About the "Desolate Council"

[Deleted]

yeah, or maybe being Forsaken is just awesome and all the haters realize the mistake they were making

No it really just is in the nature of being undead. You're basically taken over by an evil clone who thinks they're you.

Or its lazy writing. Strangely I never see Horde Fanboys cry about bad writing as long as it pushes their faction.

[MikeBogina]

Or its lazy writing. Strangely I never see Horde Fanboys cry about bad writing as long as it pushes their faction.

You mean like how the Forsaken should probably steamroll most of the Alliance, like the Scourge did? Or how Sylvanas the Banshee Queen keeps forgetting she's a banshee?

Lazy writing is everywhere, but bias writing tends to favor the Alliance more. Something you seem to never have a problem with.

[Alidfe]

Lazy writing is everywhere, but bias writing tends to favor the Alliance more. Something you seem to never have a problem with.

It's really interesting how people on both sides seem utterly convinced that the writing is biased against their preferred faction.

[Maljinwo]

Or its lazy writing. Strangely I never see Horde Fanboys cry about bad writing as long as it pushes their faction.

I stopped asking about that when it was clear the only answer was "undeath frenzy"

[KrakHed]

Seems like the Desolate Council are the good and moral part of the Forsaken. I wish them to succeed and take control of the Forsaken at the end of BfA. The Forsaken should only turn people into Undeads who before their death by their free will consent to be turned undead.

Not sure that's true. Nathanos merely says that many on the Council have issues with that Sylvanas is doing. Many. But it's a Council, which implies there are likely quite a few viewpoints represented. Some might be pro-necromancy. Some might be against it. They might argue about it constantly and never shut up.

[Alidfe]

If by only sometimes you mean 100% of the time the forsaken have free will.

I am genuinely curious on why some people refuse to believe that. Why would you want it to be any other way?

Because Blizzard goes back and forth here a lot. We have explicit Word of God that Forsaken all are completely free-willed. Then we have in game scenes where alliance soldiers are brought back and immediately begin praising Sylvanas. We have an explanation for that which is also kind of inconsistent in what it means or how it's applied.

Then we also have Word of God that newly raised Forsaken are given the choice of swearing allegiance to Sylvanas or being put back in the ground, which means while they're free willed in a literal sense, it's a little dubious to call freedom their 'shtick'. Except sometimes that's not true either.

Basically, sometimes the Forsaken are painted with shades of the Scourge. Sometimes they celebrate their individuality and freedom after breaking free of the Lich King's hold as the most important thing and sometimes they're entirely defined by Sylvanas, whose rule in and of itself varies in portrayal from benevolent but pragmatic cult of personality to iron fisted dictatorship.

It makes talking about the Forsaken kinda hard because everyone has an example they can pull out from somewhere in the game that matches their personal headcanon.

Doesn't help that development cycles are so slow which makes trying to figure out how it actually pieces together sort of a pain.

[Zuben]

Sylvanas's long-term absence left a power vacuum in Undercity, so it's only natural the people there would conjure a system in its place to give the city some structure. The longer it's in place the more it gains support from the general population. When a notable portion the populace prefers it over Sylvanas's reign she can't just disband it and expect no repercussions. The Forsaken have been happy to have Sylvanas as a queen, not as a tyrant.

This could be good development for the Forsaken, shifting their focus from Sylvanas's cult of personality to an actual nation of people. I don't appreciate the council's disinterest in searching for longevity, but it could be a matter of growing pains. Once the Forsaken have set down roots to a new land (assuming they won't return to Lordaeron) their development can go in any direction.

[steelballfc]

there is a book coming wait for it

[Magnagarde]

Like... Arthas?

The Forsaken without Sylvanas would have either been brought back into the Scourge or the Dreadlord's forces. In Frozen Throne she proved to be a great tactical leader and carved out a piece of the kingdoms for these people. I used to think that after we defeated Arthas, some of the human undead would want to bring him back(the people loved him and I can see many undead being able to relate to what happened to him) and after a conflict with Sylvanas, he'd take over but that will never happen.

Possibly lesser nobles and people from various military branches of the former kingdom.

[MikeBogina]

Possibly lesser nobles and people from various military branches of the former kingdom.

They they have to start making those characters. Forsaken really do lack characters and the obvious solution would be to go raise some and add them to the ranks.

[Deleted]

You mean like how the Forsaken should probably steamroll most of the Alliance, like the Scourge did? Or how Sylvanas the Banshee Queen keeps forgetting she's a banshee?

Lazy writing is everywhere, but bias writing tends to favor the Alliance more. Something you seem to never have a problem with.

Uhm, why? They have no army as strong as that of the Alliance, no airships, no strong magical units. They have literally just the plague.

[MikeBogina]

Uhm, why? They have no army as strong as that of the Alliance

Undead army, abominations.

no airships

Horde has had airships before the Alliance. But easy counter to that, raise wyverns.

no strong magical units

Necromancers, banshees, undead mages. People who had no power in life can develop magical powers in death(Godfrey used necromancy after becoming forsaken)

They have literally just the plague.

They literally are a smaller Scourge with the benefits of individuals becoming more powerful than ghouls. They were neutered in WoW, but playing Frozen Throne, they have everything the Scourge does.

A good example of this neutering? Sylvanas is the Banshee Queen, yet she for some reason isn't allowed to Banshee because... you know she'd be too op.
Banshee's can mute magic users, possess powerful people including even Val'kyr and have necromantic powers.

[Zulkhan]

They literally are a smaller Scourge with the benefits of individuals becoming more powerful than ghouls. They were neutered in WoW, but playing Frozen Throne, they have everything the Scourge does.

That was mere gameplay. They were never meant to have literal WC3 necromancers, plague of undeath or the ability to endlessly resurrect fallen enemies to use them as cannon fodder and these are the major aspects that made the Scourge the unstoppable juggernaut it was.

The only real advantage the Forsaken have compared to the Scourge is free will: they can individually learn skills and behave as a working society.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That was mere gameplay. They were never meant to have literal WC3 necromancers, plague of undeath or the ability to endlessly resurrect fallen enemies to use them as cannon fodder and these are the major aspects that made the Scourge the unstoppable juggernaut it was.

The only real advantage the Forsaken have compared to the Scourge is free will: they can individually learn skills and behave as a working society.

Well they have two lichs (one in training) combined with the knowledge of Val'kyr, could be something fun to build up.)

[Zulkhan]

Well they have two lichs (one in training) combined with the knowledge of Val'kyr, could be something fun to build up.)

inb4 Kel'Thuzad raises Garithos and together with a Nathanos who got over his elven fetish form a new ruling council for the Forsaken. All the elven freaks will be degraded to lesser tasks and entertainment of all kinds.

[Friendlyimmolation]

inb4 Kel'Thuzad raises Garithos and together with a Nathanos who got over his elven fetish form a new ruling council for the Forsaken. All the elven freaks will be degraded to lesser tasks and entertainment of all kinds.

MEGAinhuman

[Deleted]

Sylvanas has a desolate vagina and a barren womb. Just sayin'.

[Deleted]

Undead army, abominations.

That can be ripped apart by Worgen with their bare claws.

Horde has had airships before the Alliance. But easy counter to that, raise wyverns.

Yeah, but the Forsaken themselves have none.

Necromancers, banshees, undead mages. People who had no power in life can develop magical powers in death(Godfrey used necromancy after becoming forsaken)

We don't know if Godfrey had magical powers in Life, so its speculation on your side. Otherwise there are only individual banshees shown in the game and not a big force of them and we have outside of a hand full val'kyr only one necromancer in the Forsaken. They have Mages but Humans have them as well and if we look at ingame representation, humans seem to be inheritly better as they tend to provide a significant portion of magical force in most conflicts. In Legion for example it was the human Kirin Tor who had to provide the magical force and the magical order to fight the Legion as neither Blood Elves nor Forsaken had any organisations to fullfill this role.

They literally are a smaller Scourge with the benefits of individuals becoming more powerful than ghouls. They were neutered in WoW, but playing Frozen Throne, they have everything the Scourge does.

Nope, they have not. Outside of Monstrosities, they lack any of the units that make the Scourge such a strong force. They don't have many necromancers, they don't have abominations, they don't have countless numbers of ghouls, Lichs, Frostwyrms. There may be Death Knights that join the Forsaken but those are in the Alliance as well, so the strongest Scourge Elite Force that they got is probably represented in roughly equal numbers in the alliance. And if we would go for WC3, the Paladins of the Alliance, no further filled with Draenei, Dwarfen and Lightforged Paladins that were not there back in wc3 would simply annihilate the Forsaken forces through Holy Light. Its in fact the users of the Holy Light who were neutered in WoW.

A good example of this neutering? Sylvanas is the Banshee Queen, yet she for some reason isn't allowed to Banshee because... you know she'd be too op.
Banshee's can mute magic users, possess powerful people including even Val'kyr and have necromantic powers.

Another example of neutering? Paladins could mass rezz 6 dead people permanently to full live back in WC3. Imagine if the Paladins still could do that. It would be effectively cockblock the Val'kyr, because what they can do, Paladins could simply do better, while burning their enemies to crisp. Not to forget how Dispell Magic was stripped from Priest.

[Azahel]

The entire shtick with forsaken is their free will. Sure, Sylvanas is the absolute ruler, but if she actively and openly retaliated against the council she would look like a hypocrite by rejecting the very idea of her people's existence.

She is already a huge hypocrite for the whole "what are we if not slaves to this torment" and then proceeding to inflict the same uppon others.
It's like Garrosh (and the Horde lately) saying "live by these words, victory or death" and then running away from a battle with neither. What's one more hypocrisy?

[Zulkhan]

She is already a huge hypocrite for the whole "what are we if not slaves to this torment" and then proceeding to inflict the same uppon others.
It's like Garrosh (and the Horde lately) saying "live by these words, victory or death" and then running away from a battle with neither. What's one more hypocrisy?

Considered the Horde, alongside all the other forces opposing it, indeed claimed victory over Legion your complaint about "muh hypocrisy" is moot. People seem to understand jackshit of Orc history and clearly doesn't understand that never the Horde ran into a guaranteed suicide. If a battle cannot be won then you lead your forces away and save your troops for when they'll be able to truly make a difference.

This idea that "Victory or death" is the same thing as blindly fighting no matter what is nothing but shitty headcanon.