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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    Nunes was not on the side of truth. His actions prove that. Any independent minded person understands that very basic concept.

    His committee was run like shit, and as such their conclusions are suspect at best, bordering on treason at worst.
    Theeeere we go.
    Last edited by Sky High; 2018-03-13 at 01:37 AM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    Thought you weren't claiming anyone was biased? Dress it up however you want, the GOP Majority has not acted in good faith and have left avenues of the investigation entirely unexplored. They're now disputing intelligence reports and trying to claim that Clinton was the beneficiary of Russian interference. If you can't admit that that is partisan behaviour then I guess we know which of the two categories you find yourself in.
    I did not intend to ascribe belief one way or the other on partisanship, that was a word you used. I simply spoke of "anti-collusion" and "pro-collusion" "sides" (people who believe Trump-Russia collusion occurred, and those who do not). I did not ascribe these "sides" to Republicans or Democrats, liberals or conservatives.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    I did not intend to ascribe belief one way or the other on partisanship, that was a word you used. I simply spoke of "anti-collusion" and "pro-collusion" "sides" (people who believe Trump-Russia collusion occurred, and those who do not). I did not ascribe these "sides" to Republicans or Democrats, liberals or conservatives.
    Whether you mentioned political parties or not doesn't change anything. Reducing the argument to an "Us vs Them" is dishonest as it ignores the facts of the matter and insinuates bad faith due to bias on both sides when both sides are not equally culpable. I'm sure it's a coincidence though that the "no collusion" side is primarily GOP.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    Whether you mentioned political parties or not doesn't change anything. Reducing the argument to an "Us vs Them" is dishonest as it ignores the facts of the matter and insinuates bad faith due to bias on both sides when both sides are not equally culpable. I'm sure it's a coincidence though that the "no collusion" side is primarily GOP.
    I'm simply trying to point out that the people who think Trump-Russia collusion is a dead-end farce are going to be emboldened by this news, and hand-wave away any counterpoints ("Failed to interview more witnesses? That's because they already had all the information they needed to show it was nonsense!"), while all the people who believe Trump-Russia is waiting to be uncovered will point to the actions the committee didn't take, point to actions they've taken that throw into question their impartiality, and so forth.

    This isn't an equal-footing, both-sides-have-merit argument I'm making here, it's an explanatory description of how this news will not make a big splash among politically-interested people.

    Mueller will be a different story.

    Edit: Looking back, this is probably the most hilariously ill-conceived response I've ever posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Definitely not trying to imply any bias, simply stating that each side will see what they want to see.
    Last edited by Dacien; 2018-03-13 at 02:20 AM.

  5. #65
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    You have to ignore realty to think that they're somehow equal. The Republicans spent all their time attacking the intelligence community and failing to gather information.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well you'er wrong and your opinion lacks consistency with all information. That's called ignorance.
    Well, she got her ass kicked in the Election and OJ spent several years in prison. That's called Karma.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    I'm simply trying to point out that the people who think Trump-Russia collusion is a dead-end farce are going to be emboldened by this news, and hand-wave away any counterpoints ("Failed to interview more witnesses? That's because they already had all the information they needed to show it was nonsense!"), while all the people who believe Trump-Russia is waiting to be uncovered will point to the actions the committee didn't take, point to actions they've taken that throw into question their impartiality, and so forth.

    This isn't an equal-footing, both-sides-have-merit argument I'm making here, it's an explanatory description of how this news will not make a big splash among politically-interested people.
    That explanation being both sides will see what they want to see to support previously held beliefs (aka both sides are biased). The two positions aren't equatable.

    Mueller will be a different story.
    Again, doubtful. If the GOP is unable to conduct an impartial investigation, it's unlikely they will vote for impeachment if Mueller finds evidence of collusion.

  7. #67
    Mueller Is Said to Weigh Putting Off Trump Obstruction Decision

    Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into whether President Donald Trump obstructed justice is said to be close to completion, but he may set it aside while he finishes other key parts of his probe, such as possible collusion and the hacking of Democrats, according to current and former U.S. officials.
    That’s because Mueller may calculate that if he tries to bring charges in the obstruction case -- the part that may hit closest to Trump personally -- witnesses may become less cooperative in other parts of the probe, or the president may move to shut it down altogether.
    The revelation is a peek into Mueller’s calculations as he proceeds with his many-headed probe, while pressure builds from the president’s advisers and other Republicans to show progress or wrap it up.

    ------------------------------------
    Lot more in that link...He pretty much think he can catch a lot more if the probe stays open.

  8. #68
    Whew! The long nightmare is over.

    Last edited by Paranoid Android; 2018-03-13 at 02:21 AM.
    Democrats are the best! I will never ever question a Democrat again. I LOVE the Democrats!

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    That explanation being both sides will see what they want to see to support previously held beliefs (aka both sides are biased). The two positions aren't equatable.
    And I think that's true. We don't have the report, we don't know why they didn't interview Manafort or others, we don't know how they drew their conclusions, yet we have people on both sides of Trump-Russia alternatively claiming victory or casting aspersions on the committee. Rendering judgement without all the facts seems to imply bias.


    Again, doubtful. If the GOP is unable to conduct an impartial investigation, it's unlikely they will vote for impeachment if Mueller finds evidence of collusion.
    It doesn't matter how the impeachment goes, it matters what the outcome of the investigation is. A bombshell Mueller indictment indicating criminal collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia will destroy Trump, impeachment or not.
    Last edited by Dacien; 2018-03-13 at 02:22 AM.

  10. #70
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    Congress wouldn't be able to determine this either way, which is why it was and still is ( for the Senate investigation ) a waste of time to try and look for collusion.

    Only Mueller has the necessary resources to prove it one way or another.
    Last edited by CostinR; 2018-03-13 at 03:41 AM.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

  11. #71
    Titan Lenonis's Avatar
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    There was never any doubt the house investigation would end this way.

    I mean from the very begin Nunes made this whole thing into a sham.

    Also, this is only one of 8 or 9 investigations we need to really get to the bottom of what happened in Bengaz...*cough*...Trump-russia.
    Forum badass alert:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    It's called resistance / rebellion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    Also, one day the tables might turn.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Rendering judgement without all the facts seems to imply bias.
    Yet you won't criticize the Majority for it. We don't need a definitive answer to whether Trump colluded to discern that the Majority has acted in bad faith. Nunes behaviour alone is enough to prove that. Hell, people on the Majority disagree with it's findings.

    It doesn't matter how the impeachment goes, it matters what the outcome of the investigation is.
    And if the GOP are unwilling to be impartial then the outcome of the investigation doesn't matter because nothing will be done about it.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    Yet you won't criticize the Majority for it. We don't need a definitive answer to whether Trump colluded to discern that the Majority has acted in bad faith. Nunes behaviour alone is enough to prove that. Hell, people on the Majority disagree with it's findings.
    I'm not trying to go one way or the other. Our entire dialogue was birthed out of my remark about the fact that people who agree with the notion of Trump-Russia will see this as a partisan committee finding in disfavor over such, and people who question Trump-Russia seeing this as further confirmation that it isn't substantive.

    I'm not personally investing myself either way in this discussion.

    And if the GOP are unwilling to be impartial then the outcome of the investigation doesn't matter because nothing will be done about it.
    I disagree. A Mueller bombshell implicating anyone of import in the Trump campaign to Russian collusion will be simply disastrous for the administration.
    Last edited by Dacien; 2018-03-13 at 02:52 AM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    I'm not trying to go one way or the other. Our entire dialogue was birthed out of my remark about the fact that people who agree with the notion of Trump-Russia will see this as a partisan committee finding in disfavor over such, and people who question Trump-Russia seeing this as further confirmation of that it isn't substantive.
    Which is just excusing bad faith by claiming both sides are biased.


    I disagree. A Mueller bombshell implicating anyone of import in the Trump campaign to Russian collusion will be simply disastrous for the administration.
    Why? They're now disputing the intelligence report and have been attacking the FBI and DOJ for a while now. All they have to do is muddy the waters with another phony memo that the rubes will eat up.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    It doesn't matter how the impeachment goes, it matters what the outcome of the investigation is. A bombshell Mueller indictment indicating criminal collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia will destroy Trump, impeachment or not.
    Bullshit it would destroy Trump - you and your alt-right ilk would just defend him like always. No-one believes your shitatsic attempts to appear neutral. Fuck, Ally is way better at it than you are and he blows ass.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    Which is just excusing bad faith by claiming both sides are biased.
    I'm not trying to claim either side is biased, or not biased, I'm not trying to make that claim. I'm trying to describe how events will unfold. I'm trying to describe the reality. When I say that pro-collusion entities (people who believe there was Trump-Russia collusion) will disapprove of the committee conclusion, that's not a declaration of bias, that's a declaration of fact. I'm not saying they will disapprove of it because of bias, or because of a lack of bias, or because of partisanship, or a lack of partisanship, I'm simply stating the fact that they will do so, for whatever reason.

    Find me someone who thought the Trump campaign colluded with Russia who now believes, upon the conclusion of the committee investigation, that they, in fact, did not.

    Find me someone who did not think the Trump campaign colluded with Russia who now believes, upon the conclusion of the committee investigation, that they, in fact, did.

    These people either don't exist, or exist in very small number. I'm not ascribing this to bias, or partisanship, or anything else, simply that that is the way people on either side are going to interpret the committee ending it's investigation.



    Why? They're now disputing the intelligence report and have been attacking the FBI and DOJ for a while now. All they have to do is muddy the waters with another phony memo that the rubes will eat up.
    Well, the intelligence report was a judgment, after all. That is, a belief, not something provable. Unless we're talking about different reports. I'm talking about this one:

    https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Togashii View Post
    Bullshit it would destroy Trump - you and your alt-right ilk would just defend him like always. No-one believes your shitatsic attempts to appear neutral. Fuck, Ally is way better at it than you are and he blows ass.
    Believe it or not, a large portion of people that skittishly support Trump do so because they kinda like what he's doing, kinda, and will jump ship if he's found to have committed criminal acts, either personally or through his campaign, to influence the election. If you think the entirety of his support base are all rabid MAGA hat-wearing Trumpites, you're wrong.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    Believe it or not, a large portion of people that skittishly support Trump do so because they kinda like what he's doing, kinda, and will jump ship if he's found to have committed criminal acts, either personally or through his campaign, to influence the election. If you think the entirety of his support base are all rabid MAGA hat-wearing Trumpites, you're wrong.
    People have been expecting moderate and sensible Republicans to reclaim their party from the Trumpists since he announced his candidacy. It hasn't happened so far and I wouldn't hold my breath on it happening anytime soon.

  19. #79
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Well, she got her ass kicked in the Election and OJ spent several years in prison. That's called Karma.
    Hillary didn't get her ass kicked in the elections, and the only thing skewed is your moral compass at this point, there is no way anybody in good conscience is still defending Trump or buys this pure partisan bullshit.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  20. #80
    I'm guessing their probe was them looking around in the room they were currently in, going. "I don't see any evidence, do you see any evidence?" and shaking their heads and shrugging at each other.

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