Blizzard never makes small proper raids with 1-2 bosses anymore

[Zyky]

A rehash with 3 bosses - OP is talking about things like Eye of Eternity. Unique art + boss.

What rehash exactly? Guarm and Helya were completely new fights, Odyn was a mix of 2 bosses from the dungeon followed by a completely different Odyn encounter. Are you upset that they reused models and areas to end a story arc? ToV was a proper raid. I'd understand more if every encounter was exactly the same as their dungeon counterparts, but they weren't. As much as I disliked ToV, it was a unique raid.

[xcitng]

Must have missed ToV

[McNeil]

I do kinda miss having lair dungeons like Gruul, Magtheridon, Malygos, Sartharion etc. These kind of fights always felt a lot more dynamic than the other fights in larger raids from the same tier. Nowadays they are replaced with world bosses who are just boring loot pinatas. ToV was a nice attempt to return smaller raids and I hope we'll see more of them.

[Kathranis]

I think it's because even a smaller raid still takes the environment artists a ton of time and effort to make, which could be better spent on a wing for a larger raid or a 5-man dungeon.

World bosses seem to be fulfilling the main role of the smaller 1-2 boss raids now, and from a player standpoint I don't think putting them in an instanced environment with unique art really makes them that much more compelling.

[Marrilaife]

I hope they won't do "small raids" like 1-3 bosses small. To me they usually feel like a filler content and lack epicness. Would anyone enjoy 1 room 1 boss dungeon? Probably not. And raids should be bigger than a dungeon.

[Volardelis]

Not to mention, without extending ilvl and with some of its horrible gear, it felt useless.

ToV was a filler raid. It was designed to complete a loose storyline while giving high end players something to do instead of farming EN until NH.

[Satelliteyears0o]

I liked that raid and yes it is encounters similar to this that i do mean.

those werent the old days

[RoKPaNda]

They don't need to make filler raids like that anymore since the introduction of LFR. They can justify the resources to make real raids.

[Volardelis]

I miss Trial of the Crusader so much.

Tell me why you all hated it.

These days, Tirions constant monologues, back in wrath? Faction champs. Terrible boss design, tanks were useless, healers got 1 shot the moment it got pulled etc.

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What are you talking about? ToV was three bosses whose models were reused from dungeons. It’s layout was half dungeon and half questing area in Stormheim. In terms of art assets it was literally nothing BUT rehash. Even most of the mechanics in the Odyn fight were the same as the dungeon bosses, just mashed together.

Only 2 bosses in ToV were previous dungeon bosses (Odyn and Helya), and even then, they had new mechanics as well.

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At least BRD had set drops, throne felt way more like a “epeen” raid you do just to say you did it.

Blackrock depths was a lvl 85 raid?

[Jester Joe]

You mean, aside from the zones being cut and pasted from things the players had already seen?

As pointed out, the zone was redone for the raid. It's not the same.

[Gado]

Wouldn't mind if they did a few more like ToV, where they use an existing map for new encounters. That allowed them to save a ton of time on art assets and gave us an extra bit of content to tide us over.

Hell, I don't think there's a single original art asset in ToV. Not that that's a bad thing so long as it's for side content and not the main stuff.

[Shakou]

I too miss the small 1-2 boss raids, and while I didn't go head over heels for TOV I think the people in here talking shit about it are a small minority, on the whole TOV was very well received. And no the mechanics weren't copy pasted over, some of the spells look the same but they are totally not the same spells. Although TOV on the whole felt tacked on, and the reason is because it was. They didn't originally plan on having a raid between Emerald Nightmare and Nighthold. For what it was I'd say they did a really great job, to this day higher end raiders are still trying to get The Chosen title, and people really enjoyed the Vrykul themed xmog sets and such.

Also out of all the raid bosses in Legion there were only two that would be considered game changers, as in they are the bench mark for how they will design similar style encounters in the future, and that is Guarm, and after him Krosus. You will never see a tank and spank boss added to this game from here on out that doesn't have a similar amount of responsibility given to the whole raid in terms of dealing with mechanics, or that doesn't feature something like actual environmental destruction forcing you to step up your game and making it a real kill or be killed situation.

I don't see what the deal is with travel time either, who cares? Anyone trying to say that's a legitimate complaint against having more raid instances scattered through different zones is just lazy. Most of the time people are getting summoned in anyways.

And even with different themes being put together for raids we got more variety and higher quality I would say in terms of art assets when they didn't throw everything together into a single raid, and that's not really even true of every raid recently. There's only 3 out of the last 7 raids that even had any real variety, and that's including TOV.

I personally would prefer if we got as much variety in terms of raid sizes and raid environments as we did in TBC.

Allows for a lot more story development too when everything isn't crammed into the same instance.

But that's me.

Mostly tho, I was pleased with the raids in Legion except for Emerald Nightmare. To me that felt like they were back tracking to Cata quality raids, which to say the least were not high quality in terms of art assets used and such.

[Raugnaut]

We also got Onyxia,
The Obsidian Sanctum
Gruul, Vortex pinnacle.
And so on,
I think it is a pretty good way to release a raid the requires a bit less effort from blizz side but can be made to keep some raiding material for people that can last 1-3 months.
Also can be a intresting way to have "Challenge" modes like the old days with inraid setting like leaving a boss alive or a tower standing and so on.

While "Hard Modes" like in Ulduar were interesting, Blizzard found them a nightmare to really balance. In an interview they did on it a while back, it was mainly an issue of effort vs reward. If you have a hard mode that's resoundingly more difficult then just the regular fight, how do you reward it? If you do it via ilvl, then you have to take into account ilvl inflation - It's already extreme enough with 4 seperate difficulties, not to mention Titanforging, if blizzard had added hard-mode ilvl on top of it, we would easily be over 1k ilvl in Antorus atm. If you add vanity behind it, then how do you reward that? One-time drop? Then you run into the issue of ppl wanting to do the hard-mode for the reward, compared to ppl who just want the loot and couldn't give a fuck about vanity.

So, Blizzard decided that achievements were good enough for a hard mode - While not all achievements are comparable to the difficulty between, say, Yogg'Saron 0 lights and +4 lights back in the day, most of them can be compared to the difficulty between Elders last and Protector last in ToES, with a few being as easy as FL+1 and FL no towers (Almost no difference in the fight, you just have to avoid extra fire or kill additional adds)


As for small raids, like Gruul/Magtheridon, VoA/BH, Blizzard completely replaced them with World Bosses, it's just that in WoD and Legion, you can't get tier from them like you could in MoP. Honestly, Legion is pretty crappy in terms of that - At least in MoP and WoD, the world bosses were decent - MoP world bosses actually related to the ongoing story, WoD world bosses were significantly powerful enemies, and the Gorgon world boss rotation was great, since it was just every other week.

In Legion, world bosses are HORRIBLE, and for most of them, the "lore" behind them is a enormous joke - A overstuffed Sea Giant? A Sea Giant who punches a mediocre mage to cast spells? Not to mention the fact that you maybe see a specific world boss once every half-year.

7.0 world bosses - Completely shit. Blizzard should have at least divided them up into zones - You get 1 world boss per zone per week. So Highmountain would alternate between Drugon and Flotsam, Stormheim would alternate between Nithogg and the Soultakers, ect. Maybe move Withered Jim to Surumar, so Azsuna would alternate between two, and Surumar could have alternated between three world bosses.

7.2 world bosses - Decent. They all could have used voice overs, ESPECIALLY Brutallus (I LIVE FOR THIS!!!!), and it would have been better if they were up for an entire week rather then 3 days (Disconnect them from the Nether Disruptor), but yea, decent.

7.3 world bosses - Should have been 2 greater invasions per zone, with 1 up in each zone per week imo. Should have also tossed in a number of known names rather then a bunch of nobodies - Magtheridon instead of "Vilemus(Lol that name)", Jarraxus instead of Sotanathor (Where the fuck was he this expansion?), ect.

Antorus was honestly a disappointment too - With the exception of a few bosses, most of them were basically "Dragon Soul"-esque bosses - Completely out of left field, with not a single mention as to who they, being EXTREMELY important, powerful, and seemingly influencial characters, were. Granted, ToS was pretty much like that for it's early bosses, but eh.

[cparle87]

While "Hard Modes" like in Ulduar were interesting, Blizzard found them a nightmare to really balance. In an interview they did on it a while back, it was mainly an issue of effort vs reward. If you have a hard mode that's resoundingly more difficult then just the regular fight, how do you reward it? If you do it via ilvl, then you have to take into account ilvl inflation - It's already extreme enough with 4 seperate difficulties, not to mention Titanforging, if blizzard had added hard-mode ilvl on top of it, we would easily be over 1k ilvl in Antorus atm. If you add vanity behind it, then how do you reward that? One-time drop? Then you run into the issue of ppl wanting to do the hard-mode for the reward, compared to ppl who just want the loot and couldn't give a fuck about vanity.

So, Blizzard decided that achievements were good enough for a hard mode - While not all achievements are comparable to the difficulty between, say, Yogg'Saron 0 lights and +4 lights back in the day, most of them can be compared to the difficulty between Elders last and Protector last in ToES, with a few being as easy as FL+1 and FL no towers (Almost no difference in the fight, you just have to avoid extra fire or kill additional adds)


As for small raids, like Gruul/Magtheridon, VoA/BH, Blizzard completely replaced them with World Bosses, it's just that in WoD and Legion, you can't get tier from them like you could in MoP. Honestly, Legion is pretty crappy in terms of that - At least in MoP and WoD, the world bosses were decent - MoP world bosses actually related to the ongoing story, WoD world bosses were significantly powerful enemies, and the Gorgon world boss rotation was great, since it was just every other week.

In Legion, world bosses are HORRIBLE, and for most of them, the "lore" behind them is a enormous joke - A overstuffed Sea Giant? A Sea Giant who punches a mediocre mage to cast spells? Not to mention the fact that you maybe see a specific world boss once every half-year.

7.0 world bosses - Completely shit. Blizzard should have at least divided them up into zones - You get 1 world boss per zone per week. So Highmountain would alternate between Drugon and Flotsam, Stormheim would alternate between Nithogg and the Soultakers, ect. Maybe move Withered Jim to Surumar, so Azsuna would alternate between two, and Surumar could have alternated between three world bosses.

7.2 world bosses - Decent. They all could have used voice overs, ESPECIALLY Brutallus (I LIVE FOR THIS!!!!), and it would have been better if they were up for an entire week rather then 3 days (Disconnect them from the Nether Disruptor), but yea, decent.

7.3 world bosses - Should have been 2 greater invasions per zone, with 1 up in each zone per week imo. Should have also tossed in a number of known names rather then a bunch of nobodies - Magtheridon instead of "Vilemus(Lol that name)", Jarraxus instead of Sotanathor (Where the fuck was he this expansion?), ect.

Antorus was honestly a disappointment too - With the exception of a few bosses, most of them were basically "Dragon Soul"-esque bosses - Completely out of left field, with not a single mention as to who they, being EXTREMELY important, powerful, and seemingly influencial characters, were. Granted, ToS was pretty much like that for it's early bosses, but eh.

Very good points all around. Your idea for the 7.0 world bosses was exactly the same one I had in my mind, but I wasn't sure how to put it. I tried to explain it to my guildies a few times but I didn't do a good job. Add a few more world bosses so all zones have the same number and have one up each zone each week.

PS: I think they'd have to make a change in the bonus roll system, though. Make a separate coin just for world bosses you can earn. They've become insanely stingy this xpac. Only 3 per week for EVERYTHING. Used to be you could earn pretty much infinite coins for older content.

[Zyky]

Wouldn't mind if they did a few more like ToV, where they use an existing map for new encounters. That allowed them to save a ton of time on art assets and gave us an extra bit of content to tide us over.

Hell, I don't think there's a single original art asset in ToV. Not that that's a bad thing so long as it's for side content and not the main stuff.

The entirety of Helya's boss room was a completely new area, it looked similar, but it's very different from the zone if you were visit it while questing or for the few WQs down there.

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Very good points all around. Your idea for the 7.0 world bosses was exactly the same one I had in my mind, but I wasn't sure how to put it. I tried to explain it to my guildies a few times but I didn't do a good job. Add a few more world bosses so all zones have the same number and have one up each zone each week.

PS: I think they'd have to make a change in the bonus roll system, though. Make a separate coin just for world bosses you can earn. They've become insanely stingy this xpac. Only 3 per week for EVERYTHING. Used to be you could earn pretty much infinite coins for older content.

I disagree entirely, there should only be 1 world boss up per week MAX. If there were 5 world bosses up, all dropping gear equal to Emerald Nightmare at the start of the expansion, what would be the point of raiding? I can agree with broken shore, the world bosses shouldn't have been linked to the ND, but I certainly don't agree with the Broken Isles/Argus World Bosses having 3-5 world bosses active at the same time.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't call a small raid with 2 bosses a proper raid. :P

[Celista]

I think they avoid them a bit due to backlash from idiots in the community.

Literally everytime they've released a low number boss raid you always see idiots complain that "OMG THEY ARE SO LAZY, ONLY 3 BOSSES WTF BLIZZARD!".

Ironically the same people that complain that high number Boss Raids take "too long" for them.

Yup, this. People complained that single-boss raids were lazy and that they wanted more bosses.

Ruby Sanctum was a great raid imo.

[Thundering]

Also,

were raids like Onyxia's Lair, Vault of Archavon and/or Obsidian Dragonshrine not received well either?

They are some of the most liked raids ever made.

[Polarthief]

I miss Trial of the Crusader so much.

Tell me why you all hated it.

They passed off 5 bosses as an entire tier of content, and it was right after they cut the BEST raid in the game short.

If it was a filler raid and not an entire tier, it would have been more than acceptable. Most of the fights weren't even that bad, it was literally just the timing and trying to pass off 5 bosses as tier.

[Teri]

I keep with my theory that LFR weighs on the decision of how many bosses.

If they have like 3 x 1 different boss raid in the same tier, queues probably take longer then 1 x 3 boss raid.

Only exceptions so far have been 1-2 end boss queues with generally higher itemlevel drops for the last boss.

Also the sense of progression and moving deeper into a raid sounds more interesting to me.

Travel time between small raids also weighs in for non-LFR, TBC and Wotlk had a lot of extra time used by traveling between instances (even with summoning)