Turn Prisons Into Colleges

[DSRilk]

We used to do this in the past giving high school education, trade schools and other programs in prisons it was very effective. In the hysteria of the 90's such programs were cut, we added more stupid laws in the name of being tough on crime as such recidivism and incarceration rates sky rocketed.

High school and trade school programs are not nearly the same as university levels of schooling. Not only are they far, far less necessary, but they are far, far cheaper. As I said in a previous post, I'm all for free HS and vocational programs. I am against free university-level programs, which is the topic at hand. I also agree that the "tough on crime" laws are "stupid" in that they are causing far more harm than good, and they need to be reviewed at a minimum and likely excised in most cases.

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In new york it actually works like this you have to stay and work in new york for x number of years and if you move then you have to pay.

I think programs like that can work, and are a good path to decreasing costs. Companies do something similar quite often. I don't think it'll come close to solving the issue, but I it's certainly a good step.

[Zantos]

unlikely. Most non criminal people arent that stupid and rather not have a criminal record that'll restrict their job prospects.

Its like saying MJ will lead to everyone doing cocaine, cause why stop at MJ?

You're thinking to narrowly. A criminal record will stop being any type of deterrent for jobs if they are attached to a good college degree. Especially if its something minor that doesn't even pertain to the job. The fact of the matter is, if their need is great enough, and Most of the supply has a criminal record, one of two things will happen. 1, the law abiding citizen who has the same degree will be in demand more, helping them to get a job after graduation. Or 2, they will stop caring about a criminal record since some now Choose to break the law so they can get a free education.

If we go into route 1, the route you're most for, then this would be a Huge waste of money. Right now, the average cost Per tax payer for jails is between $30k-$60k. Tack on a free college education, and that'll skyrocket. That is more then the average wage of US workers. This is a stupid idea that fails no matter what route it takes. It'll either create more crime and lessen the impact of a criminal record for the sake of fulfilling job positions, or it'll waste a ton more money for very little reward.

If you're goal is to lower crime rate through education, then offer Free education to the citizens. That is the best route. Since education lowers crime rate, that would be that the crime rate would be lower as a direct result of more, college educated citizens. What's more, it wont make jail seem as an appealing source for going further in the economy and will result in less people going to jail for breaking the law in the first place. That would then lead to lower costs in jails for upkeep with fewer criminals. Its a win/win. Citizens get greater education > Less crimes committed > Lower costs on jails.

Where as, with this asinine idea, it would increase the cost to prisons and probably create more crime since poverty stricken people would flock to jail for free college.

[Najnaj]

I'm having a conversation with someone. The fact that there's a massive number of people in prisons in the us it's likely due to the fact we glorify crime. The left currently. This is an example to illustrate my point on us having a culture problem.

I know you are "having a conversation" with someone. That does not answer my question.

The left does not have issues with rifles. "Having a culture problem" is about as vague as you can get. The reason you have so many people in prison is due to three strikes and mandatory minimums.

I asked you to explain your post, Not to make a new one that was equally vague and non specific. The devil is in the details and you do not have a single one...

[Frontenac]

Let's be honest here. Most convicts haven't even completed high school. Most convicts are also petty criminals who just need to geared towards the right direction. Giving them the opportunity to complete their education and learn a trade or craft so that they can earn a living when they are released is not only charitable, it's profitable for the society. College formation is a bit pushing it though...

[Vash The Stampede]

So, at a time where students can't afford education as it is, teachers don't get paid enough... We want to give education to inmates. Remind me again, where the money comes from, and why it would go there instead of to the people who are already trying to do that?

I think education is great, but I also enjoy a good fiction book too.

We'll just print more money, cause it's not like money is tied to gold or anything. Either that or tax the wealthy to pay for it.

[Deleted]

Even if they get a college degree, will they be hired with a record?

And what's a college degree even worth anymore? Especially in a shrinking job market, why would you want even more competition?

[Inshadowz]

Yeah bud let's send all the shitbirds to con college. The way she goes.

[Deleted]

Read through all the thread and thought I would reply. I'm not from USA but the UK but I have been in prison so have my own views on this.

First alot of people think all prisoners are scum and deserve to be in prison and deserve nothing but the basics to keep us alive. Not everybody but alot do. When they hear talk of prisoners they straight away think of murderers/rapists/ armed robbers etc. but people who make mistakes or end up in trouble because they have problems with drink like me or drugs or gambling.

I got a 2 year prison sentence for GBH (serious assault). I don't think if you get a short prison sentence or like jail time over there too much will happen but if you get a year or more they should try and give you a chance to make changes in your life and try and rehabilitate you. But like others have said that will only work if you want to change. I did want to change and remember when I got that 2 year sentence thinking that I never wanted to end up back in prison again. I met so many other prisoners who had been in and out of prison and I didn't want to end up like that. When I got sentenced I had a son on the way - I missed him being born and the first part of his life because i was locked up and that hurt. My mother also died when I was in prison and I felt so bad about not being around when I knew she was dying. I got out to go to the funeral but was cuffed and chained to prison officers and that made me realise even more how much I had messed up and put my family through.

The first while I was in prison it was pretty much being in my cell 22 hours a day - lying on my bunk, watching TV,smoking - not doing much but then I got transferred to a training prison where there wer jobs, training and education and that was much better as having something productive to do all day was good. I don't think you need to have "college" courses as such but you should have something to do when you are locked up. I got to workin the kiychens and got a baxic qualification from that. I also got encouaged to start studying for an "Open University" degree. That is something that anybody can do over here and don't think it costs too much. You do it from home and then - if you are not in prison - attend somewhere every month or so. In prison I got to meet a tutor once a week with a few others who were doing it but the rest of te time I just had to put the work in myself but it got me studying and gave me something to do. I didn't like school and left school without finishing when I was 16 and joined the Army so it was strange being back studying when I was 24. I actually stuck with it after I got out of prison and got my degree in the end.

When you get out of prison it is hard to get a job. i was yound enough and hadn't been in prison for years on end but at the start it was if people knew that you had been in prison you got no chance and that's wrong and probably why so many end up back in prison. I got a mimimum wage job as a casual labourer on a site eventhough it wasn't what I wanted but it was all I could get. I eventually got sorted with something better from my girlfriend's family. I still thought I had to work harder than everybody else because of my record to show i deserved the job I got. because I got support and a chance and stuck with it I did well and was able to apply for a few other things and being in prison was not as important as people could see I was a hard worker but I could have easily thought why bother and could have ended up back in prison again. I am now a supervisor in a retail company and in the last year have been involved in some interviews for new staff and have dealt with all this from the other side and in one case to give a chance to another guy who had also been in prison.

Like I said i joined the Army when I was 16 and did 6 years there including 6 months in MCTC. i was only 18 but got to stay in the Army but for lads getting discharged part of their sentence was spent learning trade skills - like being a plumber - so they could get a job for when they got out.

I know things are probably better over here than in USA about rehabilitation for prisoners but it is nothing like say Norway or Denmark that people have mentioned here.Going to prison is the punishment not going to prison for punishment and whatever time you have to spend there I think there should be training and education. It won't work for everybody but it will work for some and 99% of prisoners will get released. I think they need to give more help for people being released from prison as it is really hard when you get back out and have a prison record.

[Forogil]

This is very incorrect. It's 16% of our budget.

And even that is misleadingly high: military defense is 16% of the federal budget in the US (the majority of which is spent on social security, medicare and Medicaid; the elderly vote - prisoners don't).

However, education and prisons are primarily part of the local and state budget in the US - so it makes more sense to compare to the government budget in total.

Education is 15% of the government budget, and prisons 1.3%, and military defense is 9% of the government budget of the US (and additional 3% are marked "defense", but related to veterans and even a miniscule foreign aid is included in "defense"). As percent of GDP that translates to 3-4%, and the NATO-goal is 2%.

However, spending more doesn't necessarily guarantee better results, e.g. the US is likely spending a lot more on prisons than other countries - because more persons are in prison.

[Deleted]

Cool I'll go steal a candy bar or something and get free food, shelter, and an education.

Sounds like a sweet deal.

education isn't free in America ?

[therealbowser]

For all the sarcastic replies, how is trying to rehab prisoners through education a bad thing? It's like y'all are missing the forest for the trees, which is reducing crime rate.

Depends on what we are talking about with college. Maybe this could work in theory.

Community college-quality level courses are what they'd be taught, and it would likely be specific fields that their criminal record wouldn't prevent them from having a shot at it.

That said, money should be spent on people who are not criminals that want an education. Maybe the best solution here, is making them work for it (or alternatively pay for it if they can afford it).

It's too complicated a subject to answer simply. Paying for criminals to get an education over normal citizens is something I'm against, merely giving them the opportunity on the other hand, is something I am all for.

[Clone]

Cool I'll go steal a candy bar or something and get free food, shelter, and an education.

Sounds like a sweet deal.

Free buttsecks too.

[shimerra]

I take that as a compliment you know, someone old and wise talking to dreamers who have nothing but rose-tinted glasses believing the world is full of starry-eyed good people. You know the ultimate joke that ended with Ann Frank? She believed that people were also good... then she learned the hard way how wrong she was as she was forced into a death camp.

Again, people aren't in prison because they were planting flowers for an old lady, getting cats down from trees, or playing hopscotch in a back yard. We have a culture problem plain and fucking simple. We show fantasized versions of gangsters nonstop on the television, show how easy it is to make money from it, bring up single mothered children with a media mindset that a cowboy esque gangster is the way to be a real man and wonder why the hell we have such a loose cannon problem with the youth and overflowing prisons.

You really shouldn't. You're not gandalf. You're the 70 year old doctor who digs his heals in refusing to use newer and proven to be more effective medicine because he doesn't know how or thinks the old way is best. You're the old man pissed his white daughter married a black man. You're the old man enraged by the thought that gay marriage is a thing.


Here's your plan in a nut shell.

1) Person commits crime
2)Sit the in a box that puts them around other people with nothing to do but be bored and develop associations that encourage committing more crime when you get out
3) Make it harder for said person to earn a living without resorting to crime
4) piss and whine like an ignorant baby about culture when the cycle repeats and also ironically completely fail to understand how it promotes single parenthood and encourages future generations to be more prone to commit crime.


There are concrete actions such as Red lining and over policing of minor drug related offenses that have directly lead to this. But you just be the equivalent to Clint Eastwood and rage like an idiot at an empty chair.

[Sharein]

They already offer some educational options that not only give them some sort of education, they also give a reduced sentence. You are batshit crazy if you are giving a free college education to inmates, while the rest of us who are law abiding drown in student loan debt, is going to fly.

Yeah, this.

[vindicatorx]

education isn't free in America ?

No, anything past a high school diploma costs the student. The university I went to was a state university (cheaper than non state residents get) and was around $7,000 a semester for tuition. So yeah if you can push yourself and graduate in 8 semesters that's around $56,000 not including housing, books, or food. I got a bunch of grants due to my age and I got a few scholarships for grades after my first year and I still had a student loan debt of $37,000.

[Beazy]

Prisoners have been getting degrees while locked up since like the 70s.

[Kathandira]

Leftists are always complaining about the amount of prisoners we have.

With distance learning, why not offer them college?

Most likely the prisoners who take college courses decided beforehand to better their lives, getting the prisoners who care nothing about college to sign up is the challenge.




https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/06/o...education.html

Imagine if prisons looked like the grounds of universities. Instead of languishing in cells, incarcerated people sat in classrooms and learned about climate science or poetry — just like college students. Or even with them.

This would be a boon to prisoners across the country, a vast majority of whom do not have a high school diploma. And it could help shrink our prison population. While racial disparities in arrests and convictions are alarming, education level is a far stronger predictor of future incarceration than race.

The idea is rooted in history. In the 1920s, Howard Belding Gill, a criminologist and a Harvard alumnus, developed a college-like community at the Norfolk State Prison Colony in Massachusetts, where he was the superintendent. Prisoners wore normal clothing, participated in cooperative self-government with staff, and took academic courses with instructors from Emerson, Boston University and Harvard. They ran a newspaper, radio show and jazz orchestra, and they had access to an extensive library.

Norfolk had such a good reputation, Malcolm X asked to be transferred there from Charlestown State Prison in Boston so, as he wrote in his petition, he could use “the educational facilities that aren’t in these other institutions.” At Norfolk, “there are many things that I would like to learn that would be of use to me when I regain my freedom.” After Malcolm X’s request was granted, he joined the famous Norfolk Debate Society, through which inmates connected to students at Harvard and other universities.

Researchers from the Bureau of Prisons emulated this model when they created a prison college project in the 1960s. It allowed incarcerated people throughout the country to serve their sentences at a single site, designed like a college campus, and take classes full-time. Although the project was never completed, San Quentin State Prison in California created a scaled-down version with support from the Ford Foundation, and it was one of the few prisons then that offered higher education classes.

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Today, only a third of all prisons provide ways for incarcerated people to continue their educations beyond high school. But the San Quentin Prison University Project remains one of the country’s most vibrant educational programs for inmates, so much so President Barack Obama awarded it a National Humanities Medal in 2015 for the quality of its courses.

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The idea of expanding educational opportunities to prisoners as a way to reduce recidivism and government spending has again gained momentum. That’s partly because of a study published in 2013 by the right-leaning RAND Corporation showing that inmates who took classes had a 43 percent lower likelihood of recidivism and a 13 percent higher likelihood of getting a job after leaving prison.

Lawmakers have rightly recognized the wisdom in turning prisons into colleges. In 2015, Mr. Obama created the Second Chance Pell Pilot Program, which has enrolled more than 12,000 incarcerated students in higher education programs at 67 different schools. The Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions is considering permanently reinstating Pell Grants for incarcerated students, who lost access to federal scholarships under the 1994 crime bill. Even Education Secretary Betsy DeVos calls providing prisoners with the chance to earn a degree “a very good and interesting possibility.”

This is no small matter. If we believe education is a civil right that improves society and increases civic engagement, then the purpose of prison education shouldn’t be about training people to develop marketable skills for the global economy. Instead, learning gives us a different understanding of ourselves and the world around us, and it provides us tools to become more empathetic. That’s why prisons with educational programs are often safer, and why there is a stronger correlation between educational levels and voting than with socioeconomic background.

Mass incarceration is inextricably linked to mass undereducation in America. Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Georgetown, Wesleyan and New York University are among a handful of institutions that realize this and have begun to create ways for incarcerated people to take college classes. These universities recognize that they have a moral responsibility to pursue educational justice for prisoners, a group that has disproportionately attended under-resourced public schools.

College presidents across the country emphasize the importance of “diversity, inclusion and belonging,” and they are reckoning with their institutions’ ties to slavery. Expanding prison education programs would link those two ventures in a forward-thinking way. It’s clear that education will continue to be a central part of criminal justice reform. The question we should ask ourselves is not “Will incarcerated students transform the university?” The better question is, “Will colleges begin to address and reflect the world around them?”

With some careful planning and strategy, I could get behind this. There would need to be qualifiers for it. First they need to know the current education level of the prisoner. They may need to complete high school courses in some cases before being offered higher education.

You would also need to consider the crime, and release date for the prisoner. If they are a lifer, then nah. But if they are doing something like 5- 20 years, then it may be a worthy investment.

Also, for those who are making blanket statements about being able to violate the law in a small way in order to get free education, there is a difference between Jail, and Prison. Small offenses often end up in county jail. Big stuff ends up in prison, as in, you will be there for many years. Those would be the ones this should be aimed at.

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Even if they get a college degree, will they be hired with a record?

And what's a college degree even worth anymore? Especially in a shrinking job market, why would you want even more competition?

There are many levels to education. For adults, there is the simply highschool level. There is the community college level where you are basically just learning your basic academics at a higher level, and a bit about a career focus. Then there is the bachelors level of education where you learn your career on a deeper level. Then there is master which puts you at the highest level of education in your career focus.

That is 4 levels to work towards. There is no reason to assume a prisoner will jump from highschool education to a bachelors or masters. Take them at least to the highschool level first. Then the community college level. If they want to pursue further education after they are released, that can be up to them. But at minimum, they should ensure the prisoners have a highschool level of education if they want to do any sort of reform/improvement for the prisoners.