8.0 Warlock changes from Beta

[Baconeggcheese]

Supremacy increases chaos bolt by 5% for every soul shard spent when the infernal is active. There is no doomguard currently in BfA. We don't know any of trinket or Azerite effects it could potentially align with. You seem to be basing the argument for a 2m/20s being needed based on Legion mechanics.

The cool down shouldn't be balanced around other class abilities even if they will likely always be present in a raid environment. It should be balanced around what works best for the class.

If you spend any decent amount of time raiding you know that fight mechanics tend to range in the 30s - 2m range, and that 3m CD's almost never line up with fights because the CD is so long. As well as all the other issues that go along with strong 3m CDs.

Boomkins were a perfect example of this where they had this massive burst for 30s out of every 3 minutes and then did pretty much nothing for the other 2 minutes 30 seconds.

[rhorle]

If you spend any decent amount of time raiding you know that fight mechanics tend to range in the 30s - 2m range, and that 3m CD's almost never line up with fights because the CD is so long. As well as all the other issues that go along with strong 3m CDs.

Right but looking at the rankings for Antorus a lot of the fights don't are either shorter or longer then the 4-6 min range. So a the 1 min cool down difference is negligible on most fights. It would only be more beneficial for fights that end in the 4-6 min range. Infernal and Doomguard haven't been left lacking in Legion when they are on a 3m/25s cool down.

Legion had the legendaries and talents that boosted their effectiveness in situations. But like I said you can't really compare it to Legion since the Infernal functions differently in BfA.

[Gaidax]

Supremacy increases chaos bolt by 5% for every soul shard spent when the infernal is active. There is no doomguard currently in BfA. We don't know any of trinket or Azerite effects it could potentially align with. You seem to be basing the argument for a 2m/20s being needed based on Legion mechanics.

The cool down shouldn't be balanced around other class abilities even if they will likely always be present in a raid environment. It should be balanced around what works best for the class.

You think I am uninformed or something? I am aware there is no Doomguard, that Infernal now generates shards and is Destruction exclusive and so on and so forth.

There are two issues with 3 min CD on Infernal:

1. It is prohibitive, I prefer 2 min CDs with shorted duration simply because I can use them more during the encounter, as well as dungeon runs. Any sort of mechanic which has adds that pop up from time to time or has vulnerability windows favors shorter CDs greatly, as example Apocalypse Modules on Argus or Maiden shield on Avatar or adds on Kin'garoth - heck just about every bloody thing aside from pure tank and spank. 2 min CDs align as a whole much better with encounters, as opposed to 3 min ones.

I don't really need 30 seconds duration, because whatever I used this CD for is likely already taken care of half the way through.


2. If you will take Dark Soul (which is very likely), then you get the most annoying thing ever - DPS cooldowns desync. Not a fan.

3. We are mechanically incapable to keep up the heat for 30 seconds, because we can only hoard so many shards, so the last 10 seconds of the 30 seconds window we'd be running on fumes anyway, which weakens the whole deal.

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Right but looking at the rankings for Antorus a lot of the fights don't are either shorter or longer then the 4-6 min range. So a the 1 min cool down difference is negligible on most fights. It would only be more beneficial for fights that end in the 4-6 min range. Infernal and Doomguard haven't been left lacking in Legion when they are on a 3m/25s cool down.

Legion had the legendaries and talents that boosted their effectiveness in situations. But like I said you can't really compare it to Legion since the Infernal functions differently in BfA.

It's not negligible at all, I can bring you literally a zillion cases in Antorus where having a 2 min CD is vastly superior to 3 min CD.

• Mythic Argus - Apocalypse modules which come every 45 seconds and need to be cleaved down pronto. With 2 min CD you have it up for every third module and it dies sub 10 seconds, so I don't even need bloody 30 seconds there.
• Mythic Aggramar - transitions spawn 2 adds that need to die fast and die in about 20 seconds, with 2 min CD you can use it on pull and have it up just in time for transition. With 3 you won't.
• Mythic Kin'garoth - Adds that you need to nuke down spawn exactly every 2 minutes.

And so on and so forth. 2 min CDs are simply plain superior where you have mechanics to handle. It is not some new thing. 3 minute CDs on the other hand are simply prohibitive because rarely important DPS peak checks are that spread apart.

[Baconeggcheese]

Right but looking at the rankings for Antorus a lot of the fights don't are either shorter or longer then the 4-6 min range. So a the 1 min cool down difference is negligible on most fights. It would only be more beneficial for fights that end in the 4-6 min range. Infernal and Doomguard haven't been left lacking in Legion when they are on a 3m/25s cool down.

Legion had the legendaries and talents that boosted their effectiveness in situations. But like I said you can't really compare it to Legion since the Infernal functions differently in BfA.

I wasn't the one who compared it to legion, I'm speaking about fight design in general. Mechanics tend to happen in the 30s to 2m range, which means the 3m CD is very rarely useful as it tends not to line up with fight mechanics.

Using your example, this is true all over the place in antorus and honestly every raid tier I've ever done.

That's not to mention dark soul having a 2 minute cd.

[Lucrece]

I always thought the infernal/doomguard pet itself should be a mostly flavor thing with a side bonus of their own abilities while they gave the warlock a 20% damage increase aura when they were out.

And preferably a 1 min cd like rage of the Illidari.

[Biomega]

Personally I think the game would work a lot better if the CDs were short in both CD and duration/magnitude. Something like 1-2 min max on the CD would make things a lot more dynamic, and alleviate problems in situations like M+ where classes with short CDs tend to tear things up.

But I don't expect this to happen, of course.

[Deleted]

I understand their reasoning for desyncing cooldowns. If all cooldowns have the same cooldown, might as well remove all but 1.

[Tamurello]

enslaving demopns should work similar to hunter pets, dont know why they dont do it

[Deleted]

I understand their reasoning for desyncing cooldowns. If all cooldowns have the same cooldown, might as well remove all but 1.

But by doing that they are actually making those cooldowns feel worse, not more epic, simply because you can use everything on the pull and then for the rest of the fight you are just pissed of because you don't get to sync them up again for that same super saiyan moment without it being a damage loss.

3min cooldowns just suck balls plain and simple, try talking to a Moonkin about it, i can assure you that the conversation will not be positive!!!!

[Deleted]

But by doing that they are actually making those cooldowns feel worse, not more epic, simply because you can use everything on the pull and then for the rest of the fight you are just pissed of because you don't get to sync them up again for that same super saiyan moment without it being a damage loss.

3min cooldowns just suck balls plain and simple, try talking to a Moonkin about it, i can assure you that the conversation will not be positive!!!!

I agree 3min is too long, but I see no reason to have 3 cd's that are all the same. I'd just Macro them together into 1 anyway. Save the bloat and just create 1 dps cooldown.

Multiple cooldowns SHOULD be different, either different uses (1 for ST 1 for AoE could be an option) or just have diffrent cooldown times so you need to make a choice between waiting for the longest or maybe spread em out for multiple smaller burst phases.

The 45s/90s we see with the new Demo is also an option, however that can lead to macroing them together anyway. This is probably the most accepted version of multiple cooldowns by players.

[Deleted]

I agree 3min is too long, but I see no reason to have 3 cd's that are all the same. I'd just Macro them together into 1 anyway. Save the bloat and just create 1 dps cooldown.

Multiple cooldowns SHOULD be different, either different uses (1 for ST 1 for AoE could be an option) or just have diffrent cooldown times so you need to make a choice between waiting for the longest or maybe spread em out for multiple smaller burst phases.

The 45s/90s we see with the new Demo is also an option, however that can lead to macroing them together anyway. This is probably the most accepted version of multiple cooldowns by players.

I agree with you about having multiple CDs with different roles, i would like that alot actually. But any cooldown that you can stack on pull just ends up feeling lack luster from de-syncing if it wont line up everytime in the future.

And there also the fact that some classes are built around stacking cooldowns, i.e Fury Warrior, sure you make a macro to pop Battlecry/Avatar/BloodBath together but that's whats fun about it, you can only use avatar every second battle cry as well, so even with a little de-syncing because Avatar is 1.5m its still fun to play(aside from the fact you need a trinket from The Nighthold to make it work optimally, but that's a whole other conversation), there is some decision making to be made on holding on for Avatar to come back if BC/BB come of early due to the artifact and convergence or whether to save it cause your about to hit the execute phase in 5%.

Which brings us back to the overarching fact that its the 3min duration that's the issue IMO, its just never up enough to give you those type of decisions or gameplay and just feels rough as fuck if the boss dies 30s before its back up, which because of the median of fight length can be quite a regular occurance.

For warlock i would be fine with 1 CD for bursting baseline, give us all back dark soul and i'd be happy with that, then maybe smaller burst talents like you suggested on a 45s cd would work better, i.e give us something to plan around using, but doesn't totally reck your parse if not used optimally or the fight doesn't allow enough uses and the loss is equally huge because the cd is so significant damage.

[garonne]

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you have a pretty long list here, i understand the concern tho, however, some ppl do find that gameplay fun.

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someone said it before, but all cds dont need to line up all the time. would it be better if it was 4 mins and 40 sec duration? or would you prefer 1 min, 10 sec duration? if you prefer the latter then its not really the sync thats your concern but more so the length of the cd no?

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It needs to be 2 mins CD 20 seconds duration, period. Not this CD desync galore we're having now with 3 min CD Doomguard/Infernal that does not align with anything for shit.

if they made it 2 mins, 20 sec, why not just put all cds into 1 button?

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i played a boomkin when they first came out with incarnation, that 3 min cd 30 sec duration was a hell of a lot of fun. I do understand your concern as i said above, but that longer burst window does have its benefits. especially when you're considering, opening or the last 30% of a boss when all the abilities are out and you wanna push as much dps during that window.

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personally, i think the biggest problem, as bacon pointed out, are the coupling of all these talents together.

The infernal already grants shard bits which basically means more chaos bolts

supremacy adds extra damage bonus to chaos bolts

and in the next row you have dark soul which add another chaos bolt bonus.

if the infernal is 2 mins then there is no need for supremacy and dark soul to exist together. (imo)

as far as the 3 min cd is concerned, i completely understand that lower duration and lower cd are better for mechanics because of the more often use of the spell, however the spell is no longer a big cooldown anymore. the spell can be a 2 min cd but as i said above, they shouldn't exist together. the only other solution is 1.5 min cd with a 15 sec duration which i wouldnt be opposed for but i personally think destro shouldnt be summoning demons so often.

tldr: they should change what supremacy does.

[Baconeggcheese]

you have a pretty long list here, i understand the concern tho, however, some ppl do find that gameplay fun.

There are people who find almost anything fun. You haven't really said anything with this point.

I mean a guy thought it was fun to pick herbs on a panda all the way to max level, but I wouldn't really recommend designing the game around that. If someone wants this large ramping damage gameplay spriests are entirely built around it. There's no need for it to exist on destro, and if anything its counter productive to addressing the specs issues atm.

We have two ramp / dot specs, we don't need more ramp mechanics.

if they made it 2 mins, 20 sec, why not just put all cds into 1 button?

Because "sync" does not simply refer to other cooldowns, it also refers to fight mechanics.

Having multiple shorter CD's even if they're on the same CD has far more utility than having 1 large CD on an extremely long CD that can only be used once or twice in a fight.

i played a boomkin when they first came out with incarnation, that 3 min cd 30 sec duration was a hell of a lot of fun. I do understand your concern as i said above, but that longer burst window does have its benefits. especially when you're considering, opening or the last 30% of a boss when all the abilities are out and you wanna push as much dps during that window.

Its fine when it lines up with a fight, the issue is it rarely does. More often than not the mechanics wiping your raid happen more often than every 3 minutes.

tldr: they should change what supremacy does.

I don't really agree with how you got to the conclusion, but I do agree with the conclusion.

[Deleted]

Destro should be the DD spec for warlock. We have firemage for the more DoT style fire dmg with ignite. And Aff/Demo are already very DoT heavy.

Slowly burning to death does not sounds like proper Destruction to me either. It needs explosions, felfire source, but a more physical way to deal the damage.

[sugarfree]

Destro should be the DD spec for warlock. We have firemage for the more DoT style fire dmg with ignite. And Aff/Demo are already very DoT heavy.

Slowly burning to death does not sounds like proper Destruction to me either. It needs explosions, felfire source, but a more physical way to deal the damage.

It is already a very bursty spec in Alpha. It’s only Immolate and Roaring Blaze that are dots in the spec.

[Baconeggcheese]

It is already a very bursty spec in Alpha. It’s only Immolate and Roaring Blaze that are dots in the spec.

Its not really any different than live on alpha. It can get a tiny bit more bursty via the immolate talent, but everything else pretty much does the same damage relative to one another vs live.

Which is to say that its not all that bursty, at least not compared to what it was.

[Maleific]

Destro should be the DD spec for warlock. We have firemage for the more DoT style fire dmg with ignite. And Aff/Demo are already very DoT heavy.

Slowly burning to death does not sounds like proper Destruction to me either. It needs explosions, felfire source, but a more physical way to deal the damage.

But it does sound like a warlock spec. Slowly burning something alive while melting them with direct damage sounds very much like a warlock.

How about they remove ignite? Because any time we've clashed with another class it feels like we get the short end of the stick in the design department, it would be a nice change lol.

[Lucrece]

Its not really any different than live on alpha. It can get a tiny bit more bursty via the immolate talent, but everything else pretty much does the same damage relative to one another vs live.

Which is to say that its not all that bursty, at least not compared to what it was.

Playing my marksman hunter makes me want to cry. It's like a much better version of what destro should be good at.

Destro is paying a ton of performance tax just for a 45 sec cd havoc, it's ridiculous.

Not only are aimed shots hitting harder than chaosbolt, I can fire them off instantly with frequent lock and load procs, and MM does heads and shoulders better aoe while still being more mobile than warlock.

Marked Shot also hits much harder than conflagrate. Feels bad.

[Deleted]

But it does sound like a warlock spec. Slowly burning something alive while melting them with direct damage sounds very much like a warlock.

How about they remove ignite? Because any time we've clashed with another class it feels like we get the short end of the stick in the design department, it would be a nice change lol.

Slowly burning doesn't sound like a warlock going al Palpatine on the world to me.. wanting "moar powah!!!". If I want my enemies to suffer, I play affliction. Destruction is something I'd take to disintegrate my enemies.

[Deleted]

But it does sound like a warlock spec. Slowly burning something alive while melting them with direct damage sounds very much like a warlock.

How about they remove ignite? Because any time we've clashed with another class it feels like we get the short end of the stick in the design department, it would be a nice change lol.

Destruction: The action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.

Now one could argue that the above definition has no time scale attached to it, but i think we can agree that it conjures images of shit going up in flames and exploding violently, not burny burny like a candle.

The specs identity has always been around the hardest hitting direct damage nukes, immolate is no longer carries out the function it was originally supposed to i.e a hard hitting dot that lessened the dps lost by hard movement due to the majority of destro's damage being hard cast nukes. It is now a resource generator, which is totally fine to be left in, as it still provides a core function, just shift its damage into chaos bolts and give us the spec back that we had in Mists, Destro's finest hour.