Demo Changes!

[alexchaos]

@Lucrece Really depends on if Aff's damage continues to be so heavily weighted towards UA, as having to move during the UA dump would be similarly catastrophic. Potentially even worse.

It is better in that we have *some* instant casts though.

I havn't played the new demo yet but I'm pretty sure that having molten core procs will be a huge deal for movement intense fights.

[pseudodraco]

Why cast fire when I have imps to do that for me?

How do I make a quote part of my signature thing? I'm a demo main and I want that now

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I'm unsure to be honest. I prefer more dotplay rather than just dotting. Affliction now (haven't been playing close attn to alpha builds) feels like just dotting rather than dotplay. dotplay should work off dots, longer dots that buff up other attacks, or affect your fight situation in some other way. it's not quite being typed out liek i want it, but close ish

[Deleted]

Way less clumsy, however. Easier to optimize than having 10+ imps, dogs, felguard+ service felguard and doom guard all empowered to align with TKC.

Its not like though that demo lost this concept atm. Demon commander works in the same way on a 1min cd (not sure about the cd time) instead of TKC at 45sec..so again you ll have to line up the pets you mentioned. The big difference is that its less clumsy now because you dont also have to empower anymore. The problem imo is that at the moment demo lost burst potential without losing setup ramp time (ie you still have to ramp up but you dont get the good burst "reward" you ll just do bigger sustained dmg which also must be balanced around the aoe demon commander gives. They wont just tune him to oneshot everything around him).

On the other hand they gave affliction a burst talent which frankly i cant see how they will balance it correctly. It wont remain like this for sure. Affliction allready has ua stacking as a burst move and can multi dot everything without any restrictions apart from globals and also has a dot spread with SoC. Having also a "oneshot" move (because atm the dmg of deathbolt is that absurd) seems to much. The main problem with it is that thedamage depends on the dots which leads to: if dots do meaningfull dmg and UA is kept a "burst" dot then deathbolt becomes rediculous, If they decide to keep it as it is, then that will lead most likely to nerf the dots and cripple the spec (which i dont see it happening).
At the moment affliction can burst with deathbolt after 3 globals (which it can spend while moving) and 2 ua casts for the amount of allmost 2 chaos bolts while also chaining uas to the target with full dots..add to that any dmg procs or if they give affliction a dmg cooldown and it can get easy out of hand. The only solution i can think of tbh is if they change deathbolt to be more reliant to Agony for its dmg and/or change Agony dmg to do less at low stacks and ramp up more progressively.

[garonne]

Its not like though that demo lost this concept atm. Demon commander works in the same way on a 1min cd (not sure about the cd time) instead of TKC at 45sec..so again you ll have to line up the pets you mentioned. The big difference is that its less clumsy now because you dont also have to empower anymore. The problem imo is that at the moment demo lost burst potential without losing setup ramp time (ie you still have to ramp up but you dont get the good burst "reward" you ll just do bigger sustained dmg which also must be balanced around the aoe demon commander gives. They wont just tune him to oneshot everything around him).

On the other hand they gave affliction a burst talent which frankly i cant see how they will balance it correctly. It wont remain like this for sure. Affliction allready has ua stacking as a burst move and can multi dot everything without any restrictions apart from globals and also has a dot spread with SoC. Having also a "oneshot" move (because atm the dmg of deathbolt is that absurd) seems to much. The main problem with it is that thedamage depends on the dots which leads to: if dots do meaningfull dmg and UA is kept a "burst" dot then deathbolt becomes rediculous, If they decide to keep it as it is, then that will lead most likely to nerf the dots and cripple the spec (which i dont see it happening).
At the moment affliction can burst with deathbolt after 3 globals (which it can spend while moving) and 2 ua casts for the amount of allmost 2 chaos bolts while also chaining uas to the target with full dots..add to that any dmg procs or if they give affliction a dmg cooldown and it can get easy out of hand. The only solution i can think of tbh is if they change deathbolt to be more reliant to Agony for its dmg and/or change Agony dmg to do less at low stacks and ramp up more progressively.

1.) Demo didnt lose burst, the burst is just shifted elsewhere (we may even have gained a higher burst). The commander makes your demons do 15% more damage and last 15 secs longer. If the demons are still doing around 65-70% of our damage then during that 15-27 sec window every 1.5 min we'll have burst. Not to mention, when they fix nether portal thats also another burst talent (along with consumption). Oh and our mastery isn't implemented which will most likely either buff our pets/guardians, the demon commander or the buff the demon commander gives.

2.) deathbolt isn't going to be more complicated to balance than TKC Because TKC had a higher burst potential and only 1 cap, GCDs. All they'll have to do is balance the percentage of damage and/or increase the cd of Deathbolt. What deathbolt does tho, is make haste a higher priority but only so much as you have a cap of 5 UA's on a target. With TKC, you could have out your Doomguard, 2 dogs and 2 imps, Service: felguard and as many imps as you can fit in that window to get the highest possible TKC. With so many moving parts and the fact that this wont happen every time, you have to balance around the average.

[Deleted]

@garonne 1)By burst i meant mainly for target switching. Since your summons cant change target it doesnt matter how many you have before the priority adds spawn or how much dmg they do because they wont attack the target you want. So you pretty much will have to start from zero probably with nether portal on the new target then more imp/dog summons and then demon commander to start doing dmg on the priority add. Thats to much time to be called burst and the extended duration on the summons wont matter much probably for the new add because it will have to die way before their full duration.

Also the new implosion does amplified dmg depending on the energy of the imps if they hit less than 3 targets (ie the sooner you implode the more dmg). They seem to promote its usage for burst which, depending on tuning, may lead to make demon commander unfit for on demand burst since you are gonna lose the imps aka their extended duration and damage.

2)I am not sure if mastery or haste will give more benefit, thats for math to say. The UA cap doesnt matter nor does it limit deathbolt, because you dont want to stak as many UAs as you can. More casting on uas= more time to cast deathbolt while the rest of your dots are ticking = less dmg contribution from the rest of the dots and the earlier UAs. Example: at the moment if you have a 15stak agony+ corruption + siphon life on the target : casting 2 UAs and then deathbolt gives more dmg than casting 4UAs and then deathbolt (because the other dots have less dmg left). So while ofc the sweetspot will change probably depending on haste/mastery lvls it isnt the same at all as TKC.
TKC its much more simple, the moment you cast a 12sec summon you fit as much summons as you can in the 12sec window and cast it. So tthere only haste plays role. Deathbolt gets benefit from Mastery:Because it buffs dots which translate to deathbolt dmg, Haste:because faster dot application and casting times which will move the optimal time to cast deathbolt with more UAs on , and also Haste again : because extra ticks on each dot which will lead to even more dmg contribution to deathbolt. The scaling with better gear will be insane and will need constant rebalance in every patch (And we allready have an insane scaling example with the affliction artifact in legion).

[AwkwardSquirtle]

How do I make a quote part of my signature thing? I'm a demo main and I want that now

Just copy the formatting that comes up when you press quote to the signature customisation bit of your profile.

[garonne]

@garonne 1)By burst i meant mainly for target switching. Since your summons cant change target it doesnt matter how many you have before the priority adds spawn or how much dmg they do because they wont attack the target you want. So you pretty much will have to start from zero probably with nether portal on the new target then more imp/dog summons and then demon commander to start doing dmg on the priority add. Thats to much time to be called burst and the extended duration on the summons wont matter much probably for the new add because it will have to die way before their full duration.

Also the new implosion does amplified dmg depending on the energy of the imps if they hit less than 3 targets (ie the sooner you implode the more dmg). They seem to promote its usage for burst which, depending on tuning, may lead to make demon commander unfit for on demand burst since you are gonna lose the imps aka their extended duration and damage.

if you're talking about target swapping, idk how that'll turn out as it all depends on balancing. however, we have options that may fill that mold.

As you've pointed out about implosion, if the imps are targetting another mob and you need to switch mobs, implosion the new target and all (maybe some) of the damage they have left will be transfered to the new add.
OR
if you have the power siphon talent, kill 2 imps for the MC proc. implosion the new target to transfer the rest of the imps damage to new target, blow up the new target with Demonbolt and back into regular rotation.
OR
We have service and vilefiend as pet options that are on a cd. Service is kinda long so it may not be up for all target swaps but it can help, and it depends on how strong the vilefiend is but with the lower cd he can be up when we need extra damage on the swapped target.
OR
Our main pet will swap to what we're attacking. with the combo of Demonic Strength and Fel Strike, you can swap you main pet over with his damage increase and fel strike does some decent damage, implosion and back to regular rotation.

options are available, and ofcourse it depends on the balancing of these spells/pets but the options are there.

as far as the commander and the imps doing more damage with energy, its possible when the commander is summoned he gives the imps/pets an extra bar or something (behind the scenes) that affords them that extra 15 secs of time. This is just an assumption on how it could work but once we get more info we'll find out. doubt they'll make implosion viable for a single target spec (for long at least).

2.) I think my arguments may have been wrong as i'm having a discrepancy with how haste works in my head, however, my point still remains that i dont think it'll be harder to balance. bc the spell is focused on a % of the dots and has a cd, the easier options to balance the spell if its too high or too low is to reduce/increase the percentage and increase/decrease the cd to balance out its usage.

[Deleted]

good points. About haste it works like this: It gives you more ticks in the set period of time. So lets say a dot does 10 ticks in 24 sec (random example), if you get x amount of haste it will do 12 ticks in the 24 sec.Also the calculation is dynamic(not sure if its the right word) meaning for example : if 1000haste gives you 10 ticks and 2000haste 11 ticks
then if you have 1500 haste then you ll get 10,5 ticks etc. Again the numbers are totally random and simplified but i hope it makes sence.

Deathbolt is focused on a % of the remaining dots dmg. thats why you dont cast as many UAs as you can, because as you cast more and more your previous dots are losing dmg.There is a sweetspot depending on a lot of things. And obviously you are right it can be balanced accordingly to not be op, but that doesnt change the scaling problem. If it starts balanced doing good burst but not op at the start of a new raid tier then when ppl get access to the mythic gear of said tier it will stat being absurd dmg. The only reason i mention all of this is because i allready expect affl to be the king of multitargeting with mutidot, if it also is the a spec with the best burst of the locks specs (With fast setup too) where does that leave destro..or demo? personally i dont want another expansion that after we get some gear affliction scaling will overshadow everything.

[garonne]

good points. About haste it works like this: It gives you more ticks in the set period of time. So lets say a dot does 10 ticks in 24 sec (random example), if you get x amount of haste it will do 12 ticks in the 24 sec.Also the calculation is dynamic(not sure if its the right word) meaning for example : if 1000haste gives you 10 ticks and 2000haste 11 ticks
then if you have 1500 haste then you ll get 10,5 ticks etc. Again the numbers are totally random and simplified but i hope it makes sence.

Deathbolt is focused on a % of the remaining dots dmg. thats why you dont cast as many UAs as you can, because as you cast more and more your previous dots are losing dmg.There is a sweetspot depending on a lot of things. And obviously you are right it can be balanced accordingly to not be op, but that doesnt change the scaling problem. If it starts balanced doing good burst but not op at the start of a new raid tier then when ppl get access to the mythic gear of said tier it will stat being absurd dmg. The only reason i mention all of this is because i allready expect affl to be the king of multitargeting with mutidot, if it also is the a spec with the best burst of the locks specs (With fast setup too) where does that leave destro..or demo? personally i dont want another expansion that after we get some gear affliction scaling will overshadow everything.

thanks for the info on haste, but i actually knew that part. What i was confused about was the partial ticks and where they lie.

we've come to an agreement that it can be balanced so i won't argue that but with your last point about being the best burst, we can only hope its not and wait on balance.
imo, with the info about cleave/2 targets being restricted to certain specs, destro will have its place to shine there. and with affliction damage in dots being completely shifted to dots (no drain soul for extra dot ticks or such) to balance for multi target they'll probably have to make it weaker on single target. because affliction and destro already have a psuedo role, it should mean that demo should hold that single target/bursty spec model.

question is, who's gonna hold the aoe model? especially for mythic+ cause aff's aoe seems gutted, destro is meh and demo remains to be seen. (affliction may hold it because Seed of Corruption is spammable with no shard cost)

[Deleted]

If we are talking mythic+ style aoe i think mechanicwise destro is just perfect. Between CDF, cataclysm, RoF and even Hellfire if you need sustained aoe while the pack moves (its wierd to be melee range but who knows) i think it has the best tools and many options for it to adapt(easy setup too). Also with lots of adds there is the new(old?) shadowburn which now can act as a finisher with havoc etc since it doesnt replace conflag anymore and can get resets while generating shards. Or maybe i am just excited for destro.

[Deleted]

What I don't understand is why Blizzard doesn't just add a new ability that makes all your demons attack your target? Is that not possible or what? I mean it's a no brainer.

[rhorle]

What I don't understand is why Blizzard doesn't just add a new ability that makes all your demons attack your target? Is that not possible or what? I mean it's a no brainer.

Probably for the same reason why they got rid of Soul Swap. I see the reasoning both for and against it. Demonic Consumption sort of fills this roll though. Instead of switching the DPS it allows us to empower the commander with our imps. Though it would be nice if it helped generate shards instead or in addition to "empower commander".

[Walrock]

What I don't understand is why Blizzard doesn't just add a new ability that makes all your demons attack your target? Is that not possible or what? I mean it's a no brainer.

My guess is that they want to keep it simple for the "casual" players.
Giving us option means they need to balance around it and since options often make things more complex, if you want to perform at a high level, they rather keep them at a minimum.

Sadly, that's seem to be the new design route since the end of MoP.

At the end of the day I don't really care what they do, all I want is to play my whole class instead of just one spec and hope they get the talents right.
Let me master my class, by being good at all specs and so armed for every situation to be a performer.
And for the love of god don't make every spec have their own stat that you need to stack to perform good, make it like Destro is right now, you need a healthy balance.

[Deleted]

The existing pet AI will remain an albatross around demo's neck when it comes to target switching. The majority of pets are of the guardian type and this effectivel ymakes them non-transferrable dots, which means that demo will retain it's huge ramp disadvantage in a game that is increasingly centred around a fast pace, which means that classes with instant, front-loaded damage will always tend to do better.

Demo is really an interation of affliction; the pets are just dots.

It means that outside of raids and high keys, both aff and demo will do comparatively poorly because everything will die before the higher levels of sustanied damage can mitigate the ramp. And that's before all the rivers of tears from those other classes moaning about how unfair it is that demo and aff have high damage levels in harder content where everything no longer dies when you breathe at it.

Before anyone jumps in and says who cares it's worth keeping in mind that lower key dungeons and non-raid content is what a majority of players experience. Heroic and mythic raiding are minority content.

[Lucrece]

I don't like the demon army spec at all.

It was perfectly fine with the fel guard (which should be a fel lord), and we'd summon extra strong demons like the jailor, call on a nathrezim plague swarm for a cd, call down fel dominators (which the current demon commander is), give us back the deathglare.

Keep the imps marginalized to bonus damage. It's fucking atrocious that for a Netherlord all we are is a glorified imp mother with a couple of hounds and now a few splattering bats.

Really awful design. The power should still be gathered on the warlock himself, and it pisses me off to no end they removed soulfire for what I suspect is not wanting to have more visual updates on their plate, as I'm not seeing a demonbolt updated to include green fire and I want the green fire quest to affect more than just imp firebolts.

[Deleted]

I don't like the demon army spec at all.

It was perfectly fine with the fel guard (which should be a fel lord), and we'd summon extra strong demons like the jailor, call on a nathrezim plague swarm for a cd, call down fel dominators (which the current demon commander is), give us back the deathglare.

Keep the imps marginalized to bonus damage. It's fucking atrocious that for a Netherlord all we are is a glorified imp mother with a couple of hounds and now a few splattering bats.

Really awful design. The power should still be gathered on the warlock himself, and it pisses me off to no end they removed soulfire for what I suspect is not wanting to have more visual updates on their plate, as I'm not seeing a demonbolt updated to include green fire and I want the green fire quest to affect more than just imp firebolts.

Aren't those always green? Pretty sure green fire has no effect whatsoever for Demo/Affli except Burning Rush.

How much work is it to change a spell's color anyway?

[FelPlague]

Demonbolt is more uniquely Demo and fits the flavor of throwing demon essences at your foe. Soulfire used to be a big Destro nuke before Mists, so going back to that also fits. I think it's a fine solution.

Soulfite was actually a demonology spell before mop. Yes it was destroyed, but so was shadowbolt, as were all the damage spells...
But it was demonoly spell, all of its talents were in demo, molten fury, decimation.

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And yeah I'm fucking pissed. I was excited for demo to finally have soulfire again, and to have some green fire spells back.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Soulfite was actually a demonology spell before mop. Yes it was destroyed, but so was shadowbolt, as were all the damage spells...
But it was demonoly spell, all of its talents were in demo, molten fury, decimation.

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And yeah I'm fucking pissed. I was excited for demo to finally have soulfire again, and to have some green fire spells back.

Some googling indicates that Destro also had Improved Soulfire. It was decidedly a warlock spell, not a demonology spell. I'd be fine with having it back, but I think Demonbolt just works a bit better in that role.

[FelPlague]

Some googling indicates that Destro also had Improved Soulfire. It was decidedly a warlock spell, not a demonology spell. I'd be fine with having it back, but I think Demonbolt just works a bit better in that role.

And demonology has molten fury that buffed immolate and incinerate. Therefore they are also demo spells right?
Yes in cataclysm there was one talent that buffed soul fire. But they only used it for the rebuff it gave. But for most of soulfires life it was used in demo as their heavy hitter.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

And demonology has molten fury that buffed immolate and incinerate. Therefore they are also demo spells right?
Yes in cataclysm there was one talent that buffed soul fire. But they only used it for the rebuff it gave. But for most of soulfires life it was used in demo as their heavy hitter.

I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was a warlock spell.