Shadow is the worst spec I have ever played

[Gestopft]

I never found the ramp-up to be particularly bad while leveling. Takes one mob to ramp up, and then you can multi-dot several for void form and melt them down. Demo is WAAAY more awkward in open world.

[gobio]

I actually think Shadow is fine, what isn't fine is that Shadow being the ONLY DPS spec for priest. Unlike Druid and Shaman who has their own ST / AE, Burst / Sustain DPS options.

[Ariss]

Let's just said Ive been maining shadow since TBC, raided and had active sub since then, but what they made to the spec in Legion eventually made me quit the game. I've honestly tried to get used to it, up to the Tomb of Sargeras, but then gave up. Every raid felt like I was going to a job I dont like.

[Jervaise]

I actually think Shadow is fine, what isn't fine is that Shadow being the ONLY DPS spec for priest. Unlike Druid and Shaman who has their own ST / AE, Burst / Sustain DPS options.

The way to tackle this was attained in WoD. Make the lvl100 talents gamechanging enough to be considered different specs on their own.

[Aggrodesiac]

The way to tackle this was attained in WoD. Make the lvl100 talents gamechanging enough to be considered different specs on their own.

While I agree this was a somewhat effective way to approach it, it still is a bummer having to use a talent row just to experience some variety in gameplay, whereas other DPS specs have the ability to change or adapt already established (and often times better designed) specs with those impactful talent rows.

[Kilee25]

Yes but another thing we learned from wod is that if we are given three game-changing play styles to choose from, they won’t do the legwork required to make each of them playable, and make the gear and talents mesh with the abilities. Internally, it seems they don’t have either the resources or the care to design around so many possibilities. That is why I think a 4th spec would probably be the best chance. Although if you look at other classes, historically some specs have remained completely dead spanning multiple expansions. So, I guess I‘m just really cynical and jaded at this point. I gave all the ducks I had left to give trying to support CoP in WoD.

[Jervaise]

While I agree this was a somewhat effective way to approach it, it still is a bummer having to use a talent row just to experience some variety in gameplay, whereas other DPS specs have the ability to change or adapt already established (and often times better designed) specs with those impactful talent rows.

True, I can't argue against that. However, I still believe it was an OK way to make the spec more versatile.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes but another thing we learned from wod is that if we are given three game-changing play styles to choose from, they won’t do the legwork required to make each of them playable, and make the gear and talents mesh with the abilities. Internally, it seems they don’t have either the resources or the care to design around so many possibilities. That is why I think a 4th spec would probably be the best chance. Although if you look at other classes, historically some specs have remained completely dead spanning multiple expansions. So, I guess I‘m just really cynical and jaded at this point. I gave all the ducks I had left to give trying to support CoP in WoD.

I always imagined priest specs to be aligned towards the gods they prey. Won't work of course - yet would be cool and add room for more specs.

[Aggrodesiac]

Yes but another thing we learned from wod is that if we are given three game-changing play styles to choose from, they won’t do the legwork required to make each of them playable, and make the gear and talents mesh with the abilities. Internally, it seems they don’t have either the resources or the care to design around so many possibilities. That is why I think a 4th spec would probably be the best chance. Although if you look at other classes, historically some specs have remained completely dead spanning multiple expansions. So, I guess I‘m just really cynical and jaded at this point. I gave all the ducks I had left to give trying to support CoP in WoD.

Couldn't agree more. Just because they attempted to give us that variety, doesn't mean it was done well. While I appreciate the effort (I guess?) from Blizz in WoD, but because those talents just weren't balanced or designed well enough to mesh with the rest of the kit, I still felt pigeonholed into playing CoP - and while some Shadow Priests have expressed that they enjoyed that playstyle, I personally was not a fan in the least. It was effective, so I played it, but I didn't have fun and ended up rolling Feral for most of WoD.

I also 100% agree that a 4th spec could potentially solve some of the major problems with Shadow Priest, both from a mechanics and a lore point of view. I won't hold my breath for it, but I will certainly rejoice if it ever happens.

[Dsc]

Let's just said Ive been maining shadow since TBC, raided and had active sub since then, but what they made to the spec in Legion eventually made me quit the game. I've honestly tried to get used to it, up to the Tomb of Sargeras, but then gave up. Every raid felt like I was going to a job I dont like.

Shadow feels the clunkiest it ever has.


For the record I LIKED our TBC dps and mana battery role. I also liked that breif time in wrath where DK's pestilence spread our devouring plague.
Then again I miss real talent trees. which we'll never see again.

For the record you don't want a 4th spec... it'll be some stupid monkish melee spec like other RPGs have and I think disc was supposed to originally.
What will happen is at times in the future It'll become the flavor of the month, "go to" spec and priests will end up standing in melee/fire doing melee damage, the exact reason we play a ranged caster and not a melee will be gone. Be careful of what you wish for...

[Aggrodesiac]

For the record you don't want a 4th spec... it'll be some stupid monkish melee spec like other RPGs have and I think disc was supposed to originally.
What will happen is at times in the future It'll become the flavor of the month, "go to" spec and priests will end up standing in melee/fire doing melee damage, the exact reason we play a ranged caster and not a melee will be gone. Be careful of what you wish for...

What makes you think it would be a melee spec? That makes very little sense to me... Priest in melee? I'm confused. I guess if the DPS spec for Monk didn't exist I could kind of see the logic behind some kind of "monk-esque" theme being applied to Priest, but that's still a real reach for me.

No, I think a 4th spec would allow a DPS priest to choose between something more DoT focused (Shadow Orbs, SW: Pain, Vamp Touch, Devouring Plague, etc, etc) and something more direct damage focused (Insanity generation, void form, etc). Sure, it's easy for me to say "oh yeah just make a 4th spec", but I think there's enough to pull from previous iterations of Shadow Priest to lay the groundwork for two distinct damage specs.

[Deleted]

What makes you think it would be a melee spec? That makes very little sense to me... Priest in melee? I'm confused. I guess if the DPS spec for Monk didn't exist I could kind of see the logic behind some kind of "monk-esque" theme being applied to Priest, but that's still a real reach for me.

No, I think a 4th spec would allow a DPS priest to choose between something more DoT focused (Shadow Orbs, SW: Pain, Vamp Touch, Devouring Plague, etc, etc) and something more direct damage focused (Insanity generation, void form, etc). Sure, it's easy for me to say "oh yeah just make a 4th spec", but I think there's enough to pull from previous iterations of Shadow Priest to lay the groundwork for two distinct damage specs.

It's often claimed these days that originally disc was a planned melee spec but was scrapped very early on, i do not remember any of it ever being even a thought at all myself but i have seen a lot of claims that it was the case. Inner fire is the popular one people use as an example claiming that it was originally going to be an attack power buff for priests (since melee) but most of their basis from what i can tell is that because inner fire was a self buff only rather than a buff for allies like in wc3. Truth be told i think it might even actually have gave attack power in the old days, i forget now since i only ever cared for the armor effect but it did give a bonus to something else.

Have no desire for a 4th spec, think it's a silly concept and should be kept to druids. I would however like to see all our lvl 100 talents being proper game changing talents. Things like CoP and gladiator stance were things that should have been promoted, they are how top tier talents should work, you're given a class toolkit and you select a top tier talent that defines how you play with that toolkit, unfortunately like kilee says, blizz showed a complete lack of ability to balance or even actually design this concept in wod, but none the less i absolutely loved CoP and want it back at all costs.

Off the top of the head and assuming we had shadow orbs back, proper talent trees (with some of our current ones baseline) and not relying on mandatory talents to actually make us a functioning spec:

-Cop - wod style with improvements, instant casts, has mind spike etc
Your Mind Spike, Mind Sear, Blackout and Shadow Word: Death deal 40% additional damage to targets not affected by your Shadow Word: Pain or Vampiric Touch. Also reduces the cooldown on Mind Blast by 3 sec and makes it instant cast.

Blackout, 3 Shadow orbs
Consumes all orbs as a big nuke (rather than the dp dot of wod) stunning your target for 3 seconds and turns your mindflay into mindsear for 5 seconds, targets permanently immune to stuns take 100% increased damage.
Mindblast slows your target by 30% for 2 seconds
Mindsear- Channeled dealing X (High damage) to all targets within 5 yards of your target, if no valid targets within 5 yards your target takes the full damage instead


-Devouring plague - A mechanic that turns us into a predominantly dot spec with ofcourse the beautiful devouring plague being reintroduced, mind blast would be relegated to a filler/dot spreader or something

Devouring plague, x dmg over y sec, consumes all shadow orbs, stacks up to 5 times, 1 stack per orb spent.
For 5 seconds after casting Devouring plague Mindflay turns into mindsear
Your dots do 50% more damage, Full duration mind flays generate 1 shadow orb
Your mindblast will spread your vampiric touch and shadow word pain to all targets within 8 yards for 50% of their max duration and refresh your targets to full duration.
Mindsear- Channeled dealing X (High damage) to all targets within 5 yards of your target, if no valid targets within 5 yards your target takes the full damage instead



-Void form - this garbage we have in legion for those people who want to continue to see our class be destroyed. Shadow orbs replaced with insanity
While in void form mindflay becomes mindsear
Mindsear- Channeled dealing X (High damage) to all targets within 5 yards of your target, if no valid targets within 5 yards your target takes the full damage instead



At least with that i could play and enjoy pvp with cop and raid with either of the 3

[Aggrodesiac]

It's often claimed these days that originally disc was a planned melee spec but was scrapped very early on, i do not remember any of it ever being even a thought at all myself but i have seen a lot of claims that it was the case. Inner fire is the popular one people use as an example claiming that it was originally going to be an attack power buff for priests (since melee) but most of their basis from what i can tell is that because inner fire was a self buff only rather than a buff for allies like in wc3. Truth be told i think it might even actually have gave attack power in the old days, i forget now since i only ever cared for the armor effect but it did give a bonus to something else.

Have no desire for a 4th spec, think it's a silly concept and should be kept to druids. I would however like to see all our lvl 100 talents being proper game changing talents. Things like CoP and gladiator stance were things that should have been promoted, they are how top tier talents should work, you're given a class toolkit and you select a top tier talent that defines how you play with that toolkit, unfortunately like kilee says, blizz showed a complete lack of ability to balance or even actually design this concept in wod, but none the less i absolutely loved CoP and want it back at all costs.

Off the top of the head and assuming we had shadow orbs back, proper talent trees (with some of our current ones baseline) and not relying on mandatory talents to actually make us a functioning spec:

Cop - wod style with improvements, instant casts, has mind spike etc
Devouring plague - A mechanic that turns us into a predominantly dot spec with ofcourse the beautiful devouring plague being reintroduced, mind blast would be relegated to a filler/dot spreader or something
Void form - this garbage we have in legion for those people who want to continue to see our class be destroyed. Shadow orbs replaced with insanity

at least with that i could play and enjoy pvp with cop and raid with either of the 3

I had completely forgotten about what Inner Fire might have been... Boy am I glad they never went through with all of that.

Why would a 4th spec be worse than forcing us to (for lack of a more eloquent way to put it) waste a talent row that gives us the illusion of gameplay decisions? At the end of the day (like with CoP in WoD), one of those three will be discovered as superior and cookie cutters will ensue. At least a fourth spec would have more potential for distinct and diverse gameplay mechanics - Shadow Priest would have the options for CoP playstyle, pure DoTs, Devouring plague, whatever, while a 4th spec would be all about the Void, insanity resource generation, maybe more of a single target focus, etc.

I see what you're saying, to a certain extent, and I know that my opinion is my opinion and the concept of a new spec is SUPER pie in the sky - but I honestly think forcing us into a gameplay decision at that last talent tier is a really crappy way to give us a pseudo decision on what kind of "spec" a Shadow Priest is. I would take a 4th spec any day of the week over that.

[Beckers]

Easy fix.. Void form should be a level 100 talent rather than baseline.

Have it be the "Raid Talent" and give us another option in that row for AoE or burst.

[Deleted]

I had completely forgotten about what Inner Fire might have been... Boy am I glad they never went through with all of that.

Why would a 4th spec be worse than forcing us to (for lack of a more eloquent way to put it) waste a talent row that gives us the illusion of gameplay decisions? At the end of the day (like with CoP in WoD), one of those three will be discovered as superior and cookie cutters will ensue. At least a fourth spec would have more potential for distinct and diverse gameplay mechanics - Shadow Priest would have the options for CoP playstyle, pure DoTs, Devouring plague, whatever, while a 4th spec would be all about the Void, insanity resource generation, maybe more of a single target focus, etc.

I see what you're saying, to a certain extent, and I know that my opinion is my opinion and the concept of a new spec is SUPER pie in the sky - but I honestly think forcing us into a gameplay decision at that last talent tier is a really crappy way to give us a pseudo decision on what kind of "spec" a Shadow Priest is. I would take a 4th spec any day of the week over that.

I want it to be the way that all classes work, i think having a talent steroid that empowers a certain playstyle would be far easier to balance and build upon rather than the multiple we have right now.

Every class has cookie cutter, it ALWAYS will have cookie cutter you cannot ever have a perfect balance where there is no cookie cutter, so rather than have an entire tree be cookie cutter why not just cut the losses and have 1 talent dedicated to a playstyle and allow the rest of the talents to be flavour talents that you personally want to use rather than be forced to use because that is it the aoe talent, that is the single target etc.
Talents in my opinion are supposed to be perks that compliment how you play, a form of customisation that makes you different to me even though we both play the same class, this is not the case when we both have the exact same tree, if we had gameplay steroid talents then we could still be the exact same, but you could also have better mobility than me while i could have better cc.

I don't know if that makes sense or would even ever work but i think if they went this route we could have talents be actual PERKS rather than what we have to select to do proper damage for whatever. Basically give us 6 talents with freedom to pick however we chose and have just 1 talent be the one that is mandatory for what we want to do.



Don't get me wrong though, Lore butchery aside, i would never be against a new void class being introduced that took this insanity crap away from us, i would very much welcome someone to take it, i personally really think demon hunters would be perfect to take the insanity mechanic. Demo warlocks pretending to be demon hunters had it first, then they took it from demo warlocks to give to shadow priests in the expansion they release demon hunters is mind boggling.
The current t21 demonic build is already a mini void form melee spec without any of the drawbacks we face, they just don't have an actual extender, its a fixed 8 second meta each time. But i think we are kinda bloated on classes and honestly history has shown that we are kinda bloated on specs too, there is always a pvp spec and a pve spec then that other spec that just sits there being pointless, sure sometimes there's a single target spec and an aoe spec for pve but thats really a pure dps class problem, we are hybrids, having a 4th spec that i had to switch to because shadow is doing terrible would defeat the entire purpose of why i made a priest, to be a shadow priest.

[Aggrodesiac]

I want it to be the way that all classes work, i think having a talent steroid that empowers a certain playstyle would be far easier to balance and build upon rather than the multiple we have right now.

Every class has cookie cutter, it ALWAYS will have cookie cutter you cannot ever have a perfect balance where there is no cookie cutter, so rather than have an entire tree be cookie cutter why not just cut the losses and have 1 talent dedicated to a playstyle and allow the rest of the talents to be flavour talents that you personally want to use rather than be forced to use because that is it the aoe talent, that is the single target etc.
Talents in my opinion are supposed to be perks that compliment how you play, a form of customisation that makes you different to me even though we both play the same class, this is not the case when we both have the exact same tree, if we had gameplay steroid talents then we could still be the exact same, but you could also have better mobility than me while i could have better cc.

I don't know if that makes sense or would even ever work but i think if they went this route we could have talents be actual PERKS rather than what we have to select to do proper damage for whatever. Basically give us 6 talents with freedom to pick however we chose and have just 1 talent be the one that is mandatory for what we want to do.

I absolutely agree with you that your idea would be far easier to balance and build around, no questions about it. I guess I'm just bitchy because I love being a Shadow Priest, but would also like a little bit more of the freedom that some of the 2-3 DPS classes have in regards to gameplay choices, viability in certain content, etc. Shadow feels like a spec that one tier could be really strong, but if it's not strong the next tier, oh well, enjoy being mediocre for several months. I don't have the audacity to think that my incredibly aspirational 4th spec idea would fix it, but maybe it'd be a bit better.

I am on board with what you're saying, certainly not saying it's wrong or a bad idea, and I'd take that over what we have now 100 times out of 100.

[Deleted]

I absolutely agree with you that your idea would be far easier to balance and build around, no questions about it. I guess I'm just bitchy because I love being a Shadow Priest, but would also like a little bit more of the freedom that some of the 2-3 DPS classes have in regards to gameplay choices, viability in certain content, etc. Shadow feels like a spec that one tier could be really strong, but if it's not strong the next tier, oh well, enjoy being mediocre for several
months. I don't have the audacity to think that my incredibly aspirational 4th spec idea would fix it, but maybe it'd be a bit better.

I am on board with what you're saying, certainly not saying it's wrong or a bad idea, and I'd take that over what we have now 100 times out of 100.

Thing is though, what my suggestion is doing is addressing your issue, cop (pseudo shadow mage) not performing best in pve? you have dp (a pseudo copy of affliction) to play with or tentacle garbage to play with, they are essentially 3 different classes in 1 spec all thanks to 1 talent row rather than needing 3 different specs.

Plus you got 6 other talent rows to pick from to further personalise your class.

[Aggrodesiac]

Thing is though, what my suggestion is doing is addressing your issue, cop (pseudo shadow mage) not performing best in pve? you have dp (a pseudo copy of affliction) to play with or tentacle garbage to play with, they are essentially 3 different classes in 1 spec all thanks to 1 talent row rather than needing 3 different specs.

Plus you got 6 other talent rows to pick from to further personalise your class.

Oh, I understand. My point was more that other DPS specs don't need to make that kind of choice to fully embrace different playstyles (not all of them are perfect, in fact none of them are, but some are better designed than others). Having a talent row be my "spec" means I essentially have one less talent row than other DPS do.

[Deleted]

Cata shadowpriest was Best :/

[Deleted]

Oh, I understand. My point was more that other DPS specs don't need to make that kind of choice to fully embrace different playstyles (not all of them are perfect, in fact none of them are, but some are better designed than others). Having a talent row be my "spec" means I essentially have one less talent row than other DPS do.

Like i said i want all classes to work this way but some may not fit the idea as well as shadow does.
Thats a price you pay for playing a class with 2 healer specs, druids are the same, some wont play range some wont play melee. You can't be a shadow priest if you aren't in shadow spec.

Also you do not have less talents than other classes, you have the same amount of talents.

You want to spec aoe
Current model = 7 talents spent on aoe build
My model = 1 talent spent on aoe build 6 on whatever you like
Both spend 7 talents. All classes have cookie cutter, all classes have mandatory talents, that's not less talents than others.
MM hunters don't lose a talent for picking lone wolf, they gained all the damage their pet would have done as a damage buff that they do instead. This is not -1 talent this is a buff because they now lose 0 damage from pets not attacking a target because they are running across the room to attack a new target.

Also, voidform aside, priests finally have a proper 3 spec theme, you have holy and shadow two opposing forces with discipline the balance of the two, a 4th spec is what? A different version of shadow?

[Aggrodesiac]

Like i said i want all classes to work this way but some may not fit the idea as well as shadow does.
Thats a price you pay for playing a class with 2 healer specs, druids are the same, some wont play range some wont play melee. You can't be a shadow priest if you aren't in shadow spec.

Also you do not have less talents than other classes, you have the same amount of talents.

You want to spec aoe
Current model = 7 talents spent on aoe build
My model = 1 talent spent on aoe build 6 on whatever you like
Both spend 7 talents. All classes have cookie cutter, all classes have mandatory talents, that's not less talents than others.
MM hunters don't lose a talent for picking lone wolf, they gained all the damage their pet would have done as a damage buff that they do instead. This is not -1 talent this is a buff because they now lose 0 damage from pets not attacking a target because they are running across the room to attack a new target.

Also, voidform aside, priests finally have a proper 3 spec theme, you have holy and shadow two opposing forces with discipline the balance of the two, a 4th spec is what? A different version of shadow?

I'll reiterate, I completely understand where you're coming from - I just don't want an entire talent row to dictate my spec. I want my spec to dictate my spec, and I want impactful talent choices that give different gameplay decisions that can be adjusted per fight, per raid, per dungeon, etc.

And in my mind the fourth spec would be Void/Insanity themed. There's Holy Priests (Obviously Holy themed, praying to the light, healer, etc), Shadow Priests (Shadow Damage, shadow magic, DoTs, Shadow Orbs, cleaving, AoE, multidotting, etc), and Void Priests (Praying to the Void, Old God themed, tentacles and Insanity and flaying the mind of its victims, more single target focused), with Discipline Priests maintaining the lore flavor of floating between the three Priest disciplines (healing through damage, can throw up some DoTs, but lore wise is the Priest that wants to heal and aid their party, but has perhaps forsaken the Light as the sole way to do so).

Again, this is all super aspirational, I don't believe any of this will happen, and I'll take any improvements I can get - and I believe your idea would be an improvement.