Does Horde have -any- relative power to the Alliance?

[Tripzzz]

gameplay? im not saying that gray mobs in tirisfal glades explode when i go near them but that lorewise i, as a novice undead fresh of freemind/ressurrection, was send against scarlet crusader, even light user, perfectly fine. if light would work as you suggesting why forsakens would send their recruits agains such world ending units? this is lore, not gameplay. as is lore that paladins werent the victory card against death knight, they barely stalled the war with the help of both kirin tor mages and high elf rangers.
and even gameplay wise, to oneshot a deathknight a paladin had to use all his mana, so far to be a win card...

It is gameplay. When the Forsaken were labeled as Undead instead of humanoid, they were getting destroyed by paladins. I think it was in beta but maybe it also went live for a little. It's the same reason warriors can put bleeds on ghosts. The light is very harmful to the undead lorewise.

[Whitedragon]

gameplay? im not saying that gray mobs in tirisfal glades explode when i go near them but that lorewise i, as a novice undead fresh of freemind/ressurrection, was send against scarlet crusader, even light user, perfectly fine. if light would work as you suggesting why forsakens would send their recruits agains such world ending units? this is lore, not gameplay. as is lore that paladins werent the victory card against death knight, they barely stalled the war with the help of both kirin tor mages and high elf rangers.
and even gameplay wise, to oneshot a deathknight a paladin had to use all his mana, so far to be a win card...

In the lore the scarlet crusade was killing a threatening amount of forsaken that's why the champions of the horde had to be brought in to deal with them. As it turns out your toon is a cut above the rest (It's the same reason Sylvanas goes from lousing badly in silverpine to gaining a grate victory), most forsaken weren't near as lucky as you.

As for point two, It wasn't the the death knights who turned the tables in the hordes favor though that was the dragons. Hell the whole of the horde war machine was very diverse at that point, so saying it was just the death knights that stopped the paladins, mages, and rangers is just flat wrong.

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It is gameplay. When the Forsaken were labeled as Undead instead of humanoid, they were getting destroyed by paladins. I think it was in beta but maybe it also went live for a little. It's the same reason warriors can put bleeds on ghosts. The light is very harmful to the undead lorewise.

Also this.

[MikeBogina]

In the lore the scarlet crusade was killing a threatening amount of forsaken that's why the champions of the horde had to be brought in to deal with them. As it turns out your toon is a cut above the rest (It's the same reason Sylvanas goes from lousing badly in silverpine to gaining a grate victory), most forsaken weren't near as lucky as you.

The Scarlet Crusade is shown in the manga, being easily defeated by the Forsaken. Losing*? badly in Silverpine, most secondary zones have all factions dealing with troubles that only the heroes are able to overcome, haven't done much of the Alliance, but it seems like it's the same for both the Humans in Redridge and Westfall and the Night Elves aswell. Your character is also not the only hero and neither is the quests that you yourself do canon that you are the only one doing it. Most of what we do is actually done by the armies of the factions.

As for point two, It wasn't the the death knights who turned the tables in the hordes favor though that was the dragons. Hell the whole of the horde war machine was very diverse at that point, so saying it was just the death knights that stopped the paladins, mages, and rangers is just flat wrong.

The Death Knight's countered the Paladins, not just in 1v1 combat but also support to both armies. The Paladins boosted their armies and the Death Knights boosted their side aswell, but mostly did a shit ton of harm to the other army.
The Dragons were introduced later and only showed up to counter the griffon riders of the Alliance, though they did do amazing against the Proudmoore fleet, they only served to counter griffon riders for the most part.

It seems for every diverse unit the Alliance threw at the Horde, the Horde found a way to counter it, with Trolls countering Elves, Ogres countering mages(after all the Warlocks died and became Death knights) but turning the tables was never a thing. The Horde was winning over and over and everytime a new problem emerged, the horde developed something to counter it.

[Tripzzz]

The souls of the undead (Forsaken, death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence.[23]

When undead channel the Light, they do not disintegrate or explode from channeling the Light, though they may wish they would.[24] Instead, it feels to them as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower. Forsaken and death knight tanks suffer nobly when they have priest or paladin healers in the group, and Sir Zeliek really hates himself.[9]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Light


The light has the clear advantage over the undead. The only reason the Scarlet Crusade failed was because it's leadership was hijacked by a dreadlord who didn't want to actually destroy all undead.

[Whitedragon]

The Scarlet Crusade is shown in the manga, being easily defeated by the Forsaken. Losing*? badly in Silverpine, most secondary zones have all factions dealing with troubles that only the heroes are able to overcome, haven't done much of the Alliance, but it seems like it's the same for both the Humans in Redridge and Westfall and the Night Elves aswell. Your character is also not the only hero and neither is the quests that you yourself do canon that you are the only one doing it. Most of what we do is actually done by the armies of the factions.

Westfall (sentinel hill) ends up burning, red ridge at the end of the zone your team of elite fighters ends up dieing, Strangle thorn you end up reviving a powerful troll who kicks your but, Ashenvale you end up in a stale mate with a good chunk of night elf lands burning, Theramore gets bombed, Southern barrens you louse a number of fortifications, and in stone talon you get pushed mostly out. Alliance never was the chain of seemingly easy wins that horde quest lines tend to be.

The Death Knight's countered the Paladins, not just in 1v1 combat but also support to both armies. The Paladins boosted their armies and the Death Knights boosted their side aswell, but mostly did a shit ton of harm to the other army.
The Dragons were introduced later and only showed up to counter the griffon riders of the Alliance, though they did do amazing against the Proudmoore fleet, they only served to counter griffon riders for the most part.

It seems for every diverse unit the Alliance threw at the Horde, the Horde found a way to counter it, with Trolls countering Elves, Ogres countering mages(after all the Warlocks died and became Death knights) but turning the tables was never a thing. The Horde was winning over and over and everytime a new problem emerged, the horde developed something to counter it.

The horde wasn't winning though, they spent a large portion of the invasion of Lordaron fleeing form the bulk of the alliance forces. Their navy was being routed until they had the dragons fly in, the bulk of trolls (After the orcs broke the promise they had made them) where left behind in Quel'thalas for dead, and a number of the orcish clans where being splinterd off and hunted down.

The hordes biggest win came when the dragons arrived and burned a good chunk of the eleven forests but they got to the rune stone protected woods and found they could not penetrate fast enough to be able to avoid a pincer attack from the alliance forces at there back and the eleven defenders they pushed towards. Seeing an inevitable loss Doomhamer abandoned that campaigning and made a brake for the Aterac mountains in hopes that they could catch Lordaeron by suprise.

And I know what your going to say next "But they would have taken Lordaeron if it wasn't for the betrayal of Guldan", and the same can be said if Aiden Perenolde hadn't let the orcs through Alterac. If he had done his job the Horde would have been caught in the mountains where a small force could hold an army (Later confirmed when Thoras Trollbane felt something was wrong, led a detachment from Stromgard and found the orcs where moving through unhindered, and did just that.)

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

The Draenei may have the most powerful military on Azeroth, but they are reserved and deliberate in their use of power. And patient. Oh so very patient. Why the last time the Draenei mobilized to destroy an evil empire, it was only after 25,000 years of deliberation.

[mickybrighteyes]

The Draenei may have the most powerful military on Azeroth, but they are reserved and deliberate in their use of power. And patient. Oh so very patient. Why the last time the Draenei mobilized to destroy an evil empire, it was only after 25,000 years of deliberation.

eh.. debateble. they have some of the smallest numbers and seem to lack teh means to maintain their equipment properly. and 25,000 years? I wasn't aware of events taking place outside the scope of war of the ancients (15k prior to modern era?) and beyond the fall of argus (not sure of when).

One thing is for certain. Not many civilizations have fallen harder than than the Eredar

[sam86]

the answer is already in alliance rpg and horde rpg books, that were released earlier in wow era
alliance have superior strategy yes, but it all fails to stop a single tuaren on berseker rage, they can literally charge and no injury stop them, they are the wow 'terminators'
if u want short answer alliance main power were 2 points : 1) technology, u can't do much against steam engines, and while gnome inventions tend to backfire, when they work they are the reason to make alliance able to siege or defend against siege better, 2) numbers: stormwind alone has more than entire horde population combined, stormwind as the biggest active city hub in southern eastern kingdoms has some official comical numbers: it has more dwarfs than IF, more nelfs than Darnassus, more high elves than anywhere else (again recommend u read that urself)

this isn't the age of nukes, it is still based on middle ages, and in middle ages it was generally bigger army wins, and when one nation alone has bigger army than rest of entire enemy faction combined, a fight against horde will be brutal, it is 'luckily' that alliance front line can't hold at all against horde front line, making a full out war a very casualty heavy fight for both side, alliance might win, but no one will live to see it anyway because as soon old gods sense no resistance to stop them, they will send their minions to wipe out whatever left

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

eh.. debateble. they have some of the smallest numbers and seem to lack teh means to maintain their equipment properly. and 25,000 years? I wasn't aware of events taking place outside the scope of war of the ancients (15k prior to modern era?) and beyond the fall of argus (not sure of when).

One thing is for certain. Not many civilizations have fallen harder than than the Eredar

1. 25,000 years ago: Sargeras corrupted most of the eredar on Argus, convincing them to join his Burning Legion. With the help of the naaru, Velen escaped on the Genedar with other eredar that reject Sargeras' offer. The naaru named them the draenei, or "Exiled Ones".
2. Today: Draenei Vindicaar and Lightforged Warframes seem to be working just fine. These alone make the Draenei the most capable military force on Azeroth.

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I suspect the reason Draenei have struggled to maintain other technology is because all their resources were going into the Vindicaar and preparations for their eventual return. Velen tells us as much when he welcomes us aboard in 7.3.

[mickybrighteyes]

1. 25,000 years ago: Sargeras corrupted most of the eredar on Argus, convincing them to join his Burning Legion. With the help of the naaru, Velen escaped on the Genedar with other eredar that reject Sargeras' offer. The naaru named them the draenei, or "Exiled Ones".
2. Today: Draenei Vindicaar and Lightforged Warframes seem to be working just fine. These alone make the Draenei the most capable military force on Azeroth.

given the amount of information on the warframes... I can't really agree. There seems to be more info on the animus golems (that blood elves seem to have been making post ToT) than the warframes.

I suspect the reason Draenei have struggled to maintain other technology is because all their resources were going into the Vindicaar and preparations for their eventual return. Velen tells us as much when he welcomes us aboard in 7.3.

Lets also keep in mind it's said that it's been 10 years of production... the horde's naval fleet was shat out in about half the time and THAT at least has some plausible maintenance behind it if shit hits the fan. this uber magitech stuff draenei got seems flashy but unsustainable and labeling it as an astronomical drain on resources over such a length of time doesn't really make it look good.

[faithbane]

If you think about it, population-wise the Horde should be much less powerful than it is in game, there's not a single horde race that was not on the brink of total annihilation at some point over the last decade or two. But then again, faction balance...

I don't know why alliance fanboys keep throwing rocks from their glass houses.. I realize this might be a little hard to handle but take a deep breath and read the following and then point where facts hurt your head cannon about "population balance":

Humans - There were 7 human "kingdoms" and out of those 2 of them Dalaran and Kul tiras were city states - One of them neutral, other one had horde roll right through their city and kill their king without a sweat so yea.. Out of the remaining 5:

Lordaeron - Destroyed by the scourge, almost all survivors hunted down and killed by then King Arthas. Currently serving Sylvanas as the forsaken.

Alterac - Betrayed the human alliance, currently fighting against the alliance as the syndicate

Stormgarde - Severely damaged/destroyed, most of the population dead, scattered or raised as undead

Gilneas - will talk about it during the worgen section

Stormwind - Taken the full demon blood crazed force of orcs to the face, lost a lot of its power and population and had its capital sacked and burned by orcs. Survivors fled and returned after the 3rd war to rebuild the city with the help of then still surviving Lordaeron and Dalaran. So all the in game humans come from almost totally annihilated kingdom of stormwind. wink wink and since then those humans had to fight in every conflict during WoW history and considering the human lifespan/reproduction, there should be even less of them.

Dwarfs - The real strength of the alliance comes from the dwarfs since they have a strong mountain stronghold and were spared most of the disasters that have affected the rest of the playable races. BUT - the playable/alliance dwarves are only descending from 1 clan of dwarves and different dwarf clans had been hostile towards each other and warred for centuries, there population is probably not booming. + Dwarves rarely like to leave the safety of their mountains and when the fanboys who want to leave fantasy behind and put some realism and numbers into the equation yet call a race that can be punted away by most horde races as powerful is laughable.

Gnomes - The "tech support" race of the alliance that lost a majority of its population during the fall of gnomeregan with the fight against the troggs + the leper gnomes, 80% to 90% of the population fallen based lore sources. So yea fits the total annahilation theme doesn't it..

Night Elves - Ancient and powerful race, although suffered many tragedies like multiple burning invasions and sundering. They were reclusive forest race and their numbers were never listed as "numerous" fitting their nature theme. Too bad the blizz focus and writing on NEs were horrendous but thats another subject. On the numbers game and considering they couldn't even push back orcs in Ashenvale, they don't get an edge.

Worgens - They are the survivors of 1 fringe human kingdom that was being hunted by wild werewolves/worgens for years behind their sealed borders and then they took many casualties against the forsaken.. They would have been completely exterminated with the deus ex NE during the intro quests.. Sorry that it doesn't match your head cannon but sadly there aren't many of them.

Draenei - Survivors of demon buffed orcs that were the survivors of the O.G burning legion.. Literally came to the brink of total annihilation multiple times in history, losing more and more people throughout their journey in the universe. Their population span is as much as 1 giant ship can handle that crashed on azeroth. -.-

Lightforged + Void elves - This might be too repetitive for people who just played the Argus campaign but just fror the blind, deaf and illiterate ally fanboys:
Lightforged cows are literally the survivors of ONE ship that was attacking argus on a final desperate attempt and got immediately shot down and destroyed. They clearly stated they were the last remnants of the army of the light during the quest chain but reading is hard.. On top of that they fought with us throughout argus and lost even more people so there is probably like what 100 of them left?
Void elves are a couple Blood elves that meddled in void magic and got kicked out of the city. They are 1% of the %1 their numbers are in the dozens..

[Nuniqt]

Even at the lowest point of his power, Arthas, not yet all that empowered by souls or the lich king, bested all of histories greatest paladins, except Turalyon who wasnt there and Tirion. I think thats the closest we have to an equal battle: Death Knight Arthas vs Uther.

Ironically in Warcraft. It seems the best counter to a type of magic, is that same magic. See: Illidari and Death Knights, who were the strongest fighters against the Demons and Undead respectively.

Thats a great point. My big questions is how would arthas do without frostmourne? At the end of the day Uther (to my knowledge) had a big as hammer. Arthas still had an artifact quality weapon and was poised to become one of the biggest bads in the game... I have a feeling it would be closer but still A>U.

Also I like your point about fire with fire.

[mickybrighteyes]

Worgens - They are the survivors of 1 fringe human kingdom that was being hunted by wild werewolves/worgens for years behind their sealed borders and then they took many casualties against the forsaken.. They would have been completely exterminated with the deus ex NE during the intro quests.. Sorry that it doesn't match your head cannon but sadly there aren't many of them.

yet they do seem to be part of every major action the alliance is pushing now. It seems the night elf rescue operation went off without a hitch though I really don't get WHY elves bothered showing up to begin with instead of some stormwind vessels

[Zulkhan]

The Draenei may have the most powerful military on Azeroth

You mean the people able to get inside Velen's bubble altogether? Only High Elves and maybe Void Elves have possibly lower numbers than that.

[mickybrighteyes]

You mean the people able to get inside Velen's bubble altogether? Only High Elves and maybe Void Elves have possibly lower numbers than that.

The brewmaster sees how the lightforged warframes and the vindicaar work on Argus and thinks they're unbeatable. that's about it.

sure the lightforged warframes do get shown off as being nigh indestructible at times seemingly taking out legion fortifiactions/encampments/attack forces solo... but also getting stomped out en masse by other legion forces.

[Nuniqt]

If people listened to everything I said when I was drunk the world would be a very different place.

[MikeBogina]

Westfall (sentinel hill) ends up burning, red ridge at the end of the zone your team of elite fighters ends up dieing, Strangle thorn you end up reviving a powerful troll who kicks your but, Ashenvale you end up in a stale mate with a good chunk of night elf lands burning, Theramore gets bombed, Southern barrens you louse a number of fortifications, and in stone talon you get pushed mostly out. Alliance never was the chain of seemingly easy wins that horde quest lines tend to be.

I was referring to the 10-20 zones that most of the races have, where you seem to be this "hero" that solves problems your faction can't. Westfall we know that the Defias are going to mess the alliance up and you prevent this, Redridge has the Blackrock Orcs being a huge threat and you stop them. On a note of elite fighters, that happens in every zone. Ashenvale and Silverpine both gave me moments where an NPC I liked a lot died.

Barrens fortifications is an odd thing to bring up. Barrens originally was all Horde, being there in the first place is technically a win and the burning and massacre of the Tauren Village was too. Theramore is justified in lore and gameplay. Lore they were supposed to be a neutral hub that even worked with the Horde up until WoW and then turned on them and helped the Alliance invade into the Barrens, for it, they lost their city. Gameplay, the Alliance basically had an extra city.

The horde wasn't winning though, they spent a large portion of the invasion of Lordaron fleeing form the bulk of the alliance forces. Their navy was being routed until they had the dragons fly in, the bulk of trolls (After the orcs broke the promise they had made them) where left behind in Quel'thalas for dead, and a number of the orcish clans where being splinterd off and hunted down.

The hordes biggest win came when the dragons arrived and burned a good chunk of the eleven forests but they got to the rune stone protected woods and found they could not penetrate fast enough to be able to avoid a pincer attack from the alliance forces at there back and the eleven defenders they pushed towards. Seeing an inevitable loss Doomhamer abandoned that campaigning and made a brake for the Aterac mountains in hopes that they could catch Lordaeron by suprise.

And I know what your going to say next "But they would have taken Lordaeron if it wasn't for the betrayal of Guldan", and the same can be said if Aiden Perenolde hadn't let the orcs through Alterac. If he had done his job the Horde would have been caught in the mountains where a small force could hold an army (Later confirmed when Thoras Trollbane felt something was wrong, led a detachment from Stromgard and found the orcs where moving through unhindered, and did just that.)

The Horde had easily conquered the southern portion of the continent, had destroyed Kul'tiras' fleet and despite the crazy odds against them in Hillsbrad, still managed to invade it. From there on, there was a large string of mistakes made by Orgrim, that if he just took a moment to stop and take it slow, the Horde would have won, but where ever the Horde went, they had victories which then followed by the heroes victories.

And yeah, if Gul'dan didn't do that, the Horde would have won... but not because of Gul'dan, but because Orgrim sent the largest clan after him. The Horde would have won, if Orgrim didn't takeover xD

[Whitedragon]

The Horde had easily conquered the southern portion of the continent, had destroyed Kul'tiras' fleet and despite the crazy odds against them in Hillsbrad, still managed to invade it. From there on, there was a large string of mistakes made by Orgrim, that if he just took a moment to stop and take it slow, the Horde would have won, but where ever the Horde went, they had victories which then followed by the heroes victories.

And yeah, if Gul'dan didn't do that, the Horde would have won... but not because of Gul'dan, but because Orgrim sent the largest clan after him. The Horde would have won, if Orgrim didn't takeover xD

Easly conquerd? the fall of stormwind was broght apon whith the loss of their king due to assassination from a trusted friend, disheartening the defending forces. The Orcs themselves where commenting on how they never expected the shear resistance that the humans where puting up when their backs wheir up agenst the wall.

As for the destruction of the Kul'tiras fleet, that only came with the arival of the dragons, befor that most of the horde fleet had been sunk. What ever was left was sent to bring guldan to justice, thats why doomhamer had to flee to BRM on foot.

As for taking it slow, he didn't have time to take it slow, in the books it was made very clear that if the bulk of the alliance force caught up to him the horde forces would be devastated, thats why they where doing everything in their power to get away from it.

And as to your last point like I side ya the orcs would have broken lordaeron (not that that would have ended the war considering lordaeron was just one human nation, and the alliance's main force was still advancing through Alterac in pursuit.) if it wasn't for guldan. Likewise if Aiden Perenolde hadn't sported the horde, and instead held them in the mountain passes, the horde would have been slaughtered in Alterac. Both sides had a major betrayal which had large impacts on the war.

[Toppy]

Easly conquerd? the fall of stormwind was broght apon whith the loss of their king due to assassination from a trusted friend, disheartening the defending forces. The Orcs themselves where commenting on how they never expected the shear resistance that the humans where puting up when their backs wheir up agenst the wall.

As for the destruction of the Kul'tiras fleet, that only came with the arival of the dragons, befor that most of the horde fleet had been sunk. What ever was left was sent to bring guldan to justice, thats why doomhamer had to flee to BRM on foot.

As for taking it slow, he didn't have time to take it slow, in the books it was made very clear that if the bulk of the alliance force caught up to him the horde forces would be devastated, thats why they where doing everything in their power to get away from it.

And as to your last point like I side ya the orcs would have broken lordaeron (not that that would have ended the war considering lordaeron was just one human nation, and the alliance's main force was still advancing through Alterac in pursuit.) if it wasn't for guldan. Likewise if Aiden Perenolde hadn't sported the horde, and instead held them in the mountain passes, the horde would have been slaughtered in Alterac. Both sides had a major betrayal which had large impacts on the war.

Orcs steam rolled through human, dwarven, and high elven lands pretty quickly. Even though yes, the king had been assassinated, Stormwind still fell super quick. Dwarvens were so out matched they had to barricade their mountain fortress. Perenolde changed sides because he KNEW he had no chance of holding them back. The alliance knew that, they were relying on Alterac to slow the Horde down, not stop them. Even when the alliance got their shit together they didn't really steam roll till Gul'Dan left. Hell the Horde was significantly increased in power after stormwind with death knights, dragons and Trolls.

They were pushed back in the Hinterlands, but that was with the dragons absent and most of the army gone. The ONLY reason they were pushed out of quel thelas was because the elves put a giant bubble over their city after losing everything except said city. They wrecked the Alliance forces there. And it was there that Gul'dan turned on the Horde. The only reason the Horde failed to defeat the elves, dwarves, and humans all, was because Gul'Dan took all their magic and said "Screw you guys". The Horde had greater numbers, greater firepower, formidable siege weaponry and so on.

[Zeos]

Between the Horde and Alliance are a series of independent clans and races that tend to prefer the Horde over the Alliance.

Ex: It was hard to even go North in Redridge for sometime because a coalition of gnolls, ettins, and blackrock orcs blocked the way.

While on paper the Alliance is bigger than the Horde, its not easy for the Alliance to reach the Horde for a full scale invasion without first removing sympathetic clans from the path.