About the "Desolate Council"

[JustRob]

Sylvanas clearly isn't pleased with them, and they formed without her consent. So why doesn't she just kill them off? I thought the "government" in Undercity was pretty much "You do what Sylvanas says or you die". So isn't this "Desolate Council" a clear usurpation of power? Basically a coup d'etat? What happened? Did a couple of random Forsaken come together and go "Well, Sylvanas hasn't been here for a couple of weeks now, let's take over as rulers of this city"?

I'm honestly surprised she isn't acting on this. You might say "But the people of Undercity would not condone her killing the Desolate Council", but why not? I believe the rules are very clearly explained when a new Forsaken is created. You either follow Sylvanas, or you fuck off. And if you try anything to hinder the Forsaken in any way, you die.

[Venziir]

Sylvanas clearly isn't pleased with them, and they formed without her consent. So why doesn't she just kill them off? I thought the "government" in Undercity was pretty much "You do what Sylvanas says or you die". So isn't this "Desolate Council" a clear usurpation of power? Basically a coup d'etat? What happened? Did a couple of random Forsaken come together and go "Well, Sylvanas hasn't been here for a couple of weeks now, let's take over as rulers of this city"?

I'm honestly surprised she isn't acting on this. You might say "But the people of Undercity would not condone her killing the Desolate Council", but why not? I believe the rules are very clearly explained when a new Forsaken is created. You either follow Sylvanas, or you fuck off. And if you try anything to hinder the Forsaken in any way, you die.

She is acting on it. There's an entire book coming out soon'ish about it.

[Khaza-R]

Sylvanas lost her tyrannical side after WotLK when her purpose shifted from revenge to protecting the Forsaken

No reason she would try to destroy the Desolate Council unless they attempt to overthrow her like Putress

[Aucald]

Contrary to popular belief, Sylvanas doesn't rule as a complete tyrant - though neither would I call her a benevolent dictator. Sylvanas' rule is essentially achieved through a cult of personality, the Forsaken love her because she freed them from the shackles of the Lich King; and the things she does that might given individual Forsaken pause is generally washed away in the flood of popular support she receives. Sylvanas rewards this loyalty by giving the impression to the Forsaken that they are always foremost in her plans - critically important to a race of people who feel ostracized and roundly hated because of their thematic nearness to the Scourge.

Sylvanas' ascent to Warchief has, unfortunately for her, put her in a position where she can no longer espouse a "Forsaken above all" sentiment so easily and the Forsaken seem to be growing increasingly aware of it. As such, the power of her cult of personality has lessened and given rise to a new faction in opposition to her (to some degree), probably composed of a core of the same Forsaken above who were given pause by Sylvanas' previous actions. Sylvanas can't silence this new Desolate Council now without revealing her hand and likely galvanizing further support against her - she either has to defeat their ideas in the political sense, or she has to arrange an end for them that isn't obviously her doing (to avoid making them martyrs for their cause).

The upcoming "Before the Storm" novel will likely cover these events in depth.

[JustRob]

The entire shtick with forsaken is their free will. Sure, Sylvanas is the absolute ruler, but if she actively and openly retaliated against the council she would look like a hypocrite by rejecting the very idea of her people's existence.

As far as I know, they’re allowed to be free (see Lilian Voss) but then they’re on their own. If they wanna be part of the Forsaken, they have to do what Sylvanas says.

[FelPlague]

Sylvanas clearly isn't pleased with them, and they formed without her consent. So why doesn't she just kill them off? I thought the "government" in Undercity was pretty much "You do what Sylvanas says or you die". So isn't this "Desolate Council" a clear usurpation of power? Basically a coup d'etat? What happened? Did a couple of random Forsaken come together and go "Well, Sylvanas hasn't been here for a couple of weeks now, let's take over as rulers of this city"?

I'm honestly surprised she isn't acting on this. You might say "But the people of Undercity would not condone her killing the Desolate Council", but why not? I believe the rules are very clearly explained when a new Forsaken is created. You either follow Sylvanas, or you fuck off. And if you try anything to hinder the Forsaken in any way, you die.

What this dude says

The entire shtick with forsaken is their free will. Sure, Sylvanas is the absolute ruler, but if she actively and openly retaliated against the council she would look like a hypocrite by rejecting the very idea of her people's existence.

plus put this in lore forums please, this is lore.

[cparle87]

Dude, there's a separate forum for this lore crap.

*looks up at the forum header* Mmo-champs > forum > world of warcraft > lore.*

What seems to be your problem again?

[omeomorfismo]

Sylvanas clearly isn't pleased with them

that's false.

[Schattenlied]

Sylvanas clearly isn't pleased with them, and they formed without her consent. So why doesn't she just kill them off?

Because the rest of the forsaken would likely turn on her if she did that. Pretty sure someone like Saurfang, who Sylvanas is already wary of, and knows would challenge her, and she knows could stand a decent chance of killing her, if she did something he considered dishonorable, would not be pleased with her murdering a bunch of people who are just trying to keep things running in her absence.

I thought the "government" in Undercity was pretty much "You do what Sylvanas says or you die". So isn't this "Desolate Council" a clear usurpation of power? Basically a coup d'etat? What happened? Did a couple of random Forsaken come together and go "Well, Sylvanas hasn't been here for a couple of weeks now, let's take over as rulers of this city"?

No, she's been gone for well over a year at this point. In that time no one has been there to run the city, to see to the needs of the populace. The group formed to keep the city from falling into disorder in her absence, not to "steal power".

You either follow Sylvanas, or you fuck off.

Have the Desolate council taken the Undercity and declaired they are leaving the Horde? No. They are still following Sylvanas, she is their Warchief, but,, well, she is the Warchief now, she doesn't have time to run the whole Horde and run the Undercity at the same time, if she did, the members of the Desolate Council would have never felt the need to create the council in the first place.

[MrLordDariusCrowley]

that's false.

Nathanos, ever patient, waited for her orders. He would obey them, she knew. She could, right now, order a group of any combination of non-Forsaken Horde warriors to march on the Undercity and seize the members of this ungrateful council. But even as she had the satisfying thought, she knew it would be unwise. She needed to know more - much more - before she could act.

Theron inclined his head. He would serve at least for the moment. No one for speeches, Sylvanas merely inclined her own head and turned to the group of Forsaken. They stood, patiently as always. At least here in the capital city, they were her people - no defectors to a self-pityingly named Desolate Council.

Sylvanas obviously isn't very pleased by the Desolate Council disagreeing with the direction she is taking them

"Not all of them desire for themselves what you desire for them, my queen. Many on the Desolate Council harbor deep reservations." His face, still that of a dead man but better preserved due to an elaborate ritual she had ordered performed, twisted in a smile. "This is the peril you created when you gave them free will. They are now free to disagree."

Source: http://www.wowhead.com/news=275306/b...mpler-spoilers

[omeomorfismo]

Sylvanas obviously isn't very pleased by the Desolate Council disagreeing with the direction she is taking them



Source: http://www.wowhead.com/news=275306/b...mpler-spoilers

she is displeased by the ones that wont forsaken preservation, not the council

Ah, I see. An interim organization. That is ... not unreasonable.

[MrLordDariusCrowley]

she is displeased by the ones that wont forsaken preservation, not the council

That was her initial impression, until she found out that many of the Councils members appear to hold reservations towards her more "Lich Kingy" tendencies, otherwise know as "preserving her species".

After that she is very clearly displeased, even referring to the members of the council as defectors, seemingly making no distinction between the members that don't seem to disagree with her and those that do.

[ello]

Sylvanas clearly isn't pleased with them, and they formed without her consent. So why doesn't she just kill them off? I thought the "government" in Undercity was pretty much "You do what Sylvanas says or you die". So isn't this "Desolate Council" a clear usurpation of power?

You're completely overblowing her reaction. It was quite measured actually. She had a single satisfying thought about taking them out, then realized she needed more information before she could do anything.

Basically, "You mean these idiots actually want to die? Literally why?" N-"That's the price of free will, my lady." . Oh well. I'll deal with them later."

She isn't against the Desolate Council existing and taking care of the Undercity in her absence.

"From their perspective," the dark ranged resumed, "you were a fixture in the Undercity. You made them, you worked to prolong their existence, you were everything to them. Your ascension to warchief was so sudden, the threat so great and so immediate, that you left no one behind to care for them."

Sylvanas nodded. She supposed she could understand that.


"You left a great hole. And holes in power tend to be filled."

...

Reading her expression perfectly, as he so often did, Nathanos hastened to reassure her. "All is calm there, my lady. But in the absence of a single powerful leader, the inhabitans of your city have formed a governing body to tend to the population's needs."

"Ah, I see. An interim organization. That is ... not unreasonable."

Basically a coup d'etat? What happened? Did a couple of random Forsaken come together and go "Well, Sylvanas hasn't been here for a couple of weeks now, let's take over as rulers of this city"?

As far as we know, they are there to deal with the day-to-day dealings of the Undercity. Nathanos specifically said it was not a coup.

As for the actual council themselves, well, we know virtually nothing about them so it's the perfect way for detractors to project their imaginary storylines onto Sylvanas and the Forsaken. We'll see what happens.

[Zulkhan]

Why making a thread like this when your very introduction shows how you read nothing of the novel excerpt that treated the topic?

Oh yes, I forgot, the controversy and potential flame wars. Gotcha.

[Biotec]

She's probably way too busy to.

If she was only the leader of the Forsaken she would have never let the council form in the first place. She might not just kill them, but she could probably curb any attempt to make it with some behind the scenes manipulation.

But now she's leading the entire Horde, and there seem to be a lot of people upset at her leadership. She's fighting a full on war with the Alliance and both sides just discovered plutonium and its a race to make use of it. On top of that they are reaching out to even more allies which just adds more work to her schedule. Nathanos has to be out there representing her as well, and he's kind of stuck in Zandalar trying to get the Zandalari empire on their side. She just doesn't have the resources to prevent this stuff from happening.

[Deleted]

Seems like the Desolate Council are the good and moral part of the Forsaken. I wish them to succeed and take control of the Forsaken at the end of BfA. The Forsaken should only turn people into Undeads who before their death by their free will consent to be turned undead.

[JustRob]

Seems like the Desolate Council are the good and moral part of the Forsaken. I wish them to succeed and take control of the Forsaken at the end of BfA. The Forsaken should only turn people into Undeads who before their death by their free will consent to be turned undead.

Problem with this is eventually the Forsaken would die out. Nobody wants to be turned into a fucking undead monstrosity. I imagine eventually the larger Forsaken society would realize that and remove this governing body from power.

[Combatbutler]

Problem with this is eventually the Forsaken would die out. Nobody wants to be turned into a fucking undead monstrosity. I imagine eventually the larger Forsaken society would realize that and remove this governing body from power.

Is that why so many joined the cult of damned? To the point that most of eastern parts of Lordaeron was firmly under their control.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Seems like the Desolate Council are the good and moral part of the Forsaken. I wish them to succeed and take control of the Forsaken at the end of BfA. The Forsaken should only turn people into Undeads who before their death by their free will consent to be turned undead.

Stillwater didn’t like the valkyr methods, just because some of the council disagrees with Sylvanas doesn’t make them moral.

[Zulkhan]

Seems like the Desolate Council are the good and moral part of the Forsaken. I wish them to succeed and take control of the Forsaken at the end of BfA. The Forsaken should only turn people into Undeads who before their death by their free will consent to be turned undead.

So far the only thing where they have a disagreement with Sylvanas regards the possibility of living forever, where the Desolate Council seems more willing to simply die, in due time.

It remains the issue that while this would be very similar to the birth/death cycle of living races, Forsaken can't still get the "birth" thing right, which is exactly what drove Sylvanas to do what she did. We'll see which kind of opinion the council has about that.