How Can PvP Be Realistically Improved?

[Dmitro]

I see " PvP is at its worst" every expansion. -_-"

because it was going downhill since cata, so this phrase is... truth.
cata was worse and more casual that wotlk, mop was more bizzare and arcade than cata, wod was more pruned than mop and legions is just a disgrace.

[Whitedragon]

I agree that many BGs are trash, esp older ones.

But gameplay-wise BGs and arenas are quite different. In BGs dying is a part of experience, everyone dies and then they simply respawn, moreover dying and killing faster allows for a more interesting gameplay, comebacks and stuff. Whereas in arenas death is the worst thing that can happen, it means that classes need to be able to stay alive for much and much longer.

IDk, War song gulch is still my favorite BG to this day.

[Dmitro]

They could always try making PvP rewarding. A balance patch more than once every six months might help too.

good points, but they are really minor comparing to the MAIN reason why people dont pvp as much, I am sure you ll guess it instantly

[ls-]

Also, Blizz should do something about GY/respawn camping, in other PvP games respawn locations are safe houses, enemy team can't enter them or even get near them, in WoW, however, there's no restrictions, even if they can't be entered they can be easily AoEd, WSG is prob the worst offender.

[Schattenlied]

nope, it is relevant, because both in cata and mop (already with rbgs), their participation was lower than arena's, simply due to the fact arenas were more fun to play and more prestigious, today rbgs are more popular only because arenas are utter trash, not on its own.

Did I specify RATED battlegrounds?

No, no I didn't. I said Battlegrounds, period, all of them, rated and random both. PvP should be balanced around the most participated in format, which is 10v10+, rated or unrated doesn't matter, it's where the most participation is, by an incredible margin, and always has been.

[Dmitro]

Did I specify RATED battlegrounds?

No, no I didn't. I said Battlegrounds, period, all of them, rated and random both. PvP should be balanced around the most participated in format

Nope, its a dumb approach and will only lead to futher pruning and dumbization of the pvp, they've already tried "lets balance around casual majority",
Lets review the record

wotlk - 1 m rated pvp participation NA - EU
legion - 53k.

Top pvp games like dota and lol balance stuff around competitive scene, in wow pvp its 2800 rated arenas and tournaments, maybe if they copy valve/riot approach more people will participate in PVP. focusing around non-challenging and quite boring random bgs is utterly dumb simply because MOST people do it like 5-10 times a week and then they give up, while arena/rbg fellas spam their brackets all the time.

what is your competence in pvp btw, any arena titles or smth?

[Schattenlied]

Nope, its a dumb approach and will only lead to futher pruning and dumbization of the pvp

no, it won't.

They are still balancing around competitive, not casual, just balancing around a different number of players. They would be balancing around 10v10 so that Rated BGs can be the competitive focus, while simultaneously balancing the most popular and populated form of PvP, which is random BGs, but the balance focus would still be on ranked, not randoms. Two birds, one stone. Making the most populated form of PvP more balanced would make even more people enjoy it, while simultaneously making Rated BGs balanced, and competitive, which in turn makes less of the general playerbase cancel subs out of boredom.

Top pvp games like dota and lol balance stuff around competitive scene, in wow pvp its 2800 rated arenas and tournaments, maybe if they copy valve/riot approach more people will participate in PVP.

The above would be copying the valve/riot method... They balance around competitive within the same format as their casual mode (in their case, 5v5). You can't copy it unless your casual mode and your comp mode have the same format, and WoW's casual mode will NEVER not be battlegrounds, random arenas are almost never touched and nothing will ever change that because people simply do not like 3v3 as much as BGs. With Rated Battlegrounds being the focus instead of Arenas this would be accomplished. Would be more interesting to watch too, IMO, than 6 people humping pillars for 15 minutes... Also if vastly more people prefer playing BGs, it stands to reason vastly more people would prefer watching BGs as an Esport instead of Arenas.


This is the logical course of action. You do not balance all PvP around the least participated venue when the most populated also has a competitive mode... You balance around the most populated format's competitive mode, which is 10v10.

To use your example... Imagine if Riot and Valve balanced their games around 3v3, instead of 5v5, while 5v5 is the by far most populated format... Where is the logic in that? There is none. Balance where the people are playing, not where they aren't.

what is your competence in pvp btw, any arena titles or smth?

There is exactly zero point in me saying anything here, since I could just lie my ass off and you'd have no way to contest it, or tell the truth and you claim I'm lying just because you don't like my argument.

Bottom line is the above. Balance where the people are playing, not where they aren't. It is not only the best business decision, but the best for the enjoyment of the playerbase as a whole. Balancing around Arenas imbalances the rest of the game, and far too few people care about Arenas for it to be worthwhile to be the focus. I'm sorry if you love the 3v3 format and this hurts you, but you are in an absurdly tiny minority of the WoW PvP community, you are overwhelmingly dwarfed by people who prefer 10v10 in both rated and non-rated.

[ls-]

Top pvp games like dota and lol balance stuff around competitive scene, in wow pvp its 2800 rated arenas and tournaments, maybe if they copy valve/riot approach more people will participate in PVP. focusing around non-challenging and quite boring random bgs is utterly dumb simply because MOST people do it like 5-10 times a week and then they give up, while arena/rbg fellas spam their brackets all the time.

what is your competence in pvp btw, any arena titles or smth?

Blizz already use the same approach as valve, riot or their own OW team, there's one "minor" difference though.

In Dota/LoL/OW/etc official competitive formats are the same as the most popular casual formats: same maps, same comp sizes, etc. So all balance changes and reworks in comp play are reflected in casual modes as well. How these changes affect other less popular casual formats doesn't really matter to devs or even players themselves.

In WoW, however, the official competitive format is 3v3 arenas, whereas the preferred casual format is battlegrounds, and random arenas are just dead. So whenever Blizz change stuff for the sake of 3v3 arena balance, casuals or even people who play rated BGs don't really experience these changes the same way as arena participants because BG requirements are different, different classes and specs are picked and so on.

Basically, in WoW the official competitive format is its least popular PvP format.

[Uoyredrum]

General: Get rid of templates, bring back wrath style gearing, prevent tanks from queuing for arena.

Arena: Bring back 5s, allow gladiator for all brackets (who really gives a shit anymore who has glad?), add solo queue bracket
RBGs: Start actually banning cheaters, make multiple brackets, make it easier to get groups together, add solo queue bracket
World PvP: Give better rewards for world pvp kills, add zone-wide world quests for pvp, bounties, multiple zone objectives on timers

[Dmitro]

no, it won't.

They are balancing around the number, not the players. They would be balancing around 10v10 so that Rated BGs can be the competitive focus, while simultaneously balancing the most popular and populated

1) nope, false, random bgs are not the most popular form of pvp, let me put it this way, you only put time into stuff that people play repeatedly, not randomly and from time to time, that why in pve classes are balanced around MYTHIC raiding (not normal and lfr) and to some extend - mythic +, theres no point to pay attention to something that people dont take seriously and will never take seriously due to the nature of that thing (nobody does normal bgs not in casual way), if you put the most effort into normal bgs it will be the same amount of people (still) playing the same amount of games weekly (still) just because theres no rating reward in it and items from it are obviously (and rightfully so) trash, theres literally no point of making 10v10 a balanced thing since its not changing dramatically how often your pvp audience plays it.

so yep, we have rbgs that most of people dont play (its hard to get other 9 good people into team and do them, takes more time to gather people up and if somebody leaves you once again have to wait for a replacement, just too much time spent on nothing) I've played rbgs the entire legion, got to 2500 on my main dh and casually to 1900 on my dh tank and I do know what I am talking about).

Once again, nobody cares about normal bgs cause : no rating, no rewards, not team play, its just a casual way to spend time while bored, nothing more, yes MORE people play it generally, but very very very very few people play it more than lets say 10 times a week, unlike arenas and rbgs, which are main focuses in the game for a noticeable population.

and the only thing we have left is ARENAS, its easier to get into them for 1 simple reason

1) you dont have to have many people to play them, if you wanna spend some time casually - you play 2v2 with your buddies or some random people from lfg, if you wanna take it seriously - you just find 2 other people (UNLIKE 9 in rbgs again) and q it up.


"Would be more interesting to watch too, IMO, than 6 people humping pillars for 15 minutes."

you revealed that you understand very little in pvp, for anybody above 2200 arenas are more fun and complex and deep than very simplistic and random and bizzare rbgs.

thats why more people watch arena streams (up to 2000) than any rbg streams (100-200 at most) here goes your "most popular bracket" bullshit, its really fewer people playing RBGS in both NA and EU, thats why the noobiest people on earth get 2200 there and q takes up to 20 minutes, and most times if you queue a 2200 mmr team you have to wait for 20 minutes then face a 1500 lfr team because... anything above 1600 is dead most of the time on ladder, because its just 500-600 people playing rbgs in NA for example ( you can literally go check it out, the arena and rbg statistics) so you dont spew this stupid "rbgs are more popular" degeneracy.


Its so obvious for me that you trying to talk smart about things that you arent even into from a totally casual standpoint without even knowing basic stuff.

go to pve section and tell them that blizzard should balance the game around dps output (they vary massively) of classes in normal-heroic modes instead of mythic raids , see their reaction.

- - - Updated - - -

Basically, in WoW the official competitive format is its least popular PvP format.

just false, fewer people even play rbgs and its always been this way, check any statistics or just NA pvp ladder.
(I am so tired of people that dont even rbg spewing this "its more popular" bs)

- - - Updated - - -

General: Get rid of templates, bring back wrath style gearing, prevent tanks from queuing for arena.

Arena: Bring back 5s, allow gladiator for all brackets (who really gives a shit anymore who has glad?), add solo queue bracket
RBGs: Start actually banning cheaters, make multiple brackets, make it easier to get groups together, add solo queue bracket
World PvP: Give better rewards for world pvp kills, add zone-wide world quests for pvp, bounties, multiple zone objectives on timers

agree with all from general except for tank, nope, its just a bad attitude, you have to fix specs instead of adding more and more artificial blocks (like dampening and other bullshit, people were to lazy to fix mana issues - added dampening, its toxic and damaging to the game process)

5s are not needed imho, I would prefer a 6v6 rbgs instead on smaller maps, solo q is cancer and not needed (wow pvp is very very team oriented to have lfr system, its not a moba, remember)

[ls-]

just false, fewer people even play rbgs and its always been this way, check any statistics or just NA pvp ladder.
(I am so tired of people that dont even rbg spewing this "its more popular" bs)

If you checked ladders yourself, you'd see that almost the same number of people plays rated arenas and RBGs. However, way more people play random BGs than random arenas.

Random + rated BGs > random + rated arenas.

I went full retard

[Dmitro]

If you checked ladders yourself, you'd see that the same number of people plays rated arenas and RBGs. However, way more people play random BGs than random arenas.

Random + rated BGs > random + rated arenas.

Ok, now I know that you got no clue how pvp ladders in wow work, they only point out the 5000 from overall stat, so if its 5000 from 40000 arenas and 5000 from 6000 rbgs they still will be "the same"

you compare it by inflation, so basically the higher the last page is in rating the more people play the bracket.

FOR NORTH AMERICA IT IS

2100 IN 3V3 ON 4990 pos
1813 in rbgs ON 4990 pos.

so sad you argue about stuff you got zero clue of.

[ls-]

Ok, now I know that you got no clue how pvp ladders in wow work, they only point out the 5000 from overall stat, so if its 5000 from 40000 arenas and 5000 from 6000 rbgs they still will be "the same"

you compare it by inflation, so basically the higher the last page is in rating the more people play the bracket.

FOR NORTH AMERICA IT IS

2100 IN 3V3 ON 4990 pos
1813 in rbgs ON 4990 pos.

so sad you argue about stuff you got zero clue of.

I know how they work, but I went full-retard, and that I can agree with >_>

So I'll correct my own mistake, according to S6 EU cutoffs at the time of writing:

RBG: 118 / (0.5 / 100) + 91 / (0.5 / 100) = 41800
3v3: 126 / (0.1 / 100) + 76 / (0.1 / 100) = 202000

I really shouldn't argue w/ people in the morning before I drink my tea >_> Still, I think that ideally RBGs and arenas should be balanced independently

[Volitar]

Stop unpeelable mongoloid PVE class design.

[Deleted]

PvP without tanks and healers would be the best improvement imo, even though I know it will anger some people.

[Dmitro]

I know how they work, but I went full-retard, and that I can agree with >_>

So I'll correct my own mistake, according to S6 EU cutoffs at the time of writing:

RBG: 118 / (0.5 / 100) + 91 / (0.5 / 100) = 41800
3v3: 126 / (0.1 / 100) + 76 / (0.1 / 100) = 202000

I really shouldn't argue w/ people in the morning before I drink my tea >_> Still, I think that ideally RBGs and arenas should be balanced independently

Oh, thats a pity.

arenas and rbgs should not and will not be balanced independently man, their pvp team is so tiny that even fixing obvious flaws in arenas, literally took them 6 MONTHS ( you got it right, half a year) to fix paladins 24/7 poison dispels that made impossible for assa rogues to compete against them lol

btw @Schattenlied "most popular bracket" my ass

[ls-]

arenas and rbgs should not and will not be balanced independently man, their pvp team is so tiny that even fixing obvious flaws in arenas, literally took them 6 MONTHS ( you got it right, half a year) to fix paladins 24/7 poison dispels that made impossible for assa rogues to compete against them lol

Well, I said "ideally"...

[Dmitro]

Well, I said "ideally"...

Ideally we should live forever and never die from diseases, but lets be a bit more realistic)

if they offer pvp devs a bit more resources it shall be spent 90% for arenas imo instead of splitting these tiny opportunities into 2/3 directions

[Wildmoon]

because it was going downhill since cata, so this phrase is... truth.
cata was worse and more casual that wotlk, mop was more bizzare and arcade than cata, wod was more pruned than mop and legions is just a disgrace.

Except I saw it before Cata as well. People have such differing visions of what PvP should ideally be that it's really hard to make PvP good.

[Melius]

for a casual pvp-er it would be nice to give us the option to not play against russians or russian premades if we dont want too. that would be great.