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[DeicideUH]

Lets not forget the fact that right before it Sylvanas and Forsaken betrayed and killed Alliance Grand Marshal (Garithos) and his men. Do you really expect Alliance to welcome Sylvanas and Forsaken after that

I also would like to see the entire text, as the quoted part only shows Sylvanas' assumptions of what happened to her emissaries, and usually Chronicles explain what happened.

Not that I mind Alliance killing undead on sight, but depending on how things really went, the whole meaning of the event changes.

Hypothetical events:
- Sylvanas sent a missive in advance <--- Alliance is to blame for being forewarned and still killing the diplomats
- ...BUT Katrana Prestor, advisor to the king, gets the missive and never tells anyone <--- Alliance didn't receive the forewarning
- Sylvanas didn't send a forewarning <--- Sylvanas, you dumbass, you shouldn't send undead without forewarning!
- Alliance was aware Sylvanas betrayed Garithos <--- Alliance has reason to not trust Sylvanas at all
- The Forsaken diplomats never arrived (because they were killed by peasants/Scarlet Crusade/random monster or some other thing) <--- Alliance is not to blame

[Mehrunes]

Lets not forget the fact that right before it Sylvanas and Forsaken betrayed and killed Alliance Grand Marshal (Garithos) and his men. Do you really expect Alliance to welcome Sylvanas and Forsaken after that?

*Starts a post with "let's not forget"* *Forgets that no one survived from Garithos' group to tell the tale, which means that Alliance couldn't learn about this and as such it couldn't have factored into their reasoning, even though it has been pointed out to them a billion times* OK then

Plus Sylvanas and Forsaken killed and betrayed Alliance Grand Marshal and his men before it. People are forgetting facts on purpose.

Today on "How to live with no self-awareness".

So traitor Garrithos is responsible for turning away two races from Alliance. Cool.

Except Garithos couldn't be a factor since Alliance had no way of knowing about it. Highwhale is just spreading nonsense because they are the ones that are forgetting facts on purpose. The only person from Garithos' army that we know survived did so because he left the moment he allied with Sylvanas.

[Combatbutler]

*Starts a post with "let's not forget"* *Forgets that no one survived from Garithos' group to tell the tale, which means that Alliance couldn't learn about this and as such it couldn't have factored into their reasoning, even though it has been pointed out to them a billion times* OK then

Not quite

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kristoff_(human)

[Jastall]

I was talking about when the Horde / Goblin only started landing there, though. It's Horde territory now by the rights of conquest, but it surely wasn't theirs when the Goblin arrived and started building a town over. LazarusLong was saying that the NE attacked the Goblin at Azshara, Horde territory in the matter of the clash in Ashenvale, implying that it was supposedly a bad action, so I pointed out that it wasn't Horde territory by then, it was (quoting myself) "technically either NE territory or at worst, contested one" and thus, wasn't really on the same level as Garrosh invading Ashenvale which was stated to be mostly NE territory in Chronicle.

Sure, but it wasn't really Night Elf territory either given that they practically deserted the place. It was up for grabs, the Horde grabbed it first. Ashenvale is a whole other ballgame, that is clearly Night Elf territory that the Horde attempted repeatedly to invade and exploit by force.

[Mehrunes]

Not quite

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kristoff_(human)

Who left before the massacre, because he didn't like Garithos allying with the Forsaken (so kinda before the battle for the capital). That's not someone who could have told the Alliance what happened after the joint Forsaken/Alliance army took Lordaeron city. I mean, I even talked about it in the third paragraph.

[Combatbutler]

Who left before the massacre, because he didn't like Garithos allying with the Forsaken (so kinda before the battle for the capital). That's not someone who could have told the Alliance what happened after the joint Forsaken/Alliance army took Lordaeron city. I mean, I even talked about it in the third paragraph.

Well he would have told them the forsaken betrayed them, though he didn't know he was telling the truth.

[Mehrunes]

Well he would have told them the forsaken betrayed them, though he didn't know he was telling the truth.

So he'd have told them the tale of his unsubstantiated prejudices, not actual events of Garithos' demise. Since he allied with a demon shortly after and then got killed by Jaina, his opinions dropped in value even further. Not to mention he moved to Theramore and Sylvanas most likely sent envoys to actually important places like Ironforge and Stormwind and why would Theramore send information about ramblings of a guy that turned out to be traitor to those places? They could just as well send them oathouse logbooks, they'd hold about the same importance.

[Combatbutler]

So he'd have told them the tale of his unsubstantiated prejudices, not actual events of Garithos' demise. Not exactly believable witness. Especially since he allied with a demon shortly after and then got killed by Jaina. Not to mention he moved to Theramore and Sylvanas most likely sent envoys to actually important places like Ironforge and Stormwind and why would Theramore send information about ramblings of a guy that turned out to be traitor to those places? They could just as well send them oathouse logbooks.

Remember this guy was part of Garithos entourage, the ones that sentenced the blood elves to death and he still became the chamberlain of Theramore of all places. The political damage would have already been done at that time, the people back then had a great deal of trust in him and had acted on it for years.

[Highwhale]

*Starts a post with "let's not forget"* *Forgets that no one survived from Garithos' group to tell the tale, which means that Alliance couldn't learn about this and as such it couldn't have factored into their reasoning, even though it has been pointed out to them a billion times* OK then

https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_New_Powe...n_(WC3_Undead)

Sylvanas ordered Varimathras to kill Balnazzar, as a last test of the Dreadlord's loyalty to her. Despite his protests that the Nathrezim were forbidden to harm one another he eventually did so, or at least seemed to. Garithos then ordered them out of "his" city, and Sylvanas told Varimathras to kill him also, which he gladly did with no remorse. The remains of Garithos's forces were slain or fled. With this final victory, Sylvanas declared herself ruler of the Plaguelands, and renamed the free-willed Undead who had pledged themselves to her the Forsaken.

And ofcourse this Kristoff Chamberlan.

You seriously believe no one knew about Forsaken killing Garithos and his army? Poor thing.

[OIS]

*Starts a post with "let's not forget"* *Forgets that no one survived from Garithos' group to tell the tale, which means that Alliance couldn't learn about this and as such it couldn't have factored into their reasoning, even though it has been pointed out to them a billion times* OK then

I think the Alliance would figure out that Garithos' forces were destroyed by the undead due to that very reason. They are not that stupid.

[Mehrunes]

Remember this guy was part of Garithos entourage, the ones that sentenced the blood elves to death and he still became the chamberlain of Theramore of all places. The political damage would have already been done at that time, the people back then had a great deal of trust in him and had acted on it for years.

And who didn't mention anything about Forsaken betraying Garithos to anyone in Theramore in the book he was in. And even that still doesn't address Theramore being on another continent than the Alliance and without any particular degree of contact with EK prior to Vanilla.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_New_Powe...n_(WC3_Undead)

And ofcourse this Kristoff Chamberlan.

You seriously believe no one knew about Forsaken killing Garithos and his army? Poor thing.

You are seriously using utterly unsourced summary as your argument?

I think the Alliance would figure out that Garithos' forces were destroyed by the undead due to that very reason. They are not that stupid.

There have been three different groups of undead in Lordaeron at the time. One of them almost wiped it out and spawned the others to begin with. Alliance had nothing to blame it on Sylvanas and not the Scourge or Dreadlord's forces.

[Highwhale]

You are seriously using utterly unsourced summary as your argument?

Show your source where it is said Forsaken killed ALL of Garithos army.

[Mehrunes]

Show your source where it is said Forsaken killed ALL of Garithos army.

You're making the positive claim that there are survivors. It's on you to prove their existence. Since I'm denying that, lack of any known survivors is evidence enough, unless you can show any. Jesus Christ, you don't even know basics of argumentation.

[Highwhale]

You're making the positive claim that there are survivors. It's on you to prove their existence. Since I'm denying that, lack of any known survivors is evidence enough, unless you can show any. Jesus Christ, you don't even know basics of argumentation.

So you can't? I thought so.

[ello]

If you want to claim that the Alliance rebuked the Forsaken because of Garithos, then it's up to you to prove that. To my knowledge, not a single Alliance member has referred to this event at any point, and given the relations between the factions, this seems like the kind of thing that would be mentioned had the Alliance known about it. Unless explicitly said otherwise, we can't assume anyone actually knew of Garithos' death at the hands of Sylvanas, this means we can't assume the Alliance can use Garithos' death as justification for killing these emissaries.

In fact, there is some evidence to suggest the opposite. In the Ashbringer comic the Alliance refers to the Undead in the city as "not a threat", logically this means that the Alliance didn't know the Forsaken were responsible for killing Garithos and his men, otherwise they would've viewed them as a threat.

Occam's razor is with @Mehrunes here. The simplest explanation is that Garithos and his men died, and no one in the Alliance ever mentions how they died because they don't know about it.

Bottom line is that Sylvanas sent ambassadors everywhere, the ones sent to the Horde either returned or were accepted, the ones sent to the Alliance were killed. From the perspective of Sylvanas and the Forsaken, this sets up the Alliance as a hostile nation that cannot be negotiated with.

[Highwhale]

If you want to claim that the Alliance rebuked the Forsaken because of Garithos, then it's up to you to prove that. To my knowledge, not a single Alliance member has referred to this event at any point, and given the relations between the factions, this seems like the kind of thing that would be mentioned had the Alliance known about it. Unless explicitly said otherwise, we can't assume anyone actually knew of Garithos' death at the hands of Sylvanas, this means we can't assume the Alliance can use Garithos' death as justification for killing these emissaries.

In fact, there is some evidence to suggest the opposite. In the Ashbringer comic the Alliance refers to the Undead in the city as "not a threat", logically this means that the Alliance didn't know the Forsaken were responsible for killing Garithos and his men, otherwise they would've viewed them as a threat.

Occam's razor is with @Mehrunes here. The simplest explanation is that Garithos and his men died, and no one in the Alliance ever mentions how they died because they don't know about it.

Bottom line is that Sylvanas sent ambassadors everywhere, the ones sent to the Horde either returned or were accepted, the ones sent to the Alliance were killed. From the perspective of Sylvanas and the Forsaken, this sets up the Alliance as a hostile nation that cannot be negotiated with.

You think even if ALL Garithos men died Alliance so stupid not to put 2+2?

Also i would like to see source where it said Forsaken ambassadors were killed by Alliance.

From the perspective of Sylvanas and the Forsaken, this sets up the Alliance as a hostile nation that cannot be negotiated with.

Its kinda stupid statement considering Sylvanas and Forsaken were first who killed Alliance members.

[Mehrunes]

So you can't? I thought so.

First of all, again, I don't have to. You're making the positive claim here. That's how arguments work. If you can't operate in established constraints of arguments, just go away. Secondly, also again, if I claim that there are no survivors, there not being any survivors mentioned anywhere in lore already supports my argument (so shove your "so you can't" up the dark crevice from which you pulled it). And at the same time disproves yours. Which is the very reason why it's on you, the person who claims there are survivors, to provide examples.

Finally, a thought exercise to showcase why you're being illogical: prove there are no unicorns.

You think even if ALL Garithos men died Alliance so stupid not to put 2+2?

And given the presence of the Scourge and Dreadlord's (hell, even Scarlet Crusade's) forces in the region, do explain how 2+2 is "Forsaken did it". Especially in light of the Ashbringer bit @ello brought up about Alliance referring to Undercity as not a threat.

Also i would like to see source where it said Forsaken ambassadors were killed by Alliance.

I would like to quote the specific part of @ello 's post that says they were.

[LazarusLong]

???the elves are the only ones that live on kalimor other than furbolg and tauren. Azshara is night elf territory (and furbolg) because they are the ppl who live there. Yall realize the real world isnt split up in zones. Felwood, moonglade, azshara, and duskwood are all one forest. Its night elf territory cus ...its night elf territory
.

You do realize that all of this land was actually troll empire?

[MikeBogina]

In the game, Garithos is killed by Varimathras and cannobolized by ghouls while none of his men are present. There goes proof that they killed him.

In the Ashbringer comic after the battle it is shown that the Crusaders are watching Lordaeron's gates on how there's much activity in the city, but no alliance are there or getting by. It's safe to assume that Not a single Alliance soldier got out of that city alive as the Scarlet Crusaders make no mention of the Alliance.

A lot of Alliance players like to justify what the Alliance does by using information that we the players know, but forget that the Alliance can break the 4th wall and check these facts.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize that all of this was actually troll empire?

We Was Kangz and Shit. But true, the Night Elf empire took land belonging to the Trolls in the first place

[Highwhale]

First of all, again, I don't have to. You're making the positive claim here. That's how arguments work. If you can't operate in established constraints of arguments, just go away. Secondly, also again, if I claim that there are no survivors, there not being any survivors mentioned anywhere in lore already supports my argument (so shove your "so you can't" up the dark crevice from which you pulled it). And at the same time disproves yours. Which is the very reason why it's on you, the person who claims there are survivors, to provide examples.

Finally, a thought exercise to showcase why you're being illogical: prove there are no unicorns.

Please. Spare the lecture and provide source for your statement. If you can't just say it. No need to act like very intellectual and smart being. Your highhorse is tired.

I would like to quote the specific part of @ello 's post that says they were.

How:

In fact, there is some evidence to suggest the opposite. In the Ashbringer comic the Alliance refers to the Undead in the city as "not a threat", logically this means that the Alliance didn't know the Forsaken were responsible for killing Garithos and his men, otherwise they would've viewed them as a threat.

Proves Alliance killed ambassadors?