Unsure To Stay Or Leave

[Smokinya]

Something similar also happens at the job I work at. Boss constantly sends out condescending emails and treats everyone like children despite the fact that he doesn't even know how his own company works. Luckily its just a part-time job that I'm working at while getting my degree and the emails are only really present in the summer when he's actually around the office.

Now onto your issue. My first piece of advice is do not quit your job until you find another one. I know this may seem like common sense, but you'd be surprised how many people don't take that into consideration. My second piece of advice is that you need to listen to what your gut is telling you. The fact that you're coming on here asking for advice means that you've already made up your mind, you're just afraid to make the choice. For example, I usually tell my friends that if you try to make a relationship work with someone and eventually you get to the point where you're asking yourself if you should break up with them you should do it. Simply questioning something like this means you've already made the choice. In my opinion you already know what you want, you just want the support of other people to help you make a hard choice.

You know what you want to do, so do it. Life's too short to deal with bullshit all the time and although its impossible to be happy all the time you should hopefully be a ray of sunshine most of the time. I cannot make the choice for you and I won't tell you what to do. Wishing you the best of luck no matter if you stay or go.

- - - Updated - - -

It turns out I was not 100% correct on the scope - the only people emailed were those who had been on the list. I didn't go out of my way to compare the huge number of "to:'s" in the header to the list of emails in the message.

That said, my direct boss, part of the merger (so I've known him for nearly a decade) asked me for a copy of the email and is going to talk to his boss and the owner about it. So things are looking up!

That's good news, but personally I still think everyone should've gotten a private email. Its still public shaming, but on a smaller scale.

[Nihilist74]

It's funny how in the US the employee apparently doesnt have any rights. Baffles my mind

That is because we vote for politicians who want to deregulate everything and kill unions. Most of the people in this country have to work for a living and none of them think to vote for a politician who supports laborer's. If you think like that, they call you a communist.

[Narwal]

I worked for one company as a senior developer for nearly 9 years. Middle of last year we were bought by a larger company and our clients/projects moved with. For the most part, my day-to-day life didn't change except that I had to purchase a car and commute twice a week to our office 35 miles away. The other days we're all allowed to telecommute.

There have been a lot of advantages to working at the "new" company. We get overtime for the billable hours we work at our salary rate, which is somewhere around $51 an hour for me. There are team events regularly that are a lot of fun to go to. We get to work with new clients, projects, and technologies, which is really nice since at the prior company I had been stuck on a classic WinForms application for the entire 9 years; it wasn't until we moved to the new company that I finally got to tackle MVC, jQuery, Ajax, and RESTful services. I've picked up more projects and team members to manage, which is great for me from a growth perspective.

However, recent events have put into question if I can tolerate staying there. The first is that they monitor us using spyware to record everything we do, down to on-the-minute screenshots. I can overlook that, since I get that they're trying to protect themselves and their clients. However, when you add that to the following issues, it might become clear why I'm concerned.

The company liked to send shaming emails to all 200+ employees across the 3 companies that comprise the full organization for anyone who failed to submit their timesheet in time. To me, that's a private thing. That is something you work out with the offender, you don't shame them. After an outcry, they limited these shaming emails to just the particular company in the organization the person works for (I work for the consulting arm). Still, I find that to be very inappropriate.

Second, this happened a day ago. We are all required to do online training courses in security (such as links, emails, attachments, phishing attempts, etc) and we have usually about a month to get them done. They all have a strict deadline. Until the most recent one I usually finished them well within the timeframe necessary. This particular one I didn't. It's due in 3 days (as of yesterday, four) and I've been pushing 50 - 60 hour weeks for the last month and a half due to a big project rollout. What happened is that the entire organization got an email from our head of IT listing everyone who hadn't done the training yet (despite it not being due) and admonishing us to get it done, that they were surprised we took security so lightly. Then, on the heels of that email came an email from the head of the entire organization who blasted us for not getting it done yet (despite not being due yet), said he was unsure of what else we ignored from him, and that we were all on "his radar" which was a "bad thing".

This has put me at the breaking point. I feel frustrated, upset, and annoyed that my caliber is called into question over one security training that isn't even due yet. I've been a software engineer for 18 years. I don't need to be treated like a school child.

My partner and I have been debating what to do. I haven't replied to any of the emails. We've talked about finding a new position, but the problem is that despite this, I like my work. I like my teams, and I like the people I work with. My pay is excellent, and overtime is really the cherry on the top. In addition, we're trying to pay down his student debt as quickly as possible so my salary pays for everything. I obviously can't afford to lose my position.

Knowing all of this, what would you do? Would you just ignore this and keep moving on? Would you speak privately to the people who sent the emails about how you feel about it? Would you find another position elsewhere and move on? Just curious what people think, maybe this is just overblown in my own head and means nothing at all.

I'm a senior software engineer for a large company as well. I wanted to compare your timecard situation with mine. If our weekly timecard is not delivered in time, an email is blasted out to everyone who didn't put in their timecard that week, and to their managers/bosses, basically just saying to get them in. It's not really a shaming thing though, it's a reminder and escalation telling you to get it in immediately so they can bill the appropriate projects. They include managers to make sure they are on top of it as well, situations where you may be out of the office, etc.

It certainly seems to be some issues with leadership style there. It may not even be a question of style, we may be talking about leadership (above you) with poor emotional intelligence. That being said, why let someone else ruin the great opportunity that job is giving you? I'm of the advice that you stick it out, the chances are that bad leaders will eventually get replaced. If you're feeling this way, there are probably a lot of others who are too. The next time the company gives out an anonymous feedback form, make aware your concerns.

[Video Games]

To give an opposite perspective saide from the monitoring thing, I'd stay for the money like i only dream I'd be able to make more than the 13 i do now.

[ghotihook]

I work as a Systems Administrator and the only time we have ever used any kind of a spyware was to try to catch an error that was not showing up in logs. It was taking a screen shot every second.

We have a saying in our IT department. "Don't use IT to fix a management problem" We used to get request to look up internet history, monitor what websites people go to, chat logs etc... But it's been our policy that we will not do those unless there is some kind of large legal implication. Just because some "thinks" someone is wasting their time is not enough of a reason.

I personally wouldn't ever work at a place that monitored every second of my day.

[Darsithis]

Something similar also happens at the job I work at. Boss constantly sends out condescending emails and treats everyone like children despite the fact that he doesn't even know how his own company works. Luckily its just a part-time job that I'm working at while getting my degree and the emails are only really present in the summer when he's actually around the office.

Now onto your issue. My first piece of advice is do not quit your job until you find another one. I know this may seem like common sense, but you'd be surprised how many people don't take that into consideration. My second piece of advice is that you need to listen to what your gut is telling you. The fact that you're coming on here asking for advice means that you've already made up your mind, you're just afraid to make the choice. For example, I usually tell my friends that if you try to make a relationship work with someone and eventually you get to the point where you're asking yourself if you should break up with them you should do it. Simply questioning something like this means you've already made the choice. In my opinion you already know what you want, you just want the support of other people to help you make a hard choice.

You know what you want to do, so do it. Life's too short to deal with bullshit all the time and although its impossible to be happy all the time you should hopefully be a ray of sunshine most of the time. I cannot make the choice for you and I won't tell you what to do. Wishing you the best of luck no matter if you stay or go.

Oh I would never quit without something lined up, never. That's just foolish. Even at my lowest, at Creeden, when I was forced to sign a document confessing a "crime" I didn't commit, I sucked it up, found a new position, and then left. I didn't just rage quit.

I'm a senior software engineer for a large company as well. I wanted to compare your timecard situation with mine. If our weekly timecard is not delivered in time, an email is blasted out to everyone who didn't put in their timecard that week, and to their managers/bosses, basically just saying to get them in. It's not really a shaming thing though, it's a reminder and escalation telling you to get it in immediately so they can bill the appropriate projects. They include managers to make sure they are on top of it as well, situations where you may be out of the office, etc.

It certainly seems to be some issues with leadership style there. It may not even be a question of style, we may be talking about leadership (above you) with poor emotional intelligence. That being said, why let someone else ruin the great opportunity that job is giving you? I'm of the advice that you stick it out, the chances are that bad leaders will eventually get replaced. If you're feeling this way, there are probably a lot of others who are too. The next time the company gives out an anonymous feedback form, make aware your concerns.

Uh in this case I don't think the founder is going to be replaced anytime soon.

Since it's going to be discussed with him I am sure that this will be resolved. After talking to some of my team members (since this happened over the weekend) they've also noted these kind of emails and they say it's more of a knee-jerk reaction to things than a real attempt to sow discord.

I work as a Systems Administrator and the only time we have ever used any kind of a spyware was to try to catch an error that was not showing up in logs. It was taking a screen shot every second.

We have a saying in our IT department. "Don't use IT to fix a management problem" We used to get request to look up internet history, monitor what websites people go to, chat logs etc... But it's been our policy that we will not do those unless there is some kind of large legal implication. Just because some "thinks" someone is wasting their time is not enough of a reason.

I personally wouldn't ever work at a place that monitored every second of my day.

Yeah you know, for a regular consulting place, sure. However, we're a multi-purpose organization that includes accounting services, so I know the monitoring is in place to avoid people stealing other companies financial secrets. I'm actually on board with it for the most part, I just don't do anything personal using a work machine. If I need to access Facebook or do something not-work-related I just use my cell phone.

[ghotihook]

Yeah you know, for a regular consulting place, sure. However, we're a multi-purpose organization that includes accounting services, so I know the monitoring is in place to avoid people stealing other companies financial secrets. I'm actually on board with it for the most part, I just don't do anything personal using a work machine. If I need to access Facebook or do something not-work-related I just use my cell phone.

It really just depends on how it's used. If managers can use it to check up on employees it's bad. If it's only used for legal reasons than it's not so bad.

[Darsithis]

I'm a senior software engineer for a large company as well. I wanted to compare your timecard situation with mine. If our weekly timecard is not delivered in time, an email is blasted out to everyone who didn't put in their timecard that week, and to their managers/bosses, basically just saying to get them in. It's not really a shaming thing though, it's a reminder and escalation telling you to get it in immediately so they can bill the appropriate projects. They include managers to make sure they are on top of it as well, situations where you may be out of the office, etc..

Yeah one point on this - true - timecards are very important. It's how we get paid. They can't charge a client without having a timecard to back it up. However, as software people (both of us), we're both quite aware that you can easily limit those emails to the people who have actually failed to submit them (these are nightly for us). For instance, you could send the email to the person and their direct manager, and if, say, we reach 2 or 3 days without submitting it, start copying the next level up. It's not at all important for me to know that some dude sitting 5 desks away from me is two days overdue on their timecard.

[Unholyground]

Grab some people you trust and make your own business, you don't get ahead working for someone else. Also I am sure you have made contacts since you have been there.

[Talon8669]

I worked for one company as a senior developer for nearly 9 years. Middle of last year we were bought by a larger company and our clients/projects moved with. For the most part, my day-to-day life didn't change except that I had to purchase a car and commute twice a week to our office 35 miles away. The other days we're all allowed to telecommute.

There have been a lot of advantages to working at the "new" company. We get overtime for the billable hours we work at our salary rate, which is somewhere around $51 an hour for me. There are team events regularly that are a lot of fun to go to. We get to work with new clients, projects, and technologies, which is really nice since at the prior company I had been stuck on a classic WinForms application for the entire 9 years; it wasn't until we moved to the new company that I finally got to tackle MVC, jQuery, Ajax, and RESTful services. I've picked up more projects and team members to manage, which is great for me from a growth perspective.

However, recent events have put into question if I can tolerate staying there. The first is that they monitor us using spyware to record everything we do, down to on-the-minute screenshots. I can overlook that, since I get that they're trying to protect themselves and their clients. However, when you add that to the following issues, it might become clear why I'm concerned.

The company liked to send shaming emails to all 200+ employees across the 3 companies that comprise the full organization for anyone who failed to submit their timesheet in time. To me, that's a private thing. That is something you work out with the offender, you don't shame them. After an outcry, they limited these shaming emails to just the particular company in the organization the person works for (I work for the consulting arm). Still, I find that to be very inappropriate.

Second, this happened a day ago. We are all required to do online training courses in security (such as links, emails, attachments, phishing attempts, etc) and we have usually about a month to get them done. They all have a strict deadline. Until the most recent one I usually finished them well within the timeframe necessary. This particular one I didn't. It's due in 3 days (as of yesterday, four) and I've been pushing 50 - 60 hour weeks for the last month and a half due to a big project rollout. What happened is that the entire organization got an email from our head of IT listing everyone who hadn't done the training yet (despite it not being due) and admonishing us to get it done, that they were surprised we took security so lightly. Then, on the heels of that email came an email from the head of the entire organization who blasted us for not getting it done yet (despite not being due yet), said he was unsure of what else we ignored from him, and that we were all on "his radar" which was a "bad thing".

This has put me at the breaking point. I feel frustrated, upset, and annoyed that my caliber is called into question over one security training that isn't even due yet. I've been a software engineer for 18 years. I don't need to be treated like a school child.

My partner and I have been debating what to do. I haven't replied to any of the emails. We've talked about finding a new position, but the problem is that despite this, I like my work. I like my teams, and I like the people I work with. My pay is excellent, and overtime is really the cherry on the top. In addition, we're trying to pay down his student debt as quickly as possible so my salary pays for everything. I obviously can't afford to lose my position.

Knowing all of this, what would you do? Would you just ignore this and keep moving on? Would you speak privately to the people who sent the emails about how you feel about it? Would you find another position elsewhere and move on? Just curious what people think, maybe this is just overblown in my own head and means nothing at all.

As someone who owns a small business, roughly 30+ employees, I tend to find the biggest issue I have is people not speaking their minds. Harboring things and then hitting a breaking point before coming to me to discuss. Usually once the discussion is over, everyone moves on and there are no further issues. Why people wait so damn long just frustrates the hell out of me, due to the fact that I look at everyone here as part of a family and I want them to enjoy their work and live good happy lives. If work is a cause for major stress I want to work that out, and honestly sometimes, the best solution is for them to move on and if I can help them find other work I usually do. That said, you situation is different as the company as a whole is much more massive and the superiors may not have the time, desire or even 2 shits to give. I would still advocating reaching out and having a 1 on 1 phone call or in person meeting to discuss the matter. They may very well not know fully how they are making their employees feel. On the flip side, they could just say fuck it and start to cut you out and eventually replace you....IDK. But for me, I always speak my mind, tactfully but truthfully. Be honest about how these behaviors make you feel, comment on your commitment to the company and ask in a respective manner but stern for change.

[Acidbaron]

If you like the work you do, then just ignore the e-mail. Maybe next time don't wait till the last minute to get it done. If you're only working 50-60 hours per week that leaves plenty of time to get training finished in a timely fashion.

"only" 50 to 60 hours what kind of slave factory do you work at?

[EyelessCrow]

"only" 50 to 60 hours what kind of slave factory do you work at?

I did an internship at a business where the manager took me into a one on one meeting once and mentioned "80 hour work weeks end up becoming the norm for this team". I started looking around after that and noticed how stressed people were. Some people would be sweating they were so stressed out. Some of them made good money but guys like me where they try and get me before I am even done with school they underpay. I decided the stress wasn't worth it and moved on.

I should have known something was up when I went to the clinic (healthcare IT company where we had our own doctor's offices and pharmacy) and they prescribed me anti-depressants and the girl behind the counter goes "oh sure, one second" and opens up a drawer with literally hundreds of prepackaged bottles of anti-depressants. My mom has a counselor friend who told her that company loads their workers up with that shit.

I guess my point is, money is one thing. Even if trying to pay off loans. You will have to decide if you want to be happier and possible make a little less (or you might even make more) money. Or be miserable and make what you are making now and possible having that misery bleed into other aspects of your life. That stress can take it's toll. Trust me.

[Darsithis]

"only" 50 to 60 hours what kind of slave factory do you work at?

Yeah I thought that was kind of silly. It's one thing to have a crunch time here and there where you work a lot of extra hours, but to maintain a 50+ hour week every week is very difficult.

I did an internship at a business where the manager took me into a one on one meeting once and mentioned "80 hour work weeks end up becoming the norm for this team". I started looking around after that and noticed how stressed people were. Some people would be sweating they were so stressed out. Some of them made good money but guys like me where they try and get me before I am even done with school they underpay. I decided the stress wasn't worth it and moved on.

I should have known something was up when I went to the clinic (healthcare IT company where we had our own doctor's offices and pharmacy) and they prescribed me anti-depressants and the girl behind the counter goes "oh sure, one second" and opens up a drawer with literally hundreds of prepackaged bottles of anti-depressants. My mom has a counselor friend who told her that company loads their workers up with that shit.

I guess my point is, money is one thing. Even if trying to pay off loans. You will have to decide if you want to be happier and possible make a little less (or you might even make more) money. Or be miserable and make what you are making now and possible having that misery bleed into other aspects of your life. That stress can take it's toll. Trust me.

That sounds just fucking awful. 80 hour work weeks? You might as well just live at the office.

[Acidbaron]

I did an internship at a business where the manager took me into a one on one meeting once and mentioned "80 hour work weeks end up becoming the norm for this team". I started looking around after that and noticed how stressed people were. Some people would be sweating they were so stressed out. Some of them made good money but guys like me where they try and get me before I am even done with school they underpay. I decided the stress wasn't worth it and moved on.

I should have known something was up when I went to the clinic (healthcare IT company where we had our own doctor's offices and pharmacy) and they prescribed me anti-depressants and the girl behind the counter goes "oh sure, one second" and opens up a drawer with literally hundreds of prepackaged bottles of anti-depressants. My mom has a counselor friend who told her that company loads their workers up with that shit.

I guess my point is, money is one thing. Even if trying to pay off loans. You will have to decide if you want to be happier and possible make a little less (or you might even make more) money. Or be miserable and make what you are making now and possible having that misery bleed into other aspects of your life. That stress can take it's toll. Trust me.

I doubt those working 80 hours under those conditions are making a lot. I dare to go even to say that people willing to undergo that have a rather low view of their worth.
I worked 80 hours before but it was the exception and i generally don't work for smaller firms anymore, i go for bigger companies, with unions and a whole list of worker rights.

I find the whole premise of internships to be nothing more than a structure for companies to abuse low experience employees as temp grunt work forces.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah I thought that was kind of silly. It's one thing to have a crunch time here and there where you work a lot of extra hours, but to maintain a 50+ hour week every week is very difficult.

to be honest i sometimes have overtime and sometimes i have to go in on a saturday or sunday but i'm paid between 150 to 200% of my regular wage when i do. What i either cash out or save up to take back when i need time off, cause taxes in the EU in general are rather high on over time once you pass a certain wage barrier.

[Babadoo]

Don't let them walk over you, they probably wouldn't fire you if you stood up for your rights but it might make them respect you. It's like bullies in school, you can only beat them with their own weapon.

[vindicatorx]

I also work in the software development field about the same size by the sound of it. My company was great 2 years ago and has pretty much changed a lot of policies to short us on perks like PTO and bonus OT pay. Now, they are suggesting we all get Salesforce certs regardless if you are a CRM dev or not. They want us to get these on our own time if we are on a project. I've averaged 50 hours OT a month since November and the way it works for us is we get a set amount for hours over and when you break it down it's an insulting $15 an hour and some people can tell them no, while newer people like myself have no choice but to do it. They changed the way PTO works this year and instead of it rolling over annually we now reset to zero. So of course everyone was gone the majority of December burning their OT and it caused some issues. To counter that they have advised us of three new unofficial policies for PTO. 1) They want us to take 40 hours of PTO a quarter. 2) if we are benched for more than a week they want us to use PTO until it's out. 3) they only want us to use PTO when on the bench. I haven't been benched in 2 years and the contract with our client has been extended another year. I'm putting my resume out this month because I've had enough of the BS. I won't quit till I have a new job but, yeah if you are unhappy with the changes find a new place. There are so many of companies similar to these it's not funny.

[Laerrus]

This has put me at the breaking point. I feel frustrated, upset, and annoyed that my caliber is called into question over one security training that isn't even due yet. I've been a software engineer for 18 years. I don't need to be treated like a school child.

My partner and I have been debating what to do. I haven't replied to any of the emails. We've talked about finding a new position, but the problem is that despite this, I like my work. I like my teams, and I like the people I work with. My pay is excellent, and overtime is really the cherry on the top. In addition, we're trying to pay down his student debt as quickly as possible so my salary pays for everything. I obviously can't afford to lose my position.

It sounds that despite some annoyances, that might end up being temporary, you still enjoy working there. I would hold out and wait for karma to come around.

If you find that the stress of dealing with the problems at work is starting to affect your happiness in your home life, then I would consider putting in your resume elsewhere.

[Darsithis]

How have you survived in the tech industry 9 years? In the grand scheme of things, those are all relatively minor... especially for a company that lets you telecommute for more than half your work week constantly.

I mean... In the end, you do what's best for you. If it were me, I wouldn't leave over the things you mentioned.

I've been in the industry for far longer than 9 years.

Perhaps I've just been sheltered. So far almost every company I've ever worked for has been pretty small. Culture has been tight, and everyone has been encouraged to be friends. Hell, my boss, my former CEO, is a personal friend who I've spent plenty of off-work time with, including his wife and daughter. So, for me, this is not at all normal. I am not used to this kind of treatment.

However, my decision has been to stay. My boss is looking into the email and will talk to management about it. Since I still love my work, the people I work with, and my projects, I don't want to leave.

[Tiwack]

It's funny how in the US the employee apparently doesnt have any rights. Baffles my mind

Nothing funny about it as it's why many are adamant about their right to bear arms to believe themselves safe from exploitation...

At the end of the 19th- and the start of the 20th-century America, in many places when workers tried to unionize or went on strike for better conditions, they were hunted down and lynched or worse.
Still occurs around the world where people are seen as useful idiots, objects fulfilling a function, instead of beings with inherent value and humanity despite their faults.

Power is never handed over willingly. It remains with those who understand it and it's value, meaning they won't willingly share or give it up without a threat.
The future and the wealth of the world already exist, however neither are very evenly distributed.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." JFK

[Jotaux]

I would not stand for being called out on something before it is even due.

One place I worked at had asked me to complete audit files before a particular date. I set my own hours and do most of my work at night. The day before its due I get a text at 10pm from one of the partners reaming me out for not completing the file yet. I am literally inside the file at the time working away when I get the text. I take great pride in my work and meeting deadlines so I am livid and send an email to her, ccing the other partner, explaining that I was given a deadline and I will meet that deadline but I do not appreciate my work being questioned before I have even turned it in.

This same partner also had me set up a file before we were given final figures (I had mentioned to her that I believed it was a waste of time to do so). All my time on that file was questioned a month later and I had to explain that everything I did on that file was directed by the other partner despite my protests. I had already recused myself from the engagement at that point because I was asked to do something else I felt was unethical.

So my advice is to communicate back that you still have time before the deadline and would prefer to be given the allotted time before being shamed.