Sylvanas' Genocide of the Night Elves

[Syegfryed]

Your answers sire. In bold Blue as looking at this color may or may not be triggering for you.

There is no Wotlk-MoP war. In Wotlk Thrall was Warchief and Jaina was peaceful. The war started in Cata, when Garrosh became Warchief and initialized it by invading Ashenvale and Stonetalon on one end and Hillsbrad and Gilneas on the other.

what about Varian open declaring war in undercity and tried to kill thrall? LUL

the war didn't start in cata,and wasn't Garrosh who started;

[Deleted]

what about Varian open declaring war in undercity and tried to kill thrall? LUL

the war didn't start in cata,and wasn't Garrosh who started;

Considering what Varian, then the hothead he was, saw in Undercity? I'd understand him attacking orcs collaborating with undead. It was Sylvanas who enabled all events prior and leading to the wrathgate incident to happen.

A declaration of war usually turns in open hostilities, once Varian was ported back to SW and was allowed to chill, hostilities did not resume. We have Jaina to thank for that.

[Mehrunes]

The horde with Sylvanas at the helm (proven in using the blight) mining something that can be felt as a huge source of power by merely touching it, next to a gigantic sword that tore a hole in the world. Even the most idiotic alliance commander will know what is happening. You underestimate them a lot.

Their prejudices isn't proof or evidence, let alone justification. Do you think Troll commander in Ashran was justified?

Saying does not equal doing. There is intent, yet that was not what happened.

Yeah, he only declared war and didn't follow through with his desire to kill the Horde forces there and capture Undercity because Jaina teleported him the fuck out.

There is no Wotlk-MoP war. In Wotlk Thrall was Warchief and Jaina was peaceful. The war started in Cata, when Garrosh became Warchief and initialized it by invading Ashenvale and Stonetalon on one end and Hillsbrad and Gilneas on the other.

Except the Shattering talks about the factions having a truce and working towards peace. You can't have a truce and peace without war. This isn't rocket science. Why the fuck are you still unable to grasp it?

And by "active" you mean "Killing all living humans in the nearby areas, who were also residents of lordaeron, and raising them" and "Not present at all in the Western Plaguelands up until that point". Had the alliance had any offensive intent, they would have brought an army, not farmers.

Except they didn't even have means to raise them before Cata. Nor were they killing all humans before them. Chronology hard. And Bulwark is still on WPL border. And was sending forces to operate in WPL all the time. And apparently this is typical Alliance farming gear: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=44450/and...orce-commander And even those farmers formed a militia and attacked the Forsaken, breaking the truce Thassarian made with Koltira.

[Syegfryed]

Considering what Varian, then the hothead he was, saw in Undercity? I'd understand him attacking orcs collaborating with undead. It was Sylvanas who enabled all events prior and leading to the wrathgate incident to happen.

A declaration of war usually turns in open hostilities, once Varian was ported back to SW and was allowed to chill, hostilities did not resume. We have Jaina to thank for that.

thats why the alliance go for thrall capture him and tried to show him of in stormwind like an animal?

nop, he didn't chill

[Deleted]

Their prejudices isn't proof or evidence, let alone justification. Do you think Troll commander in Ashran was justified?

If you think the enemy is doing something to later have an advantage against you, I'd say you are justified in sending spies and sabotaging this activity. We, as side viewers, know that the Alliance is right in their prejudice.


Yeah, he only declared war and didn't follow through with his desire to kill the Horde forces there and capture Undercity because Jaina teleported him the fuck out.

Then, after this incident, both sides waited for after Deathwing showing up before starting any sort of battle against eachother. Yeah, no, I am not convinced. The only more major AvH action that happened after the Wrathgate and before the Shattering, not counting the battlegrounds themselves, was at the Broken Front, where Horde forces ambushed Alliance forces from behind while the latter were assaulting Scourge positions, resulting in a massive mess.


Except the Shattering talks about the factions having a truce and working towards peace. You can't have a truce and peace without war. This isn't rocket science. Why the fuck are you still unable to grasp it?

Two unfriendly factions can go into a truce to fight a third without being in an open war beforehand. And how could war have been started in Undercity if the factions went into a truce shortly after? Does not make any sense.


Except they didn't even have means to raise them before Cata. Nor were they killing all humans before them. Chronology hard. And Bulwark is still on WPL border. And was sending forces to operate in WPL all the time. And apparently this is typical Alliance farming gear: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=44450/and...orce-commander And even those farmers formed a militia and attacked the Forsaken, breaking the truce Thassarian made with Koltira.

Yeah, it is strange that the alliance also sends soldiers along with farmers to clear out the scourge. You mentioned the Bulwark being the Border to Forsaken lands. Settling in close to a Border, on neutral ground, does not equal invasion. Or does the Forsaken somehow have claim to lands they are not even on?

Those are your answers.

Regarding @Syegfryed's statement, As mentioned, the first AvH action after the Undercity incident is the Broken Front, a horde attack. After that, during The Shattering novel, the Horde already has had several offensive actions into Ashenvale, be they instigated by Twilight Hammer or Garrosh, the alliance could not be sure. Once Thrall returned from Outland and was on his way to the Maelstrom, he was captured by the SI: 7.

[Grythletubs]

Horde and Alliance had outposts in Silithus since vanilla. Sargeras obliterated the zone and basically resetted it, making it up for grabs. The Horde grabbed the part they did and set camp. This became their property. Just as their previous Silithus camp was.




The Alliance attacks the Horde camp before they find out what the Horde is mining Azerite for.




Good thing I didn't say Silithus is Horde territory. Reading hard. I said Horde camp in Silithus is Horde territory. Which it is, just as human camp in Stranglethorn, for example.




You getting triggered by facts doesn't make them not facts, nor does it make portraying the Alliance for what it is rather than a flawless paragon of justice anti-Alliance. And not only is your assertion of Alliance aggression not true in general (Alterac Valley, Stormheim, WotLK-MoP war), it's even less true here. Because Alliance attacks the Horde in Silithus before they find out what the Horde plans to do with Azerite. I wonder how many times it needs to be repeated before you people manage to grasp it.




Given that Alliance couldn't have read the preview of Before the Storm, this is irrelevant.




Top notch reasoning here. Yes, let's level a Horde toon in zones that happen during a world war started by the Alliance. That is super relevant to the topic of who starts the conflict. And quote Blizzard saying this quests aren't canon.




This is straw-man horseshit. I didn't say squat about the Horde being the good guys or about everything being about everything being Alliance's fault. I talked about cases of Horde aggression in this very thread. If you can't read get lost instead of projecting your fanfiction version of my arguments. Also, just lol at you again mentioning the Horde being awful to the Alliance during a war in context of who started things.




Quote me saying that or fuck off.




Garrosh didn't say anything about resurrecting anyone (not that the Forsaken did a lot of that in Gilneas). He only forbade the Blight. Specifically in Gilneas, the Forsaken were free to use accepted strains elsewhere. Because Garrosh wanted the Forsaken to bleed to near-death while they took Gilneas, so they would be then finished off by the Alliance. And Sylvanas, for all her supposed imperialism, started to expand only after Alliance started a world war and stopped contributing to the war the moment she secured Lordaeron.




Given how they attack without knowing what the Horde is planning to do with Azerite, no. Maybe one day it will stick. In the year 2623624724623. And Horde just mining things isn't a justification in itself, since they aren't prohibited from mining there by anyone, nor are they under any obligation to heal the land.




He explicitly said he wants to use that as an opportunity to conquer Undercity for the Alliance before even leaving Stormwind, killing two birds with one stone.




What do you mean you're not sure about MoP? I wrote WotLK-MoP war. Not WotLK and MoP war. This was one continuous war since the factions only had a truce and not a peace treaty between WotLK and Cata.




Or, you know, the Forsaken. Who were active in the region years before the Alliance sent their "totally not opening a new front against the Forsaken" expedition, having an outpost right on its border.

Again, you're basing you arguments off the notion that alliance and horde are on the same scale of "danger". Sylvannas aka banshee queen and her pet goblins are mining Azerite. If it were say, Baine, Vol'jin or Lor'Themar, perhaps it would be pretty unnecessary for the alliance to sabotage them without question.

My guess is you're also going to say that Genn was o-so wrong to sabotage Sylvannas' "mission" to enslave the Val'kyr after she literally almost wiped his people off of Azeroth? You're not looking at anything from a logical perspective.

Like I said, level a toon from 1-60, you still seem to only care about the fact that Varian started the war at the Wrathgate (which is a terrible example by the way, considering what actually happened at the wrathgate lmao). GO through the major faction conflict zones and the horde are ravaging everything including zones that aren't theirs. After that, level an alliance toon and you'll see how overly tame they are even in zones that are in their favor (which arguably was only Swamp of Sorrows).

You act as if the alliance should just sit idly while they're getting fucked in order to not be the aggressors.

I'm not triggered, I'm just pointing out the fact that your observations are obsessively one-sided and irrational.

[mickybrighteyes]

I think you do, you try to excuse her she was leading the forsaken,

you're free to think that... that doesn't really relate to whether or not I am actually doing anything. Likewise I think you're misreading information to suit your own bias...

i am not sure Garrosh is behind everything in Lordaeron, but this is another Lore debat.

Big leader with absolute authority over entire faction pushing expansion on all fronts known and unknown... and you're trying to say you think he WASN'T behind expansion agenda? Maybe you missed every scene where he was all pushing for claiming territory and painting continents red and threatening his subordinates for not playing things out his way...
[QUOTE=Niaraa;49017143]
for exemple when forsaken to created the new plague Thrall was in charge i don't think he was ok with this i think he did not know. just following order is not an excuse, in real world all Nazi just follow the order too. Some did not follow this orders : the frostwolf./quote]
Thrall didn't rule with an iron fist. the plague research being done in the undercity didn't really make much headway beyond poisoning some local zealots and captured farmers til wrath gate. The frostwolves weren't ordered to do anything (that I can remember) by any warchief since entering the portal... but this isn't a discussion about Frostwolf politics. Remember, you were sitting there bitching about Sylvanas as warchief by using Garrosh's battle/expansion plans as evidence of her warmongering ways. Every front had an appearance by Garrosh or someone acting as Garrosh, so yeah it's probably Garrosh being at the heart of most of those expansion fronts in Cata and even MoP.

But if you don't like my point about land conquest ok i used others in my previous post. (trying to kill her sister, murder Nathanos cousin...)

The bold isn't an example of how they lead, but examples of some of their moral standing. This is something that needs to be considered yes... but killing someone for your closest confidant or their weird way of trying to be with their family is an odd thing. Now as for the attempted killing of her sister, that really never got beyond planning stage (just like here attack on Stormwind that we know nothing about). For Nathanos, if that practice shows up as a more common theme, cool go ahead and put it on blast since she's basically going to be making Gorefiend DK 2.0 at that point.

but i don't want you think i am not ok with how Sylvanas is. I really love this character and the story of forsaken they are what they are and i am totally ok with this the only thing i try to show here is : "don't trust the forsaken" and "they don't match perfectly with the Horde spirit" imo forsaken should have they own faction with for exemple more races like dark ranger, skelettons and stuff like that, not possible by game mechanics maybe

I think you're idea of horde spirit is what doesn't match. forsaken basically got the same story as orcs. except for the distinction of actually having died in their transformation. Sure the forsaken have a greatly different set of ideals and personal needs.... but what faction hasn't had some group done some sort of internal shit that fucked with others?

[Mehrunes]

I think you do, you try to excuse her she was leading the forsaken, i am not sure Garrosh is behind everything in Lordaeron, but this is another Lore debat. for exemple when forsaken to created the new plague Thrall was in charge i don't think he was ok with this i think he did not know. just following order is not an excuse, in real world all Nazi just follow the order too. Some did not follow this orders : the frostwolf.

The Frostwolves didn't have Kor'kron goons stationed in their city and Garrosh's general watching their every move.

But if you don't like my point about land conquest ok i used others in my previous post. (trying to kill her sister, murder Nathanos cousin...) but i don't want you think i am not ok with how Sylvanas is. I really love this character and the story of forsaken they are what they are and i am totally ok with this the only thing i try to show here is : "don't trust the forsaken" and "they don't match perfectly with the Horde spirit" imo forsaken should have they own faction with for exemple more races like dark ranger, skelettons and stuff like that, not possible by game mechanics maybe

Nathanos' cousin was caught after he killed several Forsaken. He was dead meat anyway. While what she did was ruthless, all it effectively changed was putting his body to some use.

If you think the enemy is doing something to later have an advantage against you, I'd say you are justified in sending spies and sabotaging this activity. We, as side viewers, know that the Alliance is right in their prejudice.

Which they don't know before the spying started.

Then, after this incident, both sides waited for after Deathwing showing up before starting any sort of battle against eachother. Yeah, no, I am not convinced. The only more major AvH action that happened after the Wrathgate and before the Shattering, not counting the battlegrounds themselves, was at the Broken Front, where Horde forces ambushed Alliance forces from behind while the latter were assaulting Scourge positions, resulting in a massive mess.

Which is irrelevant. Hundred years war had periods of no fighting that lasted years at a time. That didn't magically alter the start date.

Two unfriendly factions can go into a truce to fight a third without being in an open war beforehand. And how could war have been started in Undercity if the factions went into a truce shortly after? Does not make any sense.

If they aren't in war beforehand, they are at peace. Which means truce is not needed. And how could have war been started in Undercity if they made a truce? Because the truce doesn't end a war. Which was the whole goddamn point. Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah, it is strange that the alliance also sends soldiers along with farmers to clear out the scourge. You mentioned the Bulwark being the Border to Forsaken lands. Settling in close to a Border, on neutral ground, does not equal invasion. Or does the Forsaken somehow have claim to lands they are not even on?

I explicitly mentioned them being active in the region, not invading it. They attacked the Scourge all over WPL in Vanilla. And claims are used precisely for lands you're not on. That's their fucking purpose. The Forsaken won against Arthas, conquered his kingdom, made a new one in its place and proclaimed successorship. That includes claiming parts of previous Lordaeron they don't control yet. Also, any land settled by the Forsaken is automatically not neutral land.

[Aleksej89]

sylvanas is no different than lich king or garrosh or sargeras.

people who are fans of such characters favor them exactly because those characters behave in such a manner.

the only reason sylvanas is more popular is because she also has tits, while all of them are your standard nazi genocide self-serving hypocrites.

[Zulkhan]

I don't understand.

Not sure if you're implying that the alliance should let Sylvannas mine Azerite and sit idly and cross their fingers while she plots to destroy them with an extremely powerful source of destruction. Yes Anduin is not aware that Sylvannas wants to destroy Stormwind...but it's Sylvannas, aka leader of the undead forsaken who've displayed their "slaughter everything"-ness and Val'kyr enslaving shenanigans.
It has everything to do with Sylvannas, because the horde in Silithus are there under her direct orders. I don't think there's much justifying needed considering were dealing with a batshit crazy undead lady. (despite her being my forever favorite character even if Blizzard sucks at writing)

All I'm saying is that the Alliance have not a single justification to do what they do aside participating in an arms race and be determined to not let their equally powerful adversary gain an advantage. So no, it has nothing to do with Sylvanas per se. Let's not pretend Sylvanas' attempt to enslave Eyir is something the Alliance gives a shit about; the only reason why Greymane cared is because he wanted his revenge and make Sylvanas suffer in some way.

[Mehrunes]

Again, you're basing you arguments off the notion that alliance and horde are on the same scale of "danger". Sylvannas aka banshee queen and her pet goblins are mining Azerite. If it were say, Baine, Vol'jin or Lor'Themar, perhaps it would be pretty unnecessary for the alliance to sabotage them without question.

Which is irrelevant. Alliance attacking Sylvanas because they think she's dangerous while they have no proof of the danger of the Horde mining things in Silithus is still not justification.

My guess is you're also going to say that Genn was o-so wrong to sabotage Sylvannas' "mission" to enslave the Val'kyr after she literally almost wiped his people off of Azeroth? You're not looking at anything from a logical perspective.

Given how Genn learned that her plan involved Val'kyr only in Skold'ashil, i.e. he didn't attack her because of the Val'kyr (you know, speaking of logic, chronology of things should be taken into account) but because he simply hated her, him attacking her was bad, yes.

Like I said, level a toon from 1-60, you still seem to only care about the fact that Varian started the war at the Wrathgate (which is a terrible example by the way, considering what actually happened at the wrathgate lmao). GO through the major faction conflict zones and the horde are ravaging everything including zones that aren't theirs. After that, level an alliance toon and you'll see how overly tame they are even in zones that are in their favor (which arguably was only Swamp of Sorrows).

Given how I'm not negating Horde's actions during the war, why? That is still not relevant to the topic of who started a war. And I seem to care about the fact that Alliance started the war because I'm arguing with someone who denies it. What is context, I wonder. Speaking of context and previously raised concept of chronology, what happened at Wrathgate was people that rose in open rebellion against the Forsaken and managed to capture their capital attacked both the Alliance and the Horde. Of which Varian learned before he went to Undercity.

Also, Horde are ravaging zones that aren't theirs? What, you expected them to attack their own zones during a war? And if you want to compare things, the Horde only focuses on border zones like Ashenvale or Hillsbrad. Meanwhile the Alliance sent forces even to Horde starting zones. There's not a single Horde member present in any of the Alliance starting zones, whereas Durotar alone has two separate camps of Alliance forces, including one planning to attack Orgrimmar.

You act as if the alliance should just sit idly while they're getting fucked in order to not be the aggressors.

But given how they are the aggressors, they are the reason why they are getting fucked in the first place. And given how they are the aggressors, you turning things around on the Horde because of what they do after the Alliance aggression is you acting as if the Horde should just sit idly while the Alliance attacks them. Because chronology still exists. As well as the concept of cause and effect.

I'm not triggered, I'm just pointing out the fact that your observations are obsessively one-sided and irrational.

Meanwhile yours are devoid of logic and completely ignore that chronology is a thing that exists. And sure, you ignoring the context and the reason why I'm bringing up Alliance being the aggressor just so you could inanely flail in my general direction is totally not you being triggered. Fer sure.

And given how your portrayal of Stormheim is you failing at chronology, your portrayal of Varian's declaration of war in Undercity is you failing at chronology, context and Varian's own statements and you did not address Alterac Valley example at all, your initial remark (again, devoid of the ability to grasp context) on me saying Alliance starts things, i.e. you defending the Alliance because they are always acting "in response" to the Horde is unsubstantiated nonsense.

All I'm saying is that the Alliance have not a single justification to do what they do aside participating in an arms race and be determined to not let their equally powerful adversary gain an advantage. So no, it has nothing to do with Sylvanas per se. Let's not pretend Sylvanas' attempt to enslave Eyir was something the Alliance gave a shit about; the only reason why Greymane cared is because he wanted his revenge and make Sylvanas suffer in some way.

It's also not something that Alliance knew about until Genn followed Sylvanas to the chamber in the final cinematic. He only learned that her plan involved Val'kyr in general in some way in Skold'ashil. Before that he himself said numerous times he doesn't know what she's up to.

[baskev]

How are Horde fans going to justify the attempted genocide of an entire race of people in Battle for Azeroth? Since her stated goal is to wipe out all opposition in Kalimdor and gain total control of the continent, meaning any settlements of Night Elves will be either wiped out or forced into mass exodus.

All I'll say is they better replace her and any loyalist of hers quick or the Horde will never escape its evil label.

Do not get me wrong. I think its garrosh levels of stupidity. And also the reason why saurfang wants to talk to anduin ( something pretty much every horde fan site steps ).
But nope its not a genocide. Because that would mean it was a targeted action to remove all Night elves from the world.

[Zulkhan]

It's also not something that Alliance knew about until Genn followed Sylvanas to the chamber in the final cinematic. He only learned that her plan involved Val'kyr in general in some way in Skold'ashil. Before that he himself said numerous times he doesn't know what she's up to.

Bleah, I kind of failed to edit my post properly since I meant to use the present tense rather than the past, meaning that even now the Alliance has unlikely any reason to care about what occurred in Stormheim, since nothing of Sylvanas' plan involved the Alliance directly (even Genn calls Sylvanas' quest one to merely achieve immortality) and all that concerned Genn was indeed vengeance and nothing else.

[Deleted]

Which they don't know before the spying started.

But they did. From the cinematic at the start of the patch you see a single SI: 7 observer looking at the operation from a safe distance. Later, a piece of Azerite, the one given to Anduin, was procured in an unknown fashion along with the information that the horde is there and mining in the numbers. That is all the information that was needed to order in further investigation.


Which is irrelevant. Hundred years war had periods of no fighting that lasted years at a time. That didn't magically alter the start date.

So you are saying that the Horde and Alliance have been in a war which has not officially ended even before WotlK? Who started it and when? What is relevant here?


If they aren't in war beforehand, they are at peace. Which means truce is not needed. And how could have war been started in Undercity if they made a truce? Because the truce doesn't end a war. Which was the whole goddamn point. Jesus fucking Christ.

War and Peace are not the sole two states of relations between two factions. Or they are, if you are a 4 year old.


I explicitly mentioned them being active in the region, not invading it. They attacked the Scourge all over WPL in Vanilla. And claims are used precisely for lands you're not on. That's their fucking purpose. The Forsaken won against Arthas, conquered his kingdom, made a new one in its place and proclaimed successorship. That includes claiming parts of previous Lordaeron they don't control yet. Also, any land settled by the Forsaken is automatically not neutral land.

You will have to give me a source here on Forsaken lands and which territories they have claimed aspirations to after occupying Undercity. Anything else is headcannon. WPL was not settled by the time the Alliance went there to claim it for their own, and only then a Forsaken retaliatory action arrived.

Here are your answers.

[Zulkhan]

Which is irrelevant. Alliance attacking Sylvanas because they think she's dangerous while they have no proof of the danger of the Horde mining things in Silithus is still not justification.

Besides, there's absolutely zero proof that this action was caused because of "muh Sylvanas". The only character who genuinely gives a shit about her is Genn Greymane. Meanwhile Anduin talks about the Horde knowing what Azerite is and how the Alliance needs to know more or how Jaina keeps rambling about the Horde being the worst thing ever happened on Azeroth since the fall of the Black Empire.

[Deleted]

Besides, there's absolutely zero proof that this action was caused because of "muh Sylvanas". The only character who genuinely gives a shit about her is Genn Greymane. Meanwhile Anduin talks about the Horde knowing what Azerite is and how the Alliance needs to know more or how Jaina keeps rambling about the Horde being the worst thing ever happened on Azeroth since the fall of the Black Empire.

Given the fact that Sylvanas is now the leader of the Horde, coming to a conclusion that she knows about a mining operation conducted by the Horde is pretty simple stuff.

[Zulkhan]

Given the fact that Sylvanas is now the leader of the Horde, coming to a conclusion that she knows about a mining operation conducted by the Horde is pretty simple stuff.

That has pretty much nothing to do with the fact that the Horde's change of leadership is barely acknowledged by anyone who isn't Genn.

[anaxie]

Yeah sorry, if aliens ever come to invade Earth just like the Orcs invaded Azeroth, I personally will fight until my final breath to exterminate said aliens. Without question. That is what Orcs are. Aliens from off world that came for nothing short of world domination.

Lol? Humans and dwarves are alien to azeroth to btw

Considering the titans created them out of clay for play

[Deleted]

That has pretty much nothing to do with the fact that the Horde's change of leadership is barely acknowledged by anyone who isn't Genn.

Incidentally Genn is the primary advisor of Anduin. How did that come to pass, no idea.

[Zulkhan]

Incidentally Genn is the primary advisor of Anduin. How did that come to pass, no idea.

Yep, Genn's "advice" has been instrumental in convincing Anduin to go ham on that Azerite sweetness by basically saying "man Goblins are greedy mofos" which is info intimately related to Sylvanas, no doubt.