Does Horde have -any- relative power to the Alliance?

[Shiny212]

At no point did the High Elves go anywhere "near extinction" during the Troll Wars. And humans joined the High Elves because they knew they'd be next if the Trolls defeated the Elves. And that was when the Troll empires were still strong. Meanwhile Stormwind, the strongest remaining human kingdom right now, almost got steamrolled by the Gurrubashi just a few decades ago, when the Gurrubashi were millennia past their glory days.

After years of continual besiegement by the trolls, the high elves, with defeat nearing, finally decided to seek the aid of the now-powerful humans of Arathor.

I dunno what defeat at the hands of the trolls looked like, but pretty sure it would've ended with the destruction of Quel'thalas and all its denizens. Furthermore nowhere is it stated the humans joined out of "fear" of being next, but rather as a tactical gain, and learning the arcane arts.

Seriously..? I would have loved if trolls actually did that, but... Seriously? At least try to read lore before posting this crap...

Read it and weep.

Even though the elves had at times treated the humans no better than they had the trolls, Thoradin saw the danger in allowing the elf civilization to fall, and agreed to an alliance. The elves would teach one hundred humans how to wield the arcane arts of magic, while the massive armies of Strom would mobilize and join the war against the trolls.

"Saw the danger of allowing ELF CIVILIZATION TO FALL".

The high elves realized they couldn't win the war alone, they were never close to extinction and started negotiations with the humans, who accepted and forced the high elves to teach them magic as a compensation. The humans alone back then were by all means were very weak, the only reason they could thrive at all was due to the fact that Quel'thalas was basically tanking the entire amani army, should they fall gone combined with the ambition to retake former troll lands the human days were numbered. Without the elves they had absolutely no chance of victory.

So far it seems Dalaran has not rejoined the Alliance ranks, so right now they are hopelessly outgunned in the Arcane department, with the horde having three magical powerhouses, Suramar, Zul'dazar and Silvermoon, even with Dalaran the horde should have the upper hand in terms of magic now.

Incorrect. The human armies were at that point very powerful. Re-check your sources, or re-examine the timeline. Humans were the prime ingredient in the downfall of the troll empires.

[rogueMatthias]

The Horde hasn't been fighting as much as the Alliance in the last two wars. The Alliance took on the bulk of the fighting in WoD and Legion losing much of their military might. This has allowed the Horde to grow stronger while the Alliance grew weaker evening up the strength of the factions.

Yeah but straight before that the Horde had a civil war which would have seriously hurt its numbers.

[Aquamonkey]

Draenei. Again, big and experienced due to age; There isn't much in ways of old tbc draenei lore to really quantify their power, but the lightforged literally have SPACE SHIPS AND LASER BEAMS. Again; Much like dwarves, how does this even compete vs literal spear-chuckers?

How experienced can they be if they start at level 1, learning how to hold a weapon?

[mickybrighteyes]

On top of that, they have literal aliens who can travel in light speed. How the hell is this ever fair, when it comes to technological development between team Red and Blue?

This isn't exactly all that interesting since the tech for light travel isn't really shown as something that is easily maintained. Hell the Draenei are mostly seen using salvaged material from something else rather than building shit.

Yet the thing is, Humans are known as extremely fast learners when it comes to magic and all(look at the known mage figures and their races) plus Draenei are also known for very outstanding mages due to.. well, centuries and centuries of magic practices.

Draenei are barely a step above night elves from what it seems. They seemed to haev swapped almost entirely to Priests and Paladin as a main thing due to how the light is centered on everything

[Toppy]

The Horde hasn't been fighting as much as the Alliance in the last two wars. The Alliance took on the bulk of the fighting in WoD and Legion losing much of their military might. This has allowed the Horde to grow stronger while the Alliance grew weaker evening up the strength of the factions.

Wow, thats just blatantly false but w/e.

[Captain Douchebag]

The Horde hasn't been fighting as much as the Alliance in the last two wars. The Alliance took on the bulk of the fighting in WoD and Legion losing much of their military might. This has allowed the Horde to grow stronger while the Alliance grew weaker evening up the strength of the factions.

And where exactly did you pull this from?

[mickybrighteyes]

The Horde hasn't been fighting as much as the Alliance in the last two wars. The Alliance took on the bulk of the fighting in WoD and Legion losing much of their military might. This has allowed the Horde to grow stronger while the Alliance grew weaker evening up the strength of the factions.

what?

As I understand neither faction really showed up in any numbers for WoD and both were relying heavily on local forces for much of the campaign.

[Ryneon]

This is literally biased become comprehension.

You should really read up on your lore.

[MarohDfc]

You can Screw the vindikaar since we as horde werd involved in repairing it so lore wise it would be possible to place an backdoor in this Ship to take it out if things get out of Hand sylvanas is smart enough to Think ahead

You can screw the Orgimmar since we as alliance were involved in the liberating of it so lore wise it would
be possible to place an backdoor in this city to take it out if things get out of hand varian is smart enough to think ahead.

[Kwento]

Read it and weep.

Even though the elves had at times treated the humans no better than they had the trolls, Thoradin saw the danger in allowing the elf civilization to fall, and agreed to an alliance. The elves would teach one hundred humans how to wield the arcane arts of magic, while the massive armies of Strom would mobilize and join the war against the trolls.

"Saw the danger of allowing ELF CIVILIZATION TO FALL".
.

What..? If he saw the danger in elven civilization potentially falling then good to be him, I do not see how that makes the “smoke at the borders of Quel’Thalas” (Chronicles, 130 page) an extinction of elves.

[Shiny212]

What..? If he saw the danger in elven civilization potentially falling then good to be him, I do not see how that makes the “smoke at the borders of Quel’Thalas” (Chronicles, 130 page) an extinction of elves.

Extinction of high elves. Sure they might not kill "every last one", but lower the numbers sufficiently that they won't be able to increase population and die out for sure. I don't see how you can interpret it any other way, unless you wanna nitpick the word "extinction". A troll armada wiping out every elf in Quel'thalas doesn't sound good.

Not sure if you misread me, I'm not saying the high elves were made extinct by the trolls, but that it was clear they would've been were it not for Strom intervention. Besides, Arthas saw to the extinction of high elves later on didn't he, without breaking much of a sweat one might add.

[Nathreim]

And where exactly did you pull this from?

At the start of WoD the Alliance lost one of their strongest military bases Netherguard Keep. The Alliance sent a real force into Draenor led by Admiral Taylor (who all died) the Horde did not send a similar force most of our troops are locals. They also committed more ships and gunships to the Broken Isles.

By the time BFA happens the fleet had shrank considerably the rest of which is destroyed by Princess Talanji during our escape. Thats why Jaina was sent to Kul'tiras.

[Toppy]

At the start of WoD the Alliance lost one of their strongest military bases Netherguard Keep. The Alliance sent a real force into Draenor led by Admiral Taylor (who all died) the Horde did not send a similar force most of our troops are locals. They also committed more ships and gunships to the Broken Isles.

By the time BFA happens the fleet had shrank considerably the rest of which is destroyed by Princess Talanji during our escape. Thats why Jaina was sent to Kul'tiras.

Oh, so out your ass, got it.

Because is distinctly remember Horde having notables, none local forces in WoD, and the entire point of Legion is that none of the factions are helping and the class orders are doing all the work

[Kwento]

Extinction of high elves. Sure they might not kill "every last one", but lower the numbers sufficiently that they won't be able to increase population and die out for sure. I don't see how you can interpret it any other way, unless you wanna nitpick the word "extinction". A troll armada wiping out every elf in Quel'thalas doesn't sound good.

Not sure if you misread me, I'm not saying the high elves were made extinct by the trolls, but that it was clear they would've been were it not for Strom intervention. Besides, Arthas saw to the extinction of high elves later on didn't he, without breaking much of a sweat one might add.

Missread you..?
You claimed that “ an army of angry forest trolls hunted the high elves to near extinction”. I didn’t missread you. You wrote this not as a possible outcome, not as a conclusion that Thoradin made, no.
At the time Thoradin made an agreement with the elves, the borders... BORDERS.. were taken. How is that an extinction of high elf population..?

[Magistrate]

That's true, but there's a lot fewer of them. And let's not forget that night elves are basically just bigger blood elves, when it comes to archery. Perhaps even magic. Come to think of it, there really weren't any memorable blood elves in the BfA cinematic, which is why my thoughts are a bit skewered against them. It will be nonetheless curious to see what becomes of Quel'Thalas, as it does feel like the alliance advancing that far north will put them in a bit of a predicament. -- assuming Blizz ever get off their asses and decide to do -anything new- with BC zones.

I don't want to turn this into a Blue elves vs. Red elves thread, but realistically speaking:

1) Archer comparison: I think this one is a pretty fair point as far as Night Elves vs. Blood Elves. Blood Elves do have a subfaction that focuses heavily on these arts, but their tradition is probably newer and was broken timeline wise during their period of traveling and exile until they settled. Also, objectively speaking, archery is far more important to Night Elves than Blood Elves on a representation level. The only exception I can really think of are Lorthemar and Sylvanas--Alleria was gone during the events that created the Blood Elves and besides the fact sided with the Alliance. Blood Elf representation as far as situations of Blood Elves vs. High Elves (Isle of Thunder, Suramar, etc.) isn't a good indication of the race's state since that representation is set up for gameplay and visual purposes and not really lore ones (same reason that me slaughtering Gilneans all expansion long at the Warden Towers doesn't mean they're almost extinct).

2) Mage comparison: Night Elves banned all arcane practice and study for thousands of years and exiled the High Elves that did all of this. Those High Elves either went back to the Alliance in the end or became the Blood Elves. Magically speaking, Blood Elves have the magical tradition that Night Elves already had before they banned it combined with centuries more of arcane insight and practice in an insular city much the same as Suramar, just far younger and with greater casualties. Additionally, High Elves haven't really had a central, sturdy, powerful place to study their magic since their racial separation from the Blood Elves--the Nightborne have had a culture that exclusively studies magic, uninterrupted, for as long as the entirety of the Night Elves and including, uninterrupted, the last 10,000 years in the same rigid intensity, traditions, etc. Horde wise, both magical races also have had the benefit of a single, unimaginably powerful source for thousands of years while the Night Elves basically just had disparate moon wells.

[Shiny212]

Missread you..?
You claimed that “ an army of angry forest trolls hunted the high elves to near extinction”. I didn’t missread you. You wrote this not as a possible outcome, not as a conclusion that Thoradin made, no.

I think you need to consider a spellcheck since I don't understand a word you just said. The forest trolls did hunt the high elves to near extinction, as I just demonstrated.

[Kwento]

I think you need to consider a spellcheck since I don't understand a word you just said. The forest trolls did hunt the high elves to near extinction, as I just demonstrated.

You didn’t demonstrate anything but a possible estimation made by a human king based out of the reports that were given to him at the time. At the time the only part of Quel’Thalas that was taken were its borders. If you seriously think that high elves lived solely at their own borders, I don’t see any point in trying to argue with you any further.

[rogueMatthias]

I think the issue when trying to discuss power balance based on actual numbers and technology is that the numbers don't really make any sense. It's a game, so they have to be made kind of even but even most lore would imply otherwise.

The Horde, from a lore point of view, are meant to be the outnumbered outsiders that grouped together for their own protection.

Orcs - The Orcs in Azeroth are the ones that were left over and not killed from the invasions. They had to use subterfuge to free the Orcs from internment camps as they didn't have the numbers to attack them dead on. They then stole some ships from the Alliance to head to Kalimdor. Even if they stole hundreds of ships, that still really limits the numbers there could have been. Since then they've had a civil war (in which a large percentage of Orcs sided with Garrosh) so the Orc population will be even lower.

Elves - The elves were being decimated by troll tribes, and that's BEFORE the scourge wiped out 90% of the population

Darkspear Tribe - Stated to have a very low population. They were almost destroyed by Murlocs before Thrall found them.

Bloodhoof tribe - Again, were almost driven to extinction by centaurs before finding Thrall

Bilgewater Cartel - Though they were the most populous of the Goblin catels, most were killed when Kezan was destroyed and the survivors who joined the Horde were the ones on Gallywix's private yacht. Granted, there were ilkely other boats that escaped, but there seem to be more Goblins in Azshara and the slums than there were in Kezan :/

Forsaken - It's difficult to work out how much of Lordaearon became part of the Forsaken. We know there were a lot of survivors that escaped. Even Theramore was mostly created by refugees who'd left there. A lot of those raised would have also left with the scourge before Sylvanas returned to help free them from his grip.

There;s nothing here which would say that the Horde could even compete with the numbers from the humans and dwarves alone, which both have pretty huge and sprawling populations, even after many military defeats. We know, as an example, that Stormwind lost over 50'000 fighting the Lich King, and that barely seems to have touched their numbers.

[Darktbs]

He then spent a long time getting fully healed and wasn't seen until the end of the main story campaign (finishing all the zones). He was hold up in a tent on the edge of death. So no, it isn't equatable.

He also was only shot in the shoulder. Saurfang was boromir'd

Just adding one thing.
While yes, Saurfang was shot in the chest he had armor up while Genn didn't and the healing part shouldnt be considered because both were healed(Soldier went to his help when Saurfang was injured and later on he was fine.)

[crakerjack]

Why would machinery every be a threat in a world full of magic? "Oh nooo, not a tank!" *Proceeds to drive a huge shard of ice through it*