About the "Desolate Council"

[Dellis0991]

You see her thoughts in the prologue of the next book showing she does. Sylvanas is likely out of all the characters in wow the one whose internal thoughts are there for all to read. Is she amoral, yeh but she has shown that she cares about her peolpe, their survival. The latest book (that will be out in few months) prologue also shows she wants her people to prosper. Her concern with the desolate council is that they seem to be wanting Forsaken extinction. The prologue also shows she still cares about the Blood elves, stating she wanted them up front with her but couldn't show favourites.

Yeah I just read it now, I can only hope she tries to find a way to stop making forsaken and try to find a way to keep the ones she have from slow decaying.

[Deleted]

Problem with this is eventually the Forsaken would die out. Nobody wants to be turned into a fucking undead monstrosity. I imagine eventually the larger Forsaken society would realize that and remove this governing body from power.

Yeah, but if they enforce undead, they simply have no right to exist and it is the moral thing to do for humans to fight them, hunt them, kill them in self defense.

The Forsaken are simply not meant to be. They are not a natural race, they are corpses curses into undeath. They can't procreate without killing sentient human beings and enforce their curse on them, so they shouldn't want to procreate as long as the human doesn't gives his consent before to be turned undead.

The Forsaken simply should live their lives, do what they want and accept that their kind is to die out.

[Kallisto]

Yeah I just read it now, I can only hope she tries to find a way to stop making forsaken and try to find a way to keep the ones she have from slow decaying.

There's nothing inherently wrong with creating undead with free will. It's nothing more than a second birth.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yeah, but if they enforce undead, they simply have no right to exist and it is the moral thing to do for humans to fight them, hunt them, kill them in self defense.

The Forsaken are simply not meant to be. They are not a natural race, they are corpses curses into undeath. They can't procreate without killing sentient human beings and enforce their curse on them, so they shouldn't want to procreate as long as the human doesn't gives his consent before to be turned undead.

The Forsaken simply should live their lives, do what they want and accept that their kind is to die out.

Isillien would be proud.

[omeomorfismo]

Yeah, but if they enforce undead, they simply have no right to exist and it is the moral thing to do for humans to fight them, hunt them, kill them in self defense.

The Forsaken are simply not meant to be. They are not a natural race, they are corpses curses into undeath. They can't procreate without killing sentient human beings and enforce their curse on them, so they shouldn't want to procreate as long as the human doesn't gives his consent before to be turned undead.

The Forsaken simply should live their lives, do what they want and accept that their kind is to die out.

litterally you can translate word by word for human
they are robots cursed to be flesh and they cant live without killing animals and vegetals to eat, destroying the nature around them to create enough confortable places.

and the problem of forsaken population is specifically this, humans in their zealotry still continue to attack and invade them, so they had to replenish their rank to ensure a force strong enough to defend themself.
no light follower would mean no problem for them, unless even druids start a crusade.

[Ash123]

Undead rot is as inconsistent as troll fur. In Lor'themar's short story we got this:

So they do rot or at least the skin becomes way too dry and should start breaking down maybe?

The problem is we do not know how the "low-tier" undead (ones who do not own a death-knight-version body) preserve themself against decay.

If there is clearly detectable decay, either in appearance or through unpleasant odor, there must be some naturally occurred biological decay going on. But if this is the case, the whole forsaken population should already pass into extinction after more than one decade even if they only decay at 1/10th of the natural rate.

So either the undead do not decay (the remaining body parts only wear off through consistent usage), or they have some methods (shadow magic, consumption of certain foods like mushrooms) that can allow limited body regeneration to balance the decay of reaming tissues.

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Yeah, but if they enforce undead, they simply have no right to exist and it is the moral thing to do for humans to fight them, hunt them, kill them in self defense.

The Forsaken are simply not meant to be. They are not a natural race, they are corpses curses into undeath. They can't procreate without killing sentient human beings and enforce their curse on them, so they shouldn't want to procreate as long as the human doesn't gives his consent before to be turned undead.

The Forsaken simply should live their lives, do what they want and accept that their kind is to die out.

Following this argument, the most morally justified action is to allow Ragnaros and his elemental brothers/sisters to wipe out all being in the planet. Nothing can be more natural than elementals.

[JustRob]

I'm sure there's some degree of decay going on, Nathanos got his shiny new body because his undead corpse was in particularly awful state.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm sure there's some degree of decay going on, Nathanos got his shiny new body because his undead corpse was in particularly awful state.

it could a also be wear and tear. Muscle fibers break down, and if you are alive they can heal. if you get gored as an undead it won't heal, unless you get a lot of shadow juice.

[Magnagarde]

Hopefully one day undead humans will be the ones to lead undead humans, not undead high elves.

[Alidfe]

The entire shtick with forsaken is their free will.

Only sometimes though.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Only sometimes though.

If by only sometimes you mean 100% of the time the forsaken have free will.

I am genuinely curious on why some people refuse to believe that. Why would you want it to be any other way?

[Shampro]

If by only sometimes you mean 100% of the time the forsaken have free will.

I am genuinely curious on why some people refuse to believe that. Why would you want it to be any other way?

''Muh Lich Queen doe''

[Zulkhan]

Yeah, but if they enforce undead, they simply have no right to exist and it is the moral thing to do for humans to fight them, hunt them, kill them in self defense.

The Forsaken are simply not meant to be. They are not a natural race, they are corpses curses into undeath. They can't procreate without killing sentient human beings and enforce their curse on them, so they shouldn't want to procreate as long as the human doesn't gives his consent before to be turned undead.

The Forsaken simply should live their lives, do what they want and accept that their kind is to die out.

Raising people from the dead without their consent is nothing particularly immoral, as long the deaths are caused for reasons disconnected from the necessity of "procreating". Only in that case Humans would be justified in defending themselves. If the killing occurrs for other reasons though, it will obviously depend on the reasons that led Humans and Undead to clash against each other. What Forsaken will do with the fallen enemies matter relatively, even though it shall understandably enrage the enemy in question. About the raised people, they're free to take their second chance or die for good. Again, there's nothing terribly immoral about that.

If anything, the real problem if no conflict would arise for a very long time and Forsaken would keep to rot, decay and die for good during that time. If that's the scenario meant to occur, then indeed Forsaken would eventually be forced to kill for survival alone, something that will quickly mark them as a threat. The alternative to that would indeed simply await the moment they all die. Between these two options, achieving real immortality would be both convenient and relatively "moral". Pretty obvious why Sylvanas went with that third option.

[MikeBogina]

Hopefully one day undead humans will be the ones to lead undead humans, not undead high elves.

Like... Arthas?

The Forsaken without Sylvanas would have either been brought back into the Scourge or the Dreadlord's forces. In Frozen Throne she proved to be a great tactical leader and carved out a piece of the kingdoms for these people. I used to think that after we defeated Arthas, some of the human undead would want to bring him back(the people loved him and I can see many undead being able to relate to what happened to him) and after a conflict with Sylvanas, he'd take over but that will never happen.

[TomatoBisque]

If by only sometimes you mean 100% of the time the forsaken have free will.

I am genuinely curious on why some people refuse to believe that. Why would you want it to be any other way?

It's pretty easy to see why people don't believe it

There are multiple quests in game where we see the Forsaken raise people they were just fighting and the newly raised turn on their former allies

To the average person just playing through this looks a lot like people raised by the Forsaken don't have free will, and the only explanation is some Blizzard tweet or something that requires a lot more effort to go find, so only some small % of people who play that quest are going to know about that.

Then on top of that, more probably won't believe it because they don't understand how word of god works plus the explanation is really stupid and is pretty obviously Blizzard making some bullshit excuse for the blunders of whoever wrote those quests

[ello]

The Forsaken are simply not meant to be. They are not a natural race, they are corpses curses into undeath. , so they shouldn't want to procreate as long as the human

Humans, Dwarve, Gnomes et al aren't "meant to be" either. They aren't "natural" races.

They can't procreate without killing sentient human beings and enforce their curse on them

Countless Humans die everyday without being murdered. I'm sure it seems like everyone dies in battle in the Warcraft universe, but I assure you that's not the case.

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It's pretty easy to see why people don't believe it

There are multiple quests in game where we see the Forsaken raise people they were just fighting and the newly raised turn on their former allies

To the average person just playing through this looks a lot like people raised by the Forsaken don't have free will, and the only explanation is some Blizzard tweet or something that requires a lot more effort to go find, so only some small % of people who play that quest are going to know about that.

Then on top of that, more probably won't believe it because they don't understand how word of god works plus the explanation is really stupid and is pretty obviously Blizzard making some bullshit excuse for the blunders of whoever wrote those quests

Pretty much. Cataclysm was full of poor communication and management for many races/zones including the Forsaken. At least they got some good leveling zones out of it.

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Like... Arthas?

The Forsaken without Sylvanas would have either been brought back into the Scourge or the Dreadlord's forces. In Frozen Throne she proved to be a great tactical leader and carved out a piece of the kingdoms for these people. I used to think that after we defeated Arthas, some of the human undead would want to bring him back(the people loved him and I can see many undead being able to relate to what happened to him) and after a conflict with Sylvanas, he'd take over but that will never happen.

I always though "only undead humans should lead the forsaken1!1!" was a dumb complaint. They don't give a damn about what race you were in your past life(which is why they are willing to accept races like Leper Gnomes into the fold). As soon as you bend the knee it doesn't matter what race you used to be, your identity is now Forsaken. If anything the Undead story should logically have more Elves in it considering Arthas plowed through 90% of them in the third war.

[Deleted]

Humans, Dwarve, Gnomes et al aren't "meant to be" either. They aren't "natural" races.



Countless Humans die everyday without being murdered. I'm sure it seems like everyone dies in battle in the Warcraft universe, but I assure you that's not the case.

And like I said, if the Forsaken would simply just defend themselves and only turn humans who consent to being turned into undeads, I would be fine with it. I mean, if Undeath is so great that Forsaken want to creat more and more undead and preserve undeath on Azeroth, I'm sure that there would be no problem only turning those who come to the forsaken and ask to be turned undead after their death?

[MikeBogina]

I always though "only undead humans should lead the forsaken1!1!" was a dumb complaint. They don't give a damn about what race you were in your past life(which is why they are willing to accept races like Leper Gnomes into the fold). As soon as you bend the knee it doesn't matter what race you used to be, your identity is now Forsaken. If anything the Undead story should logically have more Elves in it considering Arthas plowed through 90% of them in the third war.

Yeah the undead elves is one of those things that you never see, but they have to be there. The only ones we have are tied to classes like dark ranger or death knight, so there should still be more. I almost used to think that some Forsaken were meant to be elves back in vanilla, kinda like how Sylvanas used a night elf model.

But yeah, the concept of Forsaken, regardless of race is a strong thing with them. I actually think it's a huge waste to not have the Forsaken have more leaders who are powerful undead members from all over the world. Sylvanas could give the players a quest to go grave rob some people like Bolvar is doing and add people like Edwin Vancleef to lead the rogues, Rend to lead the warriors and say someone like Antonidas to lead the casters. I just think the Forsaken need a lot more and not necessarily for Sylvanas' war but the faction itself just needs to grow.

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And like I said, if the Forsaken would simply just defend themselves and only turn humans who consent to being turned into undeads, I would be fine with it. I mean, if Undeath is so great that Forsaken want to creat more and more undead and preserve undeath on Azeroth, I'm sure that there would be no problem only turning those who come to the forsaken and ask to be turned undead after their death?

The funny thing about it, is there's characters who fought to the death to kill the forsaken, not just people who happen to get caught in it, but people who hated them so much, that then die and become Forsaken and they now fight the Alliance.

[Deleted]

The funny thing about it, is there's characters who fought to the death to kill the forsaken, not just people who happen to get caught in it, but people who hated them so much, that then die and become Forsaken and they now fight the Alliance.

Because of plot convenience and Horde Pushing. I mean, yeah its believable that people who got murdered by the Forsaken would join them. I'm also absolutely sure that tons of people who get tortured by regimes become absolutely loyal through that instead of just hating them more.

[MikeBogina]

Because of plot convenience and Horde Pushing. I mean, yeah its believable that people who got murdered by the Forsaken would join them. I'm also absolutely sure that tons of people who get tortured by regimes become absolutely loyal through that instead of just hating them more.

yeah, or maybe being Forsaken is just awesome and all the haters realize the mistake they were making

No it really just is in the nature of being undead. You're basically taken over by an evil clone who thinks they're you.