Blizzard needs to stop treating the Alliance as a collective "hive-mind"

[Dagoth Ur]

If Humans would at least have an identity like back in Classic. Nowadays they are nothing but a generic sword and armor Nato.

It would maybe be more interesting if they kept more human kingdoms alive. Atm it's basically that Stormwind has final say in everything concerning Alliance. I remember in Tides of Darkness parts when all the human leaders were bickering/discussing what's the best course of action on how to stop the orcs advancing in Lordaeron with all the different personalities clashing and Lothar trying to keep it all together. Would be cool to see something like that again.

[Deleted]

Agreed, though this was largely due to blizzard wanting them to be the main part of anything. When they should have been medieval themed with knights and the rare occasional wizard, they instead took technology from the dwarves because they needed to be the main users of technology, got a modern spy organization since they needed to be the main sneaky aspects of the alliance (rather than say, elves), they have all the best wizards because we can't let Draenei or Gnomes have that, they are the best leaders just because, they have a modern military due to all of the above mixing into one, generic, whole. Can't have their own type of light based religion because they need to have one thats so general it can encompass almost all their allies.

Humans lost any kind of theme or basic identity because they had to take everyone elses. Look at Turalyon FFS. He's the most draenei character we have next to Velen.

Its why Scarlets have so much fan popularity. They are what Alliance players want out of humans. Not the racism, but the theme.

The thing is, they are basically the dwarfes. I mean, yeah they have the best wizards but they don't count for the humans we play. Because those Wizards are all Neutral and don't give a damn about humanity. Thats my biggest problems, the Humans had some great stuff back in Classic with their political schemes, their church, their Paladins and some Wizard stuff. The politics got cut out of it entirely, the church is only relevant nowadays to turn their bishops into twilight's hammer fanatics, their paladin order is neutral and full of tauren and blood elves, their wizards are neutral.

And I agree with you on the Scarlets. I mean, they are not popular here and I don't know if its because the forum is dominated by Forsaken fans, but at least in Germany they were always more popular with Roleplayers than the Argent Crusade ever was. Except the racist part, which is something many Scarlet Guilds on my server liked to ignore because it was stupid considering how they had elves and dwarfes among their greatest heroes ever.

It would maybe be more interesting if they kept more human kingdoms alive. Atm it's basically that Stormwind has final say in everything concerning Alliance. I remember in Tides of Darkness parts when all the human leaders were bickering/discussing what's the best course of action on how to stop the orcs advancing in Lordaeron with all the different personalities clashing and Lothar trying to keep it all together. Would be cool to see something like that again.

I mean, you could keep this up with other races as well if the writers were half competent and would write the Alliance properly. I also would have loved some problems between the eastern alliancee and the Night Elves because of religious conflicts. After all, in terms of religion the old Alliance was rather easy because all of their three main races where predominantly members of one church and even the gnomes seem to learn towards the Light if they chose a religion. But the Night Elves are something new. They have their own religion. And including differences between the Draeneis way of Light and the Humans. I mean, if I would have had any say, I would have made it that the Humans are indeed more leaning towards Xe'ras way of Light, completely denying any right for the void and their users to exist, having no problem forcibly convert unbelievers while the Draenei are more prone to seeing the balance between Light and void.

[Mehrunes]

It would maybe be more interesting if they kept more human kingdoms alive. Atm it's basically that Stormwind has final say in everything concerning Alliance. I remember in Tides of Darkness parts when all the human leaders were bickering/discussing what's the best course of action on how to stop the orcs advancing in Lordaeron with all the different personalities clashing and Lothar trying to keep it all together. Would be cool to see something like that again.

Ehh, with Kul Tiras rejoining (though I don't think they ever officially left) in BfA there are enough human nations for there to be varied opinions if Blizzard bothered writing more than just Blanduin and how everyone wants to suck him off. Stormwind could try to push its views (particularly Anduin's more diplomatic approach), Gilneas pushing for war (especially conquest of Gilneas) and maybe for the idea that strongest human soldiers should become Worgen for a power boost, Kul Tiras for dealing with their issues and for help against Zandalari (given the naval focus of both Kul Tiras and Zandalari it'd make sense for them to be rivals) and perhaps for more naval focus for the Alliance as a whole.

Alterac would never rejoin the Alliance if it resurrected itself and Stromgarde would be a repeat of Gilneas' view of "let's get our kingdom back and kick some Forsaken ass". Dalaran could offer a unique perspective due to their magic and research focus, but they make sense as neutral and their constant flip flopping needs to stop.

And first and foremost it should be other races that should get some more spotlight that'd cure their human homogenization syndrome. As divided as humans may be, the other races are still much more different.
-The Gnomes provide the research focus as well as the political goal of reclaiming Gnomeregan for good;
-Dwarves could offer a more deliberate approach (hulking down in fortresses, holding off chokepoints, prolonged sieges that try to wear the defenders down rather than trying to rush into a breach), political goal of strengthening their lands (particularly areas around Blackrock that was occupied by multiple hostile forces for a long time) as well as some internal politics of their own;
-Night Elves offer focus on Kalimdor rather than EK like most of Alliance, particularly pushing for not abandoning Kalimdor even if things go in a dire direction in there, plus their nature and Druidism theme;
-Void Elves focus on well, Void and maybe repeated attempts at trying to win Lor'themar over;
-High Elves could focus on dying off;
-Lightforged (and Exodar to a degree) Draenei could be the most anti-war group since they have Argus to rebuild;
-Highborne could try to adapt to modern magic and offer some mage focus in the Alliance.

And, also more important than more humans, the human nations that we already have need to be more diverse themselves. This is a problem that concerns almost all races. They are hiveminds for the most parts.

Let's take Stormwind for example? Where's the Church of Holy Light? It should have a strong political position, yet they are only used as Twilight Hammer breeding ground for close to a decade. Given Anduin's penchant for the Light, they could be some of his biggest supporters. House of Nobles on the other hand could want more autonomy for themselves since they are nobles after all, and could try to abuse Anduin's young age and lack of experience against him to achieve their goals. More war focused people could flock to Rogers and increase her influence in the process, as well as seek alliances with warmongers from other races (especially the Worgen).

Even stuff like a rivalry between the army and the navy. 7th Legion, being the most elite force, and the SI:7, being the intelligence, should also hold significant influence and use that to convince Anduin that their approach (which could differ from the other side's a lot) is the best one.

There's even lower classes of society. Merchants should hold some influence being rich. Peasants could form Taxed Enough Already party of Stormwind since they are sick and tired of constant war that's bound to result in more tax burden on them (effecively, another wave of Defias).

Both the Alliance as a whole and Stormwind itself are a bunch of Blanduin's yes-men at this point. And that needs to be addressed.

[Niaraa]

and thats something probably you will never have, because most of your faction fanbase want them to be what you hate them to be; the actual fans of the alliance doesnt want anything near of a "shade of grays" they want to be absolute and pure "right and justice" flawless and always in the right... thats boring but thats it here and there tons of post of hardcore alliance players demostrating that so...

i hope you can chill and calm with that because doesnt seems to change anytime soon :/

i am alliance fan i want plot for the throne, like the dwarven for ironforge, more independence for every race. i want Alliance be the bad guy sometine why always the Horde? and you know what? i hope Jaina will serve us some war crime !
"right and justice" yeah true, but i think "civilisation" is mutch better for alliance base, for me the tribal stuff of the horde is a bit too much even if as was horde before. some player want play a race witch is established since century. Horde is young and some race of the Horde have stull to find their place in the world like the orc before.

[Dagoth Ur]

Ehh, with Kul Tiras rejoining (though I don't think they ever officially left) in BfA there are enough human nations for there to be varied opinions if Blizzard bothered writing more than just Blanduin and how everyone wants to suck him off. Stormwind could try to push its views (particularly Anduin's more diplomatic approach), Gilneas pushing for war (especially conquest of Gilneas) and maybe for the idea that strongest human soldiers should become Worgen for a power boost, Kul Tiras for dealing with their issues and for help against Zandalari (given the naval focus of both Kul Tiras and Zandalari it'd make sense for them to be rivals) and perhaps for more naval focus for the Alliance as a whole.

That would actually be really interesting. Genn wanting to focus on dealing with the Forsaken and restoring Glineas, Night elves wanting to recapture northern Kalimdor, Kul Tiras wanting to deal with Zandalar each pulling Anduin's sleeve in their preferred direction would be pretty reasonable way to introduce conflict within Alliance. I know Blizz likes to pretend everybody in Alliance are Anduin's unwavering supporters, but come on they have a king who can't make a decision without looking at Genn for approval first. It's downright unbelievable that no one tries to exploit that to their benefit.

Dalaran could offer a unique perspective due to their magic and research focus, but they make sense as neutral and their constant flip flopping needs to stop.

I kinda wish Dalaran would just officially join the Alliance and Horde never has anything to do with them again. I mean since we're going into faction war expac and since Horde just recruited Nightborne, who should be more than on par with Kirin Tor (Belves too), those two would just be natural adversaries to each other and would allow Horde to finally say piss off to Kirin Tor and have their own authority on magic (not sure why this hasn't been more emphasized with belves tbh)

And first and foremost it should be other races that should get some more spotlight that'd cure their human homogenization syndrome. As divided as humans may be, the other races are still much more different.
-The Gnomes provide the research focus as well as the political goal of reclaiming Gnomeregan for good;
-Dwarves could offer a more deliberate approach (hulking down in fortresses, holding off chokepoints, prolonged sieges that try to wear the defenders down rather than trying to rush into a breach), political goal of strengthening their lands (particularly areas around Blackrock that was occupied by multiple hostile forces for a long time) as well as some internal politics of their own;
-Night Elves offer focus on Kalimdor rather than EK like most of Alliance, particularly pushing for not abandoning Kalimdor even if things go in a dire direction in there, plus their nature and Druidism theme;
-Void Elves focus on well, Void and maybe repeated attempts at trying to win Lor'themar over;
-High Elves could focus on dying off;
-Lightforged (and Exodar to a degree) Draenei could be the most anti-war group since they have Argus to rebuild;
-Highborne could try to adapt to modern magic and offer some mage focus in the Alliance.

Yeah, pretty much agree with all of this. Add to my first point Void elves and High elves also wanting to capture Silvermoon, gnomes Gnomeregan and you have even more reason to introduce disagreement in Alliance's top brass.

Let's take Stormwind for example? Where's the Church of Holy Light? It should have a strong political position, yet they are only used as Twilight Hammer breeding ground for close to a decade. Given Anduin's penchant for the Light, they could be some of his biggest supporters. House of Nobles on the other hand could want more autonomy for themselves since they are nobles after all, and could try to abuse Anduin's young age and lack of experience against him to achieve their goals. More war focused people could flock to Rogers and increase her influence in the process, as well as seek alliances with warmongers from other races (especially the Worgen).

Even stuff like a rivalry between the army and the navy. 7th Legion, being the most elite force, and the SI:7, being the intelligence, should also hold significant influence and use that to convince Anduin that their approach (which could differ from the other side's a lot) is the best one.

There's even lower classes of society. Merchants should hold some influence being rich. Peasants could form Taxed Enough Already party of Stormwind since they are sick and tired of constant war that's bound to result in more tax burden on them (effecively, another wave of Defias).

Both the Alliance as a whole and Stormwind itself are a bunch of Blanduin's yes-men at this point. And that needs to be addressed.

Those are all great ideas. Would even love to see conflict you mentioned here with orcs just mapped to Orc clan structure for example. I might be too harsh to Stormwind and Anduin but so much potential wasted on Disney like storyline which basically screams chosen one in our faces and people being more concerned with who their cutie pie king will marry instead of his story potentially being crappy just rustles my jimmies. But I guess different strokes for different blokes and all that.

[Skyduke]

You guys STILL going on about this?

Let me make this clear: Blizz is not going to invest time (and therefore, money) into something that does not make them any cash. Are you going to stop playing over their lazy writing? No, you're not. So why should they change anything?

By the way, I agree, I wish the alliance wasn't all "humans humans humans", but that's the way it is, and it's not going to change. Now or ever. They dust off Draenei when there is a burning legion thing, but that's done now, so there you go. Dwarves and gnomes at this point are inexistent in terms of presence.

[Powerogue]

I WANT to see CONFLICT -- WITHIN the "Alliance"!!!

Considering Jaina is up front and center in the next expansion I'm all but certain you're going to get your wish.

I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that the alliance is a "bland force for good." There's plenty of savagery hiding under that polite facade.

[Deleted]

Let's take Stormwind for example? Where's the Church of Holy Light? It should have a strong political position, yet they are only used as Twilight Hammer breeding ground for close to a decade. Given Anduin's penchant for the Light, they could be some of his biggest supporters. House of Nobles on the other hand could want more autonomy for themselves since they are nobles after all, and could try to abuse Anduin's young age and lack of experience against him to achieve their goals. More war focused people could flock to Rogers and increase her influence in the process, as well as seek alliances with warmongers from other races (especially the Worgen).

Even stuff like a rivalry between the army and the navy. 7th Legion, being the most elite force, and the SI:7, being the intelligence, should also hold significant influence and use that to convince Anduin that their approach (which could differ from the other side's a lot) is the best one.

There's even lower classes of society. Merchants should hold some influence being rich. Peasants could form Taxed Enough Already party of Stormwind since they are sick and tired of constant war that's bound to result in more tax burden on them (effecively, another wave of Defias).

Both the Alliance as a whole and Stormwind itself are a bunch of Blanduin's yes-men at this point. And that needs to be addressed.

I feel like the Church of Holy Light should be more Anduins opponent while probably going more radical to purge itself from Twilight's Hammer Cultists. I would love to see the Church starting an Inquisition and publicly burn Twilight's Hammer Cultists they found to show off that they cleansed themselves. At the same time, I could see them being unhappy with the recent choices for allies that the House of Wrynn made, allowing Death Knights, Demon Hunters and Void Elves into the city.

The Nobles and Merchants as well should be rather dissatisfied with the last two kings as they never managed to make decission that economically benefit the Alliance. By refusing to help Kul'tiras against the Horde they made it shut itself down and probably losing Kul'tiras as an important trading partner, Varian failed at securing the Horde as trading partner and even after he won the war, he failed in conquering new territories or at least reconquer lost territories like Southshore. I mean, basically both Varian and Anduin are massive failures.

[Cucultlan]

i am alliance fan i want plot for the throne, like the dwarven for ironforge, more independence for every race. i want Alliance be the bad guy sometine why always the Horde? and you know what? i hope Jaina will serve us some war crime !
"right and justice" yeah true, but i think "civilisation" is mutch better for alliance base, for me the tribal stuff of the horde is a bit too much even if as was horde before. some player want play a race witch is established since century. Horde is young and some race of the Horde have stull to find their place in the world like the orc before.

yeah but sadly blizz always hear to the lousies instead of the rest if the fanbase, and since all loudsies are like that thats why you get it ._. on top of the bad writter that says "its easier to write for the humans" and doesnt even bother to try on the others
one can only hope on the jaina topic

[Gaidax]

I am not so sure about this. Do we have to make 2 factions a carbon copy of each other? IMO, it's actually interesting that factions differ in such a way where Horde has a lot of alliance of convenience play, while Alliance seems more united ideologically. I think such dynamics enrich the story, because then every faction has its own story to tell, as opposed to pretty much being the same old same old.

[Shampro]

I am not so sure about this. Do we have to make 2 factions a carbon copy of each other? IMO, it's actually interesting that factions differ in such a way where Horde has a lot of alliance of convenience play, while Alliance seems more united ideologically. I think such dynamics enrich the story, because then every faction has its own story to tell, as opposed to pretty much being the same old same old.

But in practice the Horde is designed to support and be under it's Warchief (as long as it doesn't fuck it's inherit allies over), the Alliance isn't, or isn't suppose to be. Both basicly having a Warchief hurts the narrative, but it specially damages the narrative potential of the Alliance as a collective of different nations. They are literally limiting thier potential and storytelling by everyone basicly being a copy of Anduin or an Anduin yes-men.

[Jademist]

Velen has no interest whatsoever in the HvA stuff. Nor does Malfurion. I think people overestimate Tyrande's military experience. She became their leader at the end of the War of the Ancients, co-presided over the War of the Satyr, then had 10,000 of quiet just watching over her lands until WC3 happened.

Tyrande's experience outweighs that of Anduin's, though.

All I am saying is that it's ridiculous that the Alliance just went along with Anduin basically taking the mantle as de facto leader of the Alliance. We went to him to get approval in recruiting the allied races. He has experiential breadth of a shower as opposed to the other leaders.

[Elba]

I don't want conflict in the Alliance. I want them to be a unified force with the single motive of genociding the Horde races from the face of the planet.

[Qualia]

All I am saying is that it's ridiculous that the Alliance just went along with Anduin basically taking the mantle as de facto leader of the Alliance. We went to him to get approval in recruiting the allied races. He has experiential breadth of a shower as opposed to the other leaders.

Experience in a position of leadership isn't always the most important factor for a leader, though. Otherwise, the greatest leaders would have always been sorted in order by years leading - which is clearly not the case in both real life and fictions. There are personality, charisma, political influence / backing, and connections to be taken into account as well, to name a few other factors. Surely, Anduin has very little real experience in leading, but he also has full supports from other more experienced leaders (Genn who is virtually always with Anduin, and Velen / Magni if you count him are very willing to help him as well) and is happy to learn from them.

[Darktbs]

Tyrande's experience outweighs that of Anduin's, though.

All I am saying is that it's ridiculous that the Alliance just went along with Anduin basically taking the mantle as de facto leader of the Alliance. We went to him to get approval in recruiting the allied races. He has experiential breadth of a shower as opposed to the other leaders.

The narrative blizzard is going for is:Place two people that are not fit to rule their faction and have the world suffer from the consequences of their actions.
In Anduin's case, he has the burden of his father, who united the Alliance and was loved trusted by all, and now they have the same expectations for Anduin.

This is obvious when you go to the Alliance embassy where many of the leader are either talking about new allies or how Anduin is like his father/will grow into his crown.

[cparle87]

Tyrande's experience outweighs that of Anduin's, though.

All I am saying is that it's ridiculous that the Alliance just went along with Anduin basically taking the mantle as de facto leader of the Alliance. We went to him to get approval in recruiting the allied races. He has experiential breadth of a shower as opposed to the other leaders.

Garrosh didn't have experience besides as a battlefield commander before he was made Warchief either. Thrall made it clear when he stepped down that Garrosh had other racial leaders like Baine and other experienced people like Eitrigg to help him grow into the role.

Anduin also has such people, such as Velen being his teacher and Genn, who despite all his questionable actions has ruled a kingdom for decades and brought it through two major wars.

[Deleted]

Just to mention it beforehand: I haven't read all the pages and I'm primarily responding to the initial post.

I do agree. But you're also giving the reason why it's not going to happen within the first few lines. I actually think there are some people within Blizzard that would be interested in good stories for the Alliance but for some reason they're not getting their turn. Just think about the execution of the Trials for the High King. From my perspective those were written by someone who doesn't give jack about what he had to do. We've seen some other cases where interesting plots could've been developed but didn't. A nice example for this is the handling for Archbishop Benedictus and the Twilight Highlands.

Another issue WoW does have (probably caused by resource constraints) it's rarely the case anymore that you will actually see plots that are only being told on one side. Probably also because we're usually sharing NPCs and quest areas now. A good extension lore wise would be one where we share little to no content. As such the writers could focus on actually telling stories about the members of your own faction rather than having some clash or cooperation. Some people have been telling me that BfA is going to be that but I highly doubt it. At least not in the fashion that I'd like. I don't see that we will experience the interaction between Moira and Gelbin or the strive among the triumvirate of the Dwarven leaders or how Tyrande is fed up with being patient ... man that was so stupid, I really hate that scenario.

Also just because you show that there are difference and individuals within a faction doesn't mean that you can't be goody two-shoes. It's perfectly fine to have some kind of disagreement and show that. For me the difference is that alliance members are more likely to get back together to strengthen their bonds after having some kind of understanding what actually happened. This also means that we don't have to have a high king to step it to tell everyone to shoo so he can tell them what to do.

For those that are chiming in that the loss of Teldrassil might lead to a rise of the Night Elves ... I expect it to be as big as the one of the Worgens when they lost their capital cities. The Void Elves are an afterthought so I don't expect them to go anywhere either. Also for those that argue that alliance races don't have a lot of variety ... well that only happened after Blizzard decided to go push the Horde. Think about the old days when Priests still had different Skills because they had different ideologies based on their race and background. While Blizzard all made it go back to the light but originally, at least form my understanding, Elune, the light and the other deities of the different races could've been something very different.

As long as the alliance keeps being a plot device for the horde I don't see that many/anything interesting will happen in regards to having not just a uniform blob with the exception of loosing maybe even more character (if that is possible).

[Skyduke]

I don't want conflict within the Alliance, I just want it to be an ALLIANCE and not some kind of superkingdom. Which it was not initially. Sure, you can put in fragile arguments like "Strength in numbers" or "We need to be united vs the Horde", but the point is that what Blizz made the night elves into is kinda sickening. The NE from W3 were way stronger and more respectable than the little bitches they have turned out to be in WoW.

I love Anduin, that does not make me want the other races within the alliance to not have goals, methods and objectives of their own... And certainly sometimes they could also take the leading role. Does not ALWAYS have to be the human king.

[Deleted]

I don't want conflict within the Alliance, I just want it to be an ALLIANCE and not some kind of superkingdom. Which it was not initially. Sure, you can put in fragile arguments like "Strength in numbers" or "We need to be united vs the Horde", but the point is that what Blizz made the night elves into is kinda sickening. The NE from W3 were way stronger and more respectable than the little bitches they have turned out to be in WoW.

I love Anduin, that does not make me want the other races within the alliance to not have goals, methods and objectives of their own... And certainly sometimes they could also take the leading role. Does not ALWAYS have to be the human king.

I would prefer the Alliance more diversed and more ruthless. Make the Humans and Lightforged more Fanatics of the Light who want to destroy the Forsaken with a Passion, let the Worgen stay savage and vengeful and make the Night Elves savage and vengeful again.

[Toppy]

I would prefer the Alliance more diversed and more ruthless. Make the Humans and Lightforged more Fanatics of the Light who want to destroy the Forsaken with a Passion, let the Worgen stay savage and vengeful and make the Night Elves savage and vengeful again.

I can see the complaints now: "Blizz is making Alliance evil! I wanted Alliance not pink skinned Horde!"