Should the UK Invoke Article 5 After Chemical Weapon Attack?

[Felya]

or believe the Russians helped Trump instead of Clinton being a deplorable.

You mean those believing reality? or those backing a NYC oligarch, because he is a blue collar billionaire, to stop the NYC elite who was mother and woman of the year in Arkansas...

[Deleted]

How is it more likely than a state-run assassination from a guy who is famous for assassinating political enemies?

What? Putin wasn't running around playing KGB agent poisoning people.

[Felya]

What? Putin wasn't running around playing KGB agent poisoning people.

He was a KGB agent... you wouldn’t know if he ran around poisoning people as part of his job... because he was a KGB agent...

[Gaaz]

What's terrifying is how easily the Russian people are brainwashed by propaganda

What is far more terrifying is that people lost ability to doubt and of critical thinking, instead going for emotional "us vs them". Personally, I am yet to see a single coherent argument in favor of "Russians did that" a week before their presidential elections, using an agent they gave to UK two decades ago that is stored and produced in a lab 10 miles from the incident, to a spy that got released alive from a Russian prison 6 years ago, and even failing to complete the job.
I can see reasons why UK might have been behind this mess - failing Brexit negotiations, May's falling out of office, economic recession just to pick a few. Using a spent asset to divert attention is a sure way to get public opinion back in your favor, you just have to appoint a scapegoat. Plenty of examples to that. I can also see how a 3rd party might have been involved. Could have been anything from an arms deal gone wrong (bad handling of an agent?) to a classic tin foil hat scheme of damaging UK - Russia relations even further (profit from sanctions?). Thing is, it could be anything at that point. We do not have ANY evidence yet. And I do not see logic behind Russian involvement in this mess in terms of motive. Assassination Russian style is an ice pick to the head, not a spy movie fantasy.

[Deleted]

or believe the Russians helped Trump instead of Clinton being a deplorable.

One of those has more evidence than the other

[caervek]

Well yeah US eat up propaganda but this is about Russians trying to claim innocence

Having read the thread I honestly don't think the Russian guy is trying to claim innocence, just innocence until proven guilty. Then problem is whenever he tries to point out that there are other possible explanations and we don't know anything for certain yet and should keep an open mind the Russophobes flame him to a cinder.

[Deleted]

What is far more terrifying is that people lost ability to doubt and of critical thinking, instead going for emotional "us vs them". Personally, I am yet to see a single coherent argument in favor of "Russians did that" a week before their presidential elections, using an agent they gave to UK two decades ago that is stored and produced in a lab 10 miles from the incident, to a spy that got released alive from a Russian prison 6 years ago, and even failing to complete the job.
I can see reasons why UK might have been behind this mess - failing Brexit negotiations, May's falling out of office, economic recession just to pick a few. Using a spent asset to divert attention is a sure way to get public opinion back in your favor, you just have to appoint a scapegoat. Plenty of examples to that. I can also see how a 3rd party might have been involved. Could have been anything from an arms deal gone wrong (bad handling of an agent?) to a classic tin foil hat scheme of damaging UK - Russia relations even further (profit from sanctions?). Thing is, it could be anything at that point. We do not have ANY evidence yet. And I do not see logic behind Russian involvement in this mess in terms of motive. Assassination Russian style is an ice pick to the head, not a spy movie fantasy.

Probably because Russia has more motive and previous. Also why would the UK care about Russia's corrupt election and harm it's own citizens

[Deleted]

Looks like another one is dead.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...is-london-home

[Machismo]

What? Putin wasn't running around playing KGB agent poisoning people.

Yep, more lies and conspiracy theories... it's all you know.

[Deleted]

Having read the thread I honestly don't think the Russian guy is trying to claim innocence, just innocence until proven guilty. Then problem is whenever he tries to point out that there are other possible explanations and we don't know anything for certain yet and should keep an open mind the Russophobes flame him to a cinder.

I don't know I have seen his previous comments before. I am cynical

[Netherspark]

So you want WW3 ? Gl hf
Also, this chemichal gas, or whatever it was, was made in USSR. Do you know how many former Soviet republics are now independent countries? In any of those countries might be such weapon. So argument that it was made in ussr proves nothing. Do your homework better.
p.s. Personally im sure that it was we who did that, and i see nothing wrong in killing betrayers. But to blame someone you guys need better proofs.

"Nothing wrong in Killing betrayers", by launching chemical attacks on the British public on British soil?

It's pretty much guaranteed that it was the Russians who did it, but no, I don't think Article 5 is very likely to be invoked at all. The thing is this was a very professional, targetted, attack. Realistically speaking, the rest of the UK was never in any danger, the people who do things like this aren't the types to 'whoops, dropped the chemical weaponry and wiped out half a city. What a butterfingers!'. The UK is mad because it's embarrassing that they failed to protect a person they promised to, not because they feel threatened.

Four people were directly infected. Dozens were treated for minor exposure, and traces of the nerve agent are still lingering in resturants and all around the local area....

[Shalcker]

As they said either Russia is aware of this or Russia has lost complete control about their military arsenal. In both scenarios they look bad on the global stage, not that that's new their incompetence has been know for decades now.

Again, Russia haven't been "in control" of those chemical weapons and sites of their production for decades; scientists who made them live in US, not Russia.

In fact, experts are saying it was never even formally accepted as munition for Russian armed forces (so, never was part of Russian military arsenal); it remained experimental product.

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How is it more likely than a state-run assassination from a guy who is famous for assassinating political enemies?

Israel is also famous for assassinations, has active chemical and biological weapons programs, and currently has a beef with Russia over Syria...

[Machismo]

Again, Russia haven't been "in control" of those chemical weapons and sites of their production for decades; scientists who made them live in US, not Russia.

In fact, experts are saying it was never even formally accepted as munition for Russian armed forces (so, never was part of Russian military arsenal); it remained experimental product.

- - - Updated - - -

Israel is also famous for assassinations, has active chemical and biological weapons programs, and currently has a beef with Russia over Syria...

Once again, why would they get rid of a Russian "traitor?"

You guys are full of shit, keep trying to deflect more. You must have no self respect to continuously push bullshit narratives for your glorious leader.

[Shalcker]

Once again, why would they get rid of a Russian "traitor?"

To cause exact situation we're seeing now?

As multiple people already said, for "Russian state" to target him would not make any sense too - they had plenty of opportunities if they wanted him dead while he was in Russian prison.

[Acidbaron]

What's terrifying is how easily the Russian people are brainwashed by propaganda

Only terrifying if you are naive. It's perfectly normal in todays Russia that being a traitor leads to a heart attack.

Shame, that ailment hasn't fallen onto Putin and his FSB lap dogs yet who's the biggest traitor to his own nation.

[Machismo]

To cause exact situation we're seeing now?

As multiple people already said, for "Russian state" to target him would not make any sense too - they had plenty of opportunities if they wanted him dead while he was in Russian prison.

Once again, that makes no sense at all. Putin is famous for exacting revenge on political enemies. He is BY FAR the most likely instigator. Your continued attempts to shill for the murderous tyrant you call a leader are embarrassing.

[Shalcker]

Once again, that makes no sense at all. Putin is famous for exacting revenge on political enemies. He is BY FAR the most likely instigator. Your continued attempts to shill for the murderous tyrant you call a leader are embarrassing.

There are no obvious reasons to target Skripal specifically right now after all those years of inaction (and plenty of reasons to delay it at least until after FIFA even if they did want him dead).

Involving family members is also far from usual.

[rda]

What I see:

1. Someone killed a former Russian officer who went West and a couple of other people who happened to be close.

2. It quickly became apparent that the weapon was a chemical of Russian origin. (I am going to ignore the non-point regarding the plant being in Uzbekistan, this does not matter at all, the production did not belong to Uzbekistan ever.)

3. The Brits immediately sent a note to Russia awaiting for one of the two possible reactions: (a) the chemical was not guarded well / was traded - in which case there should be people held responsible and contermeasures taken, preferably in public (but perhaps showing what they are to the Brits in private would do), or (b) "it wasn't us / we don't know anything" - in which case the Brits will conclude that it was something related to the Russian government or upper crime echelons, and since Russia won't punish them, it's on the UK to do so.

4. The reaction from Russia turned out to be (b) "it wasn't us / we don't know anything".

Now obviously the ball is on the side of the UK. Whether they will have the gall to do anything of consequence, we will soon know. What would be of consequence is freezing the property of Russian oligarchs who keep a lot of their money in London, but this will take real effort because the oligarchs will, of course, mobilize all kinds of lawyers and these lawyers will, of course, be happy to be defending them forever. The UK and the West in general were always all too happy to host dirty money from Russia (and from wherever, really). Now they get to live with the consequences - they get dangerous chemicals on their streets and this is, surprise, surprise, hard to stop. It's bad for everyone, and, yes, the West is partly responsible.

[Machismo]

There are no obvious reasons to target Skripal specifically right now after all those years of inaction.

Involving family members is also far from usual.

Well, other than the idea that he was a "traitor" and Putin likes to murder people, and also likes to send messages. Feel free to continue defending a murderer, it's all you do.

But hey, I expect you to try and turn it around and blame Obama for it all.

[Shalcker]

2. It quickly became apparent that the weapon was a chemical of Russian origin. (I am going to ignore the non-point regarding the plant being in Uzbekistan, this does not matter at all, the production did not belong to Uzbekistan ever.)

You would be wrong on that point. After split of USSR production plant did belong to Uzbekistan, and was their ongoing concern until US helped dismantle it and clear the testing area in 1999.

Now obviously the ball is on the side of the UK. Whether they will have the gall to do anything of consequence, we will soon know. What would be of consequence is freezing the property of Russian oligarchs who keep a lot of their money in London, but this will take real effort because the oligarchs will, of course, mobilize all kinds of lawyers and these lawyers will, of course, be happy to be defending them forever. The UK and the West were always all too happy to host dirty money from Russia (and from wherever, really). Now they get to live with the consequences - they get dangerous chemicals on their streets and this is, surprise, surprise, hard to stop. It's bad for everyone, and, yes, the West is partly responsible.

Now, as far as clamping down on dirty money goes i'm in full support; and it is quite sad we're very unlikely to see that.