How do we feel these days about M+ scoring?

[ydraw]

I explicitely wrote that it helps me weed out dungeons dodgers. Again, not perfectly, but it's highly correlated.
This type of players is the exact reason it's insane to pug SEAT keys nowadays. They refuse to learn.

So as i said, you're using it to judge players on their playing ability. Despite the fact that score doesn't actually reflect that at all.

You're not using it to judge a player's experience with the particular key you have.

Which is what I've been saying all along. Lots of people in this thread are being very dishonest about what raider.io score means to them.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

So as i said, you're using it to judge players on their playing ability. Despite the fact that score doesn't actually reflect that at all.

This is where I feel you are mistaken ydraw. No one metric completely defines everyone's ability, but to say the score doesn't reflect playing ability "at all" is just silly. Are there confounding factors? Sure. But is it as accurate as any other tool of its kind? Yes. I would argue it is one of the most accurate tools of its kind since it measures what you've accomplished rather than your gear. The only more accurate way I can think of to evaluate players is to run with them so you have 1st hand knowledge. This addon is not meant to replace 1st hand knowledge. It is meant to help you evaluate strangers.

[ydraw]

This is where I feel you are mistaken ydraw. No one metric completely defines everyone's ability, but to say the score doesn't reflect playing ability "at all" is just silly. Are there confounding factors? Sure. But is it as accurate as any other tool of its kind? Yes.

M+ score doesn't measure playing ability though. It measures the average quality of the groups you joined. You know what accurately measures playing ability? Logs.

If I pugged every dungeon in random pugs my score would be poor, because random pugs are poor. If I ran every dungeon with a team of the best mythic raiders of my guild, my score would be astronomically better.

M+ score doesn't measure individual play skill at all, because score is a reflection of the collective efforts of all the people you did those runs with.

Of course, everyone knows this, but this is why elitists *love* raider.io and similar tools. It gives them another way to bash the casuals that they hate so much, giving them (in their minds) a justifiable reason to call everyone else terrible if they don't play in an organised guild or team structure. And at the same time make themselves feel very good about themselves for managing to find 4 good players to play with.

[amaze123]

M+ score doesn't measure playing ability though. It measures the average quality of the groups you joined. You know what accurately measures playing ability? Logs.

If I pugged every dungeon in random pugs my score would be poor, because random pugs are poor. If I ran every dungeon with a team of the best mythic raiders of my guild, my score would be astronomically better.

M+ score doesn't measure individual play skill at all, because score is a reflection of the collective efforts of all the people you did those runs with.

Of course, everyone knows this, but this is why elitists *love* raider.io and similar tools. It gives them another way to bash the casuals that they hate so much, giving them (in their minds) a justifiable reason to call everyone else terrible if they don't play in an organised guild or team structure. And at the same time make themselves feel very good about themselves for managing to find 4 good players to play with.

I did up to +23 with pugs. That is more than enough to build a decent score. You do not seem to understand the high m+ commuinity at all.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

M+ score doesn't measure playing ability though. It measures the average quality of the groups you joined. You know what accurately measures playing ability? Logs.

If I pugged every dungeon in random pugs my score would be poor, because random pugs are poor. If I ran every dungeon with a team of the best mythic raiders of my guild, my score would be astronomically better.

M+ score doesn't measure individual play skill at all, because score is a reflection of the collective efforts of all the people you did those runs with.

Of course, everyone knows this, but this is why elitists *love* raider.io and similar tools. It gives them another way to bash the casuals that they hate so much, giving them (in their minds) a justifiable reason to call everyone else terrible if they don't play in an organised guild or team structure. And at the same time make themselves feel very good about themselves for managing to find 4 good players to play with.

B.S. I am sorry, but you are being stubborn and obstinate.

"Some players get carried by groups where they aren't pulling their weight" =/= "Scores mean nothing".

Anymore than CE means nothing because someone *might* have gotten a carry. You can't control whether others bought their scores or achievements, but until a majority of the player base is doing that (hopefully never), scores and achievements are a valid way to evaluate the skill of strangers.

- - - Updated - - -

If I pugged every dungeon in random pugs my score would be poor, because random pugs are poor.

Only if those pugs were your best scores.

If I ran every dungeon with a team of the best mythic raiders of my guild, my score would be astronomically better.

Which would mean at least you found a group of mythic raiders willing to run with you. Either you paid them - a confounding factor that will always exist with any system - or you are someone mythic raiders don't mind running with. Which means I might not regret running with you either.

No system is perfect, but at least it's something. Stop pretending it means nothing.

[ydraw]

"Some players get carried by groups where they aren't pulling their weight" =/= "Scores mean nothing".

I never said anything about being carried or not pulling their weight.

The better the group, the better your score will be, regardless of your own skill level. It doesn't matter if you're the best player in the group or the worst player in the group - If you're lucky enough to have a regular group of dedicated players to run M+ with on a regular basis, your score will be much better than if you don't.

Logs are a measure of individual performance. Raider.io score is a measure of group performance. This is so obvious it's painful to watch you twisting yourself into knots trying to argue against it.

No system is perfect, but at least it's something. Stop pretending it means nothing.

It's about as meaningful as gearscore. Both are measures of the quality of players you play with, more than they are a measure of your own personal skill.

There's already a way to check an individual player's skill level. Take a look at their logs on Warcraftlogs. If they have purple or orange parses (by ilvl), they are good. If they don't, they are not. It's real simple and the only reason people don't do it is because you need to alt tab.

Here's an example from a random log I plucked from warcraftlogs rankings:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

If "Skeith" apps to my group, I know he's a good player without needing to see his raider.io score. If "Shilow" apps, I know to reject him without seeing his raider.io score.

But just to further illustrate the point, let's just put Shílow into search and see his other fights: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...dps&bracket=-1

Grey parses everywhere. This guy is a bad player.

Now let's look at Skeith: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...dps&bracket=-1

Literally parsing at 99% for his ilevel on every boss in Antorus. And note that his guild isn't particular good either. They're only 2/11 mythic by the look of it. But it's very evident from his logs that he is skilled enough to be playing with better players than he currently is. Also i can see that in his most recent log, his ilvl is still only around 960. So neither is ilvl giving you a very good indication of his actual ability.

For all I know these guys do M+ together on a regular basis and have very similar raider.io scores. But this log is a much more meaningful measure of their respective play skill.

If warcraftlogs released an addon that let you see these figures in the group finder, it would be infinitely more valuable than raider.io score. Raider.io is mostly useful for seeing if the person in question has experience with the particular dungeon you are doing - but it's not even very good at that since it only shows their best run for the dungeon, it doesn't even tell you how many times they've run it.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Of course, everyone knows this, but this is why elitists *love* raider.io and similar tools. It gives them another way to bash the casuals that they hate so much, giving them (in their minds) a justifiable reason to call everyone else terrible if they don't play in an organised guild or team structure. And at the same time make themselves feel very good about themselves for managing to find 4 good players to play with.

You're projecting again. Why must you assume everyone else is a jerk? Unless you are one and justify it by pretending everyone else is the same?

[Vynx]

I'm curious to see how's scoring now, since they take into account the top 500 runs now. Before that, it used to suck getting into first 100 during late week.

[Andrraste]

I picked "I used to be against it but now that Blizz reports more scores I like it. " because it is I guess the closest answer to my opinion.

I'm someone that quit for a while because I had other IRL stuff to do, and just came back recently. All I really want to do is to work towards the +15 achievement. So far it's just been miserable. As if being a rogue (thus no tank or heal option) wasn't miserable enough to find groups. I can barely ever get into groups > +10. Attempting to grind this score to hopefully achieve my goal has been soul sucking. But the additional leaderboard spots has given me some small increases that previously did not happen.

And sadly joining guilds hasn't been any better. Tried 4 different guilds that said they run M+ groups. But most people just have their small regular group and run their one weekly +15. Can't blame anyone really, this expansion has been going a while. Who wants to run some new guy no one knows?

[vsb]

Before Blizzard implemented top-500 with their API, I didn't like it, because it was a lottery, a lot of my runs were not scored, so I didn't even bother. When they implemented top-500, virtually any my run was scored, so I just got new personal progress meter. Now I'm slowly increasing it (2700 atm) and I like it a lot. I'm not sure whether that's coincidence, but recently all groups I was invited to, were quite decent, nobody leaves and everybody plays good enough. Personally the only nuisance for me is updating addon every day, because I won't use curse adware, though. I think that M+ score is awesome and the only thing I'd like is integrating it into WoW, but current implementation is good too.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm curious to see how's scoring now, since they take into account the top 500 runs now. Before that, it used to suck getting into first 100 during late week.

It's very good. Check it out: https://raider.io/mythic-plus/realms/eu/current you can score with any key on almost any dungeon. Might be a bit harder, on my high-pop server at Tuesday night it was necessary to get as high as +16 for some dungeons, but that's the worst case.

[ydraw]

Personally the only nuisance for me is updating addon every day, because I won't use curse adware, though.

Off topic but Curse was bought out by Twitch a while back. You now update addons via the Twitch client, which doesn't have any ads that I can see.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I picked "I used to be against it but now that Blizz reports more scores I like it. " because it is I guess the closest answer to my opinion.

I'm someone that quit for a while because I had other IRL stuff to do, and just came back recently. All I really want to do is to work towards the +15 achievement. So far it's just been miserable. As if being a rogue (thus no tank or heal option) wasn't miserable enough to find groups. I can barely ever get into groups > +10. Attempting to grind this score to hopefully achieve my goal has been soul sucking. But the additional leaderboard spots has given me some small increases that previously did not happen.

And sadly joining guilds hasn't been any better. Tried 4 different guilds that said they run M+ groups. But most people just have their small regular group and run their one weekly +15. Can't blame anyone really, this expansion has been going a while. Who wants to run some new guy no one knows?

Try looking for groups late at night or other off hours. When it's harder to fill groups, they tend to be less picky. That's what I do on my alts, when my friends aren't on.

[lonely zergling]

I highly recommend the various m+ discords (im in the EU horde discord where basically all top EU players are) for getting decent puggers. The one I visit also lets you use your score to get a rank on the discord making it easier to find equally skilled people faster. In the 5k+ channel you can easily find PUG people for 24-27's. I'm sure there is such a discord for NA community. But there is also a low key channel for everyone.

So yeah score equals skill. If it didnt we couldnt pug 26's with high score people.

[ydraw]

So yeah score equals skill.

No, it doesn't.

Sure you need to be highly skilled to attain a high score, that is true.

But having a low score does not necessarily indicate low skill.

So score does not in fact equal skill at all.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Sure you need to be highly skilled to attain a high score, that is true.

But having a low score does not necessarily indicate low skill.

We agree!

So score does not in fact equal skill at all.

Leave off "at all" and you wouldn't be contradicting yourself.

[ydraw]

We agree!

Leave off "at all" and you wouldn't be contradicting yourself.

I am not contradicting myself.

The sentence "score equals skill" is not true, since you can have a low score simply from not participating. There are a huge amount of skilled players with low scores simply because they don't bother pushing keys, but only run their 15 once a week for the chest. That doesn't make them unskilled.

[Andrraste]

On the funny side of score != skill, last week on my +13 EoA key I got an Arms warrior with 2100 points (Probably not alot to a bunch of you). He died 20+ times during the run. It was so funny that in the end I couldn't even get mad failing the run. At times it was literally just he would die, release, run back, then die again.

In retrospect I probably could have looked closer, he was probably just someone that buys carries. But it was so sad it was funny.

I highly recommend the various m+ discords (im in the EU horde discord where basically all top EU players are) for getting decent puggers. The one I visit also lets you use your score to get a rank on the discord making it easier to find equally skilled people faster. In the 5k+ channel you can easily find PUG people for 24-27's. I'm sure there is such a discord for NA community. But there is also a low key channel for everyone.

So yeah score equals skill. If it didnt we couldnt pug 26's with high score people.

OK, thanks. I don't really know where to look, but I'm sure I can dig something up.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

On the funny side of score != skill, last week on my +13 EoA key I got an Arms warrior with 2100 points (Probably not alot to a bunch of you). He died 20+ times during the run. It was so funny that in the end I couldn't even get mad failing the run. At times it was literally just he would die, release, run back, then die again.

In retrospect I probably could have looked closer, he was probably just someone that buys carries. But it was so sad it was funny.

Or some kid on dad's account. It happens.

[amaze123]

I am not contradicting myself.

The sentence "score equals skill" is not true, since you can have a low score simply from not participating. There are a huge amount of skilled players with low scores simply because they don't bother pushing keys, but only run their 15 once a week for the chest. That doesn't make them unskilled.

It does make them unskilled because experience is a HUGE part of skill and they obviously do not have experienxe if they only run one 15 once a week.

[ydraw]

It does make them unskilled because experience is a HUGE part of skill and they obviously do not have experienxe if they only run one 15 once a week.

The expansion's been out for about 75 weeks brah