Does Horde have -any- relative power to the Alliance?

[TickTickTick]

Disclaimer: I'm an Alliance player, so I am biased.
Saurfang just shrugs off arrows in the cinematic is a prime example of Blizz giving orcs plot armor. Those three arrows should've left him bleeding out and dying, but I guess with the healing the way it is in WoW real life physics of fractured bones & muscles don't really apply.

Have you already forgotten that Genn has been shot by Sylvanas' cursed arrow right in the chest? Then he just crashed it and walked away. Apparently humans/worgens need only one lung and are resistant to death curses.

I will pretend to be shocked right now.

[Varitok]

The trolls haven't been decimated what we have seen on The isle of Thunder was a fraction of the empire, it has been retconed that only a part of their isle is sinking, Suramar did not loose most of its population.

The troll empires banded together as a last ditch attempt at achieveing greatness. Their civilizations are basically dead canonically until blizz ass pulls them coming back. Like they did with Zandalar sinking.

Suramar did so lose a ton of their fighting population. Either to us or demon corruption. Look at how many of them "revolted" with us, The alliance and the horde had to do 90% of the work.

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Have you already forgotten that Genn has been shot by Sylvanas' cursed arrow right in the chest? Then he just crashed it and walked away. Apparently humans/worgens need only one lung and are resistant to death curses.

I will pretend to be shocked right now.

He then spent a long time getting fully healed and wasn't seen until the end of the main story campaign (finishing all the zones). He was hold up in a tent on the edge of death. So no, it isn't equatable.

He also was only shot in the shoulder. Saurfang was boromir'd

[Rydanis]

Ah, that is absolutely the chest though. The pectorals aren't a part of the shoulder.

Edit: I mean just google, I'm not sure you quite understand the anatomy of where a person's lungs go. That shot looks like it's probably between the first and second ribs, which is absolutely lung territory. Also, Genn being shot completely unarmored vs. Saurfang being shot through heavy armor is not even a comparable situation.

[jackofwind]

Well yes, I know, but... okay? They take out a few enemies at a time, that doesn't seem like enough to be the deciding factor in the war. And "unstoppable" is pretty arguable, for all the reasons stated above.

Gameplay =/= Lore, once again. Look at what that laser does in the cinematics rather than the in-game mechanics.

[Rydanis]

Gameplay =/= Lore, once again. Look at what that laser does in the cinematics rather than the in-game mechanics.

Well I did though. In cinematic, it makes a small hole in a door as I said in my original post. Granted it's a very thick door, but is there something I'm missing here? Did I miss a cinematic where the Vindicaar takes out an entire army? It's a powerful ship, but again in that original post, these ships have such an incredibly high rate of failure and have been proven to be easy to disable and destroy. And that is lore based, not gameplay based.

[Al Gorefiend]

Well yes, I know, but... okay? They take out a few enemies at a time, that doesn't seem like enough to be the deciding factor in the war. And "unstoppable" is pretty arguable, for all the reasons stated above.

Well given it never has to physically dock and is well-guarded by an intergalactic army of light-wielding Draenei, I don't see how it could be easy to bring down.

I mean I don't doubt Blizzard will write a way for the Horde to destroy it, it's possible. It's just how is going to take some real finesse. Sabotaged by the inside and blown up by Goblins is possible. But atm as long is it's a factor Blizz can choose to ignore it or acknowledge it makes the Alliance far, far more powerful than the Horde.

[Rydanis]

Well given it never has to physically dock and is well-guarded by an intergalactic army of light-wielding Draenei, I don't see how it could be easy to bring down.

I mean I don't doubt Blizzard will write a way for the Horde to destroy it, it's possible. It's just how is going to take some real finesse. Sabotaged by the inside and blown up by Goblins is possible. But atm as long is it's a factor Blizz can choose to ignore it or acknowledge it makes the Alliance far, far more powerful than the Horde.

I'm referring to how easily almost ALL of the other ships have been brought down. These are not successful ships in lore, and we see even the Vindicaar's forces get wiped out by the first boss in Antorus. There is no reason Blizzard needed to do that for gameplay reasons, that is 100% lore flavor. There's also no reason Blizzard couldn't have the Vindicaar play an offensive part in Antorus, but it didn't. It was support, transport, and reinforcement. If anything I think Alliance are overestimating the Vindicaar's fire power and underestimating it's Star Trek style transportation, which WOULD be a boon to the Alliance.

[Toppy]

Well given it never has to physically dock and is well-guarded by an intergalactic army of light-wielding Draenei, I don't see how it could be easy to bring down.

I mean I don't doubt Blizzard will write a way for the Horde to destroy it, it's possible. It's just how is going to take some real finesse. Sabotaged by the inside and blown up by Goblins is possible. But atm as long is it's a factor Blizz can choose to ignore it or acknowledge it makes the Alliance far, far more powerful than the Horde.

Most of the lightforged and army of light was taken out prior to us going to argus, when we saved them they didn't have a ship and what we got were the remnants from a single ship.

[Mehrunes]

Realistically they wouldn't.

The majority of the orcs sided with Garrosh and lots of the goblins did as well. There hasn't been enough time to breed a new generation of orcs yet.

Except Blizzard explicitly said majority of Orcs sided with Vol'jin. And the Goblins that followed Garrosh weren't even from Bilgewater Cartel but from Blackfuse Company.

Blood elves(and high elves) are still going to Telgorus? Rift to learn about the void/become void elves. I'm sure most are doing it for the power but I assume some are also converting to the Alliance just cause they are sick of the shit with the Horde. And since they are banished from Silvermoon for even attempting to mess with the void realistically all priests that use shadow would be banished as well.

Void Elves are a handful. And they go into Void even deeper than Shadow Priests.

Alliance is much more numerous and much more powerful. They've always been, which is what drives the story that the Horde are constantly paranoid and formed out of survival and fear of an Alliance assault.

Without forsaken and blood elves bolstering the Horde, they realistically would never have stood a real chance. Only gameplay kept them alive long enough to reach a stalemate of strength around Cata/MoP, which ended with the Alliance once again having the upper hand.

Except just the internment camps Orcs were powerful enough to win against what remained of the Alliance after Alterac, Stromgarde, Gilneas and Quel'thalas stopped being a member. By the time Forsaken and Blood Elves joined the Horde the Alliance gained Night Elves (needed to be bailed out from the Horde demolishing them by EK part of Alliance multiple times) and Draenei (near extinction). While losing Dalaran (their source of good Mages), Lordaeron (the biggest nation) and Kul Tiras (sort of vanished away from the world stage).

[Toppy]

Except Blizzard explicitly said majority of Orcs sided with Vol'jin. And the Goblins that followed Garrosh weren't even from Bilgewater Cartel but from Blackfuse Company.




Void Elves are a handful. And they go into Void even deeper than Shadow Priests.




Except just the internment camps Orcs were powerful enough to win against what remained of the Alliance after Alterac, Stromgarde, Gilneas and Quel'thalas stopped being a member. By the time Forsaken and Blood Elves joined the Horde the Alliance gained Night Elves (needed to be bailed out from the Horde demolishing them by EK part of Alliance multiple times) and Draenei (near extinction).

Dont forget that by the end of WC3 humans were also near extinction, as were gnomes, and night elves too I think.

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Also Horde now has telemancy, which is apparently a far safer and more efficient form of long distance travel.

[endersblade]

I find it really funny how most of the people in this thread are just faction fanboys and can't take a step back and look at this without bias.

Or the ones that are just basically saying, "Horde wins because I said so! I don't need proof!" Just because the OP is obviously an Alliance player.

My 2c: JUST FROM WHAT I KNOW UP TO THIS POINT, caveats being I'm not a lore nerd, I haven't played in several months, but I HAVE seen the trailer, the ONLY thing saving the Horde is plot armor. My opinion is that if the Alliance really wanted to make a forced push, they would annihilate the horde because they have the manpower to attack several locations at once, which would spread the Horde even thinner than it already is.

[Mehrunes]

I think that we all know in the actual lore the alliance is vastly stronger than the Horde, simply because of numbers.

They also have laser-shooting spaceships.

Where are you people getting those numbers from? The biggest faction in Alliance is Stormwind and it was so immensely powerful it got almost destroyed by Gnolls and the ghost of Gurrubashi Empire shortly prior to the opening of the Dark Portal, then got flattened by the Old Horde.

well, this is the truth, expecially since wotlk and onward.

but i can't blame blizzard. they need to keep the game interesting. i would do the same if it was my game.

they just need to justify it better. instead of just presenting us with a bunch of huge expensive buildings and machinery
and having them expand and win pretty much anywhere they want, without explanation.
when the main reason why they are the bad guys is that they want resources, which they lack very much.

What do you mean "since WotLK onward"? You mean the WotLK that saw the development of the Blight completed? And the humiliation of Alliance navy at the hands of just Forsaken? And all Horde victories in Cata were explained. By these things called quests and books. Which kinda goes against the claim Horde should have lost from WotLK onward. And the Horde lacked lumber. They got lumber when they invaded Ashenvale.

Horde has a lot of plot armour for convenience of story.

Do explain.

Yeah these groups should be TINY in population, especially the Orcs and Darkspear. Even from a lore point of view it makes sense why half of the Horde seem to be blood elves.

Except Orcs have never been anywhere near TINY in terms of population. You're confusing them with Draenei, I think.

This 100%. Imagine if in the BfA cinematic, instead of Anduin turning the battle, the Vindicaar just appeared miles in the sky above everyone and blew the fuck out of the horde forces with laser beams. It would have been nuts.

You mean just like the Horde never utilized the Sunwell?

But that's always Alliance's thing to serve as plot armour for Horde. There's been multiple times that the Horde could have been wiped out easily by the Alliance but the Alliance just decide to leave them to it and go home or similar. I mean, it's pretty easy to argue that the whole current Horde vs Alliance war serves as a fable showing why you SHOULDN'T show mercy to your enemies.

The only time the Alliance could have wiped out a significant part of the Horde was the aftermath of the Second War. Which still isn't plot armor, because there was a logical course of events that led to them not wiping them out.

Suramar did so lose a ton of their fighting population. Either to us or demon corruption. Look at how many of them "revolted" with us, The alliance and the horde had to do 90% of the work.

If by 90% of the work you mean getting time-locked once they finally push into the city.

My 2c: JUST FROM WHAT I KNOW UP TO THIS POINT, caveats being I'm not a lore nerd, I haven't played in several months, but I HAVE seen the trailer, the ONLY thing saving the Horde is plot armor. My opinion is that if the Alliance really wanted to make a forced push, they would annihilate the horde because they have the manpower to attack several locations at once, which would spread the Horde even thinner than it already is.

Where did they get that manpower? And yes, I'm sure Alliance could just attack several locations at once and win. That's why when they did just that in Cata, while Horde was focusing their offensive on just border zones, the Alliance ended up losing a dozen zones. And even non-human members of 7h Legion. Because they, lo and behold, spread their forces too thin.

And really, Horde is saved by plot armor in the cinematic? You mean things like Sylvanas not preventing Anduin from healing his forces with her silence effect from banshee scream? Or her just not breaking the bones of the Alliance army with another effect of it? Or the Alliance not getting utterly fucked by the Blight, when we now know that Putress' attack at the Wrathgate killed around nine thousand soldiers with just a few barrels of a much older strain of Blight? Or, you know, the general premise of Alliance performing a naval invasion right in front of enemy capital which is complete suicide (especially since they have the weaker navy)? Yeah, look at all dat Horde plot armor /s

[Nuniqt]

@Mehrunes. Gettem! Tell those blues what for...

[Deadite]

They also have laser-shooting spaceships.

Yip. Check mate Horde!! It is not like we have just been attacked by fleets of starships that.... wait a second!

[Toppy]

Yip. Check mate Horde!! It is not like we have just been attacked by fleets of starships that.... wait a second!

Horde telemances a bomb on their ship.

Check and mate.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Pretty sure Saurfang was the leader of this little group called The Might of Kalimdor during one of the few occasions the Alliance and the Horde cooperated along with more leadership roles and commendations than anyone in the Alliance save for Turalyon if only because he has a thousand year advantage.

[MatthiasLehner]

Are people willfully ignoring the fact that Gnomes, almost single-handled the R&D department for the Alliance, and built basically all of the over technological machinery for the Alliance? They are the ones who's teaching Humans and Dwarves. Their flying machine, steam engines, mounts, weaponries and god damn flying fleets are all Gnome Engineering.

On top of that, they have literal aliens who can travel in light speed. How the hell is this ever fair, when it comes to technological development between team Red and Blue?

The Horde is turning into more magic(two remarkable magic user races) and nature(druid, shamans) friendly themes rather than steam and steel.

Yet the thing is, Humans are known as extremely fast learners when it comes to magic and all(look at the known mage figures and their races) plus Draenei are also known for very outstanding mages due to.. well, centuries and centuries of magic practices.

So I really get why Blizzard's giving races like the Nightborne and Zandalari to the Horde. The balance is quite tilted imo.

[mickybrighteyes]

Your special action bar abilities on Argus come from the Vindicaar. Light's Judgement, the huge AoE damage and stun? That is the orbital matrix of the Vindicaar firing down a laser beam.

There's no reason the Alliance wouldn't have access to it, I imagine after the Argus fight they flew it back to Exodar. So yeah the Alliance has an unstoppable laser firing spacecraft at their disposal.

Also if you AFK on the Vindicaar and watch outside the window, the Legion is constantly firing at it. It has a giant energy shield around it.

the thing is... we don't exactly see anyone having the means to maintain such a vessel. As for it being unstoppable? remember the exodar was on a similar level and was taken out by random unnamed spies. AND it's also a single vessel and can't be in two places at once.

[Nathreim]

The Horde hasn't been fighting as much as the Alliance in the last two wars. The Alliance took on the bulk of the fighting in WoD and Legion losing much of their military might. This has allowed the Horde to grow stronger while the Alliance grew weaker evening up the strength of the factions.

[mizeri]

horde has the knowledge and technology of 3 of the oldest civilizations on azaroth come BFA, silvermoon, suramar, and zandalar. and having the forsaken in the horde is having the same knowlege and tech as the humans, because you know they used to be humans.