammer. The guy set entire forests ablaze, started a war of conquest, butchered and tortured innocents, enslaved and forcebred red dragons and even practiced necromancy. The guy reached a level of ruthless Sylvanas could only dream of.

It's interesting that the definition of "honor" seems to change depending on who you're talking about.

[Zulkhan]

Alliance player might hate Sylvanas more than Garrosh, but then the main reason is not Garrosh has more honor (he does not, to be honest), it is because Sylvanas actually kicked Alliance's butt more effectively than Garrosh.

Not to mention Garrosh at the same time "paid" for whatever harm he did to the Alliance while also harming the Horde in the process, making him more "likeable" in a twisted sort of way. I've seen countless of steadily Alliance-aligned posters actively defending Garrosh while attacking the Horde he turned against himself.

By a wrong time i can only assume you meant "too late".
But yes - Saurfang as a warchief is something a Horde badly need. Also, eradication of any undead on any continent or planet, but that would not happen.

I would honestly accept that, as long I can eradicate every living Night Elf the same way.

Good, Let's hurry up and kill her, The Horde is full of self rightous obnoxious pricks anyway.

The most notable self righteous obnoxious prick I can think about is Tyrande and she's not really Horde.

Make Baine a little bitter, colder and done. Tauren get spotlight in what has been ages and a core horde race is again holding the reigns, even though I have my doubts Blizz would ever go in that direction.

I found somewhat interesting how Baine apparently brought Grimtotem with him, at the siege of Lordaeron, serving as Blight Spreaders along Forsaken and Goblins.

[VincentWolf]

Sylvanas is long since nothing but a rabid bitch that needs to be put down. There's nothing cool or great about here anymore, not in a very long time. I can't wait for her to become a boss or just die in some cinematic.

[Katie45]

Well, recent datamined dialogue kinda proves @Combatbulter right.



More and more it seems like the "Saurfang has a deathwish" theory is actually true.



Idk man, if the slaughter of Taurajo wasn't enough to push him even a little bit out of his noble hero archetype I don't think anything will.



It's kinda funny that you mention Doomhammer. The guy set entire forests ablaze, started a war of conquest, butchered and tortured innocents, enslaved and forcebred red dragons and even practiced necromancy. The guy reached a level of ruthless Sylvanas could only dream of.

It's interesting that the definition of "honor" seems to change depending on who you're talking about.

talking about later doomhammer, good characters actually grow as people as the story goes on, wow has a few of those you know

[Syegfryed]

More and more it seems like the "Saurfang has a deathwish" theory is actually true.

so does all orcs, come on, everyone is like that, "my life for the horde" mean something for you? we need to stop shitting on him because of this

It's kinda funny that you mention Doomhammer. The guy set entire forests ablaze, started a war of conquest, butchered and tortured innocents, enslaved and forcebred red dragons and even practiced necromancy. The guy reached a level of ruthless Sylvanas could only dream of.

It's interesting that the definition of "honor" seems to change depending on who you're talking about.

he didn't start the war though, he just assume what was going on, the shit and damage were already done, he just try to win.

he was pragmatic, he did what should be done to win, but he was not "evil" or honourless.

He didn't practice necromancy, but allowed to win, he didn't enslaved and forcebreed red dragons, Nekros and Zuluhead did (he prob think of dragons the same of wolfs and rylaks just beasts)

And i don't think i member him butchering and torturing innocents, this was blackhand.

for me the main difference between orgrin and sylvanas are the reasons, the altruism, and how Orgrin would give his life for their people and the horde as whole

[Magnagarde]

New Allied Race: Hell Elves.

Blizzard accent HIRED!

so does all orcs, come on, everyone is like that, "my lie for the horde" mean something for you? we need to stop shiting on him because of this

Sylvanas is right about one thing when it comes to the Horde and that is what she says in the trailer of BfA. The Horde has truly forgotten what makes it strong.

An orc willing to give his life for the Horde in a courageous way is now considered a fool.

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so does all orcs, come on, everyone is like that, "my lie for the horde" mean something for you? we need to stop shiting on him because of this



he didn't start the war though, he just assume what was going on, the shit and damage were already done, he just try to win.

he was pragmatic, he did what should be done to win, but he was not "evil" or honourless.

He didn't practice, necromancy, but allowed to win, he didn't enslaved and forcebreed red dragons, Nekros and Zuluhead did (they prob think of dragons the same of wolfs and rylaks just beasts)

And i don't think member of him butchering and torturing innocents, this was blackhand.

for me the main difference bettewn orgrin and sylvanas is the reasons, the altruism, and how Orgrin would give his life for their people.

Well, Orgrim Doomhammer made ample use of all the bad things all of the named clans did. To say he isn't guilty of it isn't right because he condoned it afterall, but the better question to ask is why any Horde player would be bothered by Orgrim being guilty of this? He had a whole clan dedicated to enslaving red dragons, which is ultimately a bad thing to do, but it was a great boon for the Horde. This is what the Horde was about and it was way better if they either stuck to that kind of Horde(take things by force) or Thrall's Horde(a more noble version, yet still completely disconnected from the previous one). Now it's neither of those.

[Syegfryed]

Sylvanas is right about one thing when it comes to the Horde and that is what she says in the trailer of BfA. The Horde has truly forgotten what makes it strong.

An orc willing to give his life for the Horde in a courageous way is now considered a fool.

*clear throat*

Times changes

too bad it changed for bad.

Well, Orgrim Doomhammer made ample use of all the bad things all of the named clans did. To say he isn't guilty of it isn't right because he condoned it afterall, but the better question to ask is why any Horde player would be bothered by Orgrim being guilty of this? He had a whole clan dedicated to enslaving red dragons, which is ultimately a bad thing to do, but it was a great boon for the Horde. This is what the Horde was about and it was way better if they either stuck to that kind of Horde(take things by force) or Thrall's Horde(a more noble version, yet still completely disconnected from the previous one). Now it's neither of those.

i don't deny the shit he did, but like i said, he did because he need to, their world was destroyed, the horde was falling apart, the only option was fight for a place or surrender and die.

He didn't nothing bad for the horde, and that is ok for me, the only thing "generally bad" is allowed the enslave of dragons, but like i said, most of the horde, prob think they were just beasts like wolves

[ello]

so does all orcs, come on, everyone is like that, "my life for the horde" mean something for you? we need to stop shitting on him because of this

I'm not shitting on him. I think Saurfang is a good character and i understand why he is so morally rigid given his history. I'm just saying that Combatbulter's assessment is accurate so his argument has weight.

I would also hope that not all Orcs are like Saurfang. One of the reasons I like this race is because it's diverse and has multiple viewpoints (e.g. the Warsong clan is different from the Frostwolf clan, Garrosh is different from Thrall etc)

he didn't start the war though, he just assume what was going on, the shit and damage were already done, he just try to win.

He did. I believe Chronicles said he started the war because he didn't believe there would be lasting peace with the Humans or something.

he was pragmatic, he did what should be done to win, but he was not "evil"

Sure, I never meant to suggest otherwise. I actually love Doomhammer as a character.

I'm just saying the definition of "honor" is a matter of perspective and different cultures/individuals have different notions of honor based on their history. For some people it's "do whatever it takes to safeguard you and your people"(e.g. Doomhammer , Sylvanas) and for other's it's more about how you win and maintaining moral survival(e.g. Thrall, Saurfang)

Personally, I think "honor" is a meaningless buzzword.

He didn't practice necromancy, but allowed to win, he didn't enslaved and forcebreed red dragons, Nekros and Zuluhead did (he prob think of dragons the same of wolfs and rylaks just beasts)

Splitting hairs here.

And i don't think i member him butchering and torturing innocents, this was blackhand.

He did. There are scenes in Tides of Darkness of his men torturing people in Stormwind, that hasn't been retconned to my knowledge.

He also tortured Garona for information.

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I found somewhat interesting how Baine apparently brought Grimtotem with him, at the siege of Lordaeron, serving as Blight Spreaders along Forsaken and Goblins.

Is it confirmed that those are Grimtotem? I hope Jevan shows up. That guy is cool.

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talking about later doomhammer, good characters actually grow as people as the story goes on, wow has a few of those you know

How did Doomhammer grow to become more honorable?

[Dartz1979]

If they kill off sylvanas wont be worth playing the horde no more there is no more female waifus left on horde lore yes horde gets all the good mounts and race perks and do very good at pvp but lack the hot lady leaders department :=)

[Friendlyimmolation]

If they kill off sylvanas wont be worth playing the horde no more there is no more female waifus left on horde lore yes horde gets all the good mounts and race perks and do very good at pvp but lack the hot lady leaders department :=)

Of all the waifus you choose a corpse.

[Deleted]

I just want you to think about how many racial leaders we've lost so far:

(1) Thrall began being shit when he left the Horde and began his 'spiritual awakening' or whatever it was he was on about, his character became worse and worse until he eventually cheated in Mak'gora and gave his iconic weapon to a random shaman 'champion' that as far as we know could've been alliance (think Varian's sword going to any warrior instead of Anduin)

(2) Cairne Bloodhoof died at the hands of Garrosh who had his weapon poisoned by accident

(3)Garrosh, who's only real mistake (albeit an unforgivable one) was being racist towards the other Horde members, was eventually ousted by the Horde and Alliance then killed by Thrall

(4) Vol'jin got stabbed by some random demon then died

Also, from the comics (Son of the Wolf, released in Legion), we know that Anduin will live to be an old man and that he will be the de-facto leader against the void, whether this is by Horde submission or willing compliance remains to be seen.

My point is that if the Horde loses another faction leader, especially one that has played such an important role in WoW since Warcraft 3, then nothing is sacred anymore. Love her or hate her Sylvanas represents our last bastion of Horde identity as a collective faction under one main leader, otherwise Bliz will be able to put any random npc pleb on the Warcheif merry go-round (who knows might even be the player one day).

naah, since the old go... good... ehm since the old times Horde leaders fell like autumn's leaves, and the Horde is still here :P

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Mmmh...
1. I agree that Thrall messed everything up. For the longest time, a lot of people were angry at him because he went full "lol ur fault" on Garrosh after being the one to put him in charge, and then he even cheated in that sacred duel. Glad the elements left him for that.

2. Cairne was the only reason I respected tauren. I am 100% Alliance but I always found him to be like a beacon of courage and strength, all the way from Warcraft 3. Then Magatha happened. She was the one to poison Garrosh's axe, and not only she is still alive and not impaled on a pike, she is a follower for shamans! And guess what, I have a tauren shaman! My leader was killed by this utter failure and I have to keep her around camp. Totally lost all interest in the whole race for that.

3. Garrosh was cool. He had ideas and plans. He did something. Not the right things, but at least he tried.

4. Vol'jin was the exact opposite. He didn't do anything and then died.

That is all to say, yes, you only have Sylvanas left. But having her doesn't seem like a good thing. The best thing for the horde right now would be keeping her around while new characters are developed to carry the Horde forward.

Of course, I still have hope for you; at least, until Blizzard decides that AU Grom "lol i drank deomn blod my dps is huge" Hellscream should become the new warchief. Then I'd probably pretend the Horde doesn't exist anymore...

Well give Thrall a break, literally nobody did for the Horde what he has, and i mean even without counting everything he did from the very start of WoW xD and besides, as a Alliance player, i must say that questing a bit with a horde alt in the cataclysm questlines, i actually found that Garrosh was, with many reserves, growing into being less idiotically brawly and, while having war ideas, was becoming a decent leader or at least a honorable general able to limit himself, not accepting every cost to beat the Alliance. Then practically blizzard flattened him to a axe-crazy (fitting for a Orc xD) imbecile in MoP :| So, i still think Thrall misjudged, but when he gave him the lead there was some realistic hope to see Garry becoming an at least decent leader, instead of a orc supremacist jerk :|

About Vol'jin, sad to say but you are right. But Baine is in even worse situation, they forget him for 90% of time xD They should have built him better to be a good heir for the father: at least now we would have a good new option for a warchief, as Cairne, the probably best option himself... well you know it xO sigh, to die that way...
MAYBE Baine IS a good and charismatic leader, but how can we heroes know it if he does nothing but giving a speech during a booze session? :|

Also, yes, i saw it too, why Magatha is free to go around and not like in a jail, or nailed to a tree Conan-style? :S

[Syegfryed]

I'm not shitting on him. I think Saurfang is a good character and i understand why he is so morally rigid given his history. I'm just saying that Combatbulter's assessment is accurate so his argument has weight.

I would also hope that not all Orcs are like Saurfang. One of the reasons I like this race is because it's diverse and has multiple viewpoints (e.g. the Warsong clan is different from the Frostwolf clan, Garrosh is different from Thrall etc)

saying he is all suicidal and how he have deathwish is shit on him...

And yes all orcs are like suarfang in this subject, of honor and how they would give their lives for the horde

He did. I believe Chronicles said he started the war because he didn't believe there would be lasting peace with the Humans or something.

how you start a war who was still going on? the alliance would not let the horde be, he just kill blackhand and continue the war on his own, in his ways

I'm just saying the definition of "honor" is a matter of perspective and different cultures/individuals have different notions of honor based on their history. For some people it's "do whatever it takes to safeguard you and your people"(e.g. Doomhammer , Sylvanas) and for other's it's more about how you win and maintaining moral survival(e.g. Thrall, Saurfang)

thats why he is honorable, for the horde, not for the alliance

Splitting hairs here.

im sory?

He did. There are scenes in Tides of Darkness of his men torturing people in Stormwind, that hasn't been retconned to my knowledge.

if i it was in stormwind was under blackhand/guldan command no? btw "his men" is not "him" even turalion tortured orcs.

He also tortured Garona for information.

not that bad

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If they kill off sylvanas wont be worth playing the horde no more there is no more female waifus left on horde lore yes horde gets all the good mounts and race perks and do very good at pvp but lack the hot lady leaders department :=)

people like you who make me want her death LUL

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

That is all to say, yes, you only have Sylvanas left. But having her doesn't seem like a good thing. The best thing for the horde right now would be keeping her around while new characters are developed to carry the Horde forward.

I absolutely agree that Horde needs better writing and development for their leaders. Blizz has shown they can write good characters (Occuleth, Thalyssra, Khadgar back in WoD before he got over-exposed in Legion...), but their writing for Horde leaders has been atrocious since Cataclysm. They can do better. They should do better.

[ello]

saying he is all suicidal and how he have deathwish is shit on him...

And yes all orcs are like suarfang in this subject, of honor and how they would give their lives for the horde

I'll wait for more context before I make a final judgment. Initial impression is that is trying to die a fairly pointless death, but there is context to be seen.

how you start a war who was still going on? the alliance would not let the horde be, he just kill blackhand and continue the war on his own, in his ways

The First War was over when he took command though. He was the one who decided to resume hostilities(not saying he was right or wrong).

im sory?

You were arguing about trivial details. Sure, Doomhammer didn't practice necromancy himself, he ordered his death knights to do it for him. Doesn't really change anything.

btw "his men" is not "him" even turalion tortured orcs.

see above

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people like you who make me want her death LUL

pretty sure he is just trolling tbh