Should the UK Invoke Article 5 After Chemical Weapon Attack?

[rda]

Involving family members is also far from usual.

They were killed because of the nature of the chemical. Too toxic.

[Shalcker]

Well, other than the idea that he was a "traitor" and Putin likes to murder people, and also likes to send messages. Feel free to continue defending a murderer, it's all you do.

Again, why now? Can you give me the reason, even if Putin is totally murderous autocrat, why would he get him killed now?

What kind of "message" do you think he is sending?

[Gaaz]

Probably because Russia has more motive and previous. Also why would the UK care about Russia's corrupt election and harm it's own citizens

That is exactly what I am getting at. I see no motive for Russians to do that. Especially to an agent they could have killed thousands of times already while he was in their prison. Especially not that messy. And UK would not care about Russian elections. But Russia would! And making a mess before them is counterproductive.
Also, it is not like UK, or I should probably say numerous European countries were not affiliated with false flag operations previously. Israel bombing synagogues in France, trying to sparkle Jew-Arab tensions, Iran coup (UK+US), several Dutch and German operations, Egypt bombings... Even as far as 2011 we see cases where false flag mass shootings were used to direct public opinion (Ukraine). Successfully I might add, despite audio and video evidence of crimes.
Basically, I am very skeptical until I see evidence. Because right now it looks like a medieval witch trial - no presumption of innocence until you burn or drown to death.

[Machismo]

Again, why now? Can you give me the reason, even if Putin is totally murderous autocrat, why would he get him killed now?

What kind of "message" do you think he is sending?

Why not? Putin often likes to exert power, and he does it fairly often. He has gone after many political enemies at seemingly random times.

Keep up the shilling, it's adorable. You are defending a murderous tyrant.

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That is exactly what I am getting at. I see no motive for Russians to do that. Especially to an agent they could have killed thousands of times already while he was in their prison. Especially not that messy. And UK would not care about Russian elections. But Russia would! And making a mess before them is counterproductive.
Also, it is not like UK, or I should probably say numerous European countries were not affiliated with false flag operations previously. Israel bombing synagogues in France, trying to sparkle Jew-Arab tensions, Iran coup (UK+US), several Dutch and German operations, Egypt bombings... Even as far as 2011 we see cases where false flag mass shootings were used to direct public opinion (Ukraine). Successfully I might add, despite audio and video evidence of crimes.
Basically, I am very skeptical until I see evidence. Because right now it looks like a medieval witch trial - no presumption of innocence until you burn or drown to death.

This isn't a court. It's a case of Putin and his murderous buddies going after a political enemy in order to prove a point. He has done it many times in the past.

[Acidbaron]

What is far more terrifying is that people lost ability to doubt and of critical thinking, instead going for emotional "us vs them". Personally, I am yet to see a single coherent argument in favor of "Russians did that" a week before their presidential elections, using an agent they gave to UK two decades ago that is stored and produced in a lab 10 miles from the incident, to a spy that got released alive from a Russian prison 6 years ago, and even failing to complete the job.
I can see reasons why UK might have been behind this mess - failing Brexit negotiations, May's falling out of office, economic recession just to pick a few. Using a spent asset to divert attention is a sure way to get public opinion back in your favor, you just have to appoint a scapegoat. Plenty of examples to that. I can also see how a 3rd party might have been involved. Could have been anything from an arms deal gone wrong (bad handling of an agent?) to a classic tin foil hat scheme of damaging UK - Russia relations even further (profit from sanctions?). Thing is, it could be anything at that point. We do not have ANY evidence yet. And I do not see logic behind Russian involvement in this mess in terms of motive. Assassination Russian style is an ice pick to the head, not a spy movie fantasy.

The history between us and Russia is filled with events where Russia sours the relationships and inflicts self harm. It is almost as if the Kremlin foreign policy is that of a sub and a dominatrix where the kremlin is clearly the sub, perhaps that's why its government treats their own so badly.

Russia could have been a strong european partner after the world war ended, but instead of sending food and aide they send and installed political figures with the intend to destabilize and they succeeded in some places.

Russia even today could have changed that attitude but still they fund extremist movements and deploy misinformation campaigns, they failed in western europe again but managed to influence Greek among others politician to be their agents. History will merely repeat itself so i would not be surprised if certain people ended up being found dead or hung from a tree again.

Could have not invaded Ukraine and come up with a peaceful solution but nope.

The list is endless and at the end of the ride the result is always the same, The Kremlin further isolates themselves on the global stage, further hurts their own people due to the sanctions they keep almost begging for as it's a great way to keep the fire burning.


You greatly over estimate the "fear factor" or the whole "us vs them" thing. It is not nearly as big, it's barely a fraction of what you see on Russia state TV how they depict the west. You might argue that the US news over sells it but they oversell every single thing, so that again hardly makes you anything special. It is Russia that keeps this "us vs them" fire burning and for good reason, you know the reasons you listed them you should accredited them to the wrong nation, replace that with Russia and you'll become a bit wiser, though i doubt you would want to wake up the reality of the situation, i'm not sure i would if i was Russian.


Anyway have fun in this debate, not sure what denial gets you perhaps maybe just a good night sleep? *shrugs*

[Shalcker]

They were killed because of the nature of the chemical. Too toxic.

It is supposed to be quite fast-acting, and reported slow effect where they could walk around is unexpected - rather, it shows it not being toxic enough for some reason. We don't even know in which form it was found in their house (if it was).

Noone is killed yet too.

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Why not? Putin often likes to exert power, and he does it fairly often. He has gone after many political enemies at seemingly random times.

Because he has elections in less then a week. And FIFA 2018 on which he spent billions.

You seriously think he values those billions less then life of one aged traitor?

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The list is endless and at the end of the ride the result is always the same, The Kremlin further isolates themselves on the global stage, further hurts their own people due to the sanctions they keep almost begging for as it's a great way to keep the fire burning.

I see propaganda is strong in your country.

[Acidbaron]

It is supposed to be quite fast-acting, and reported slow effect where they could walk around is unexpected - rather, it shows it not being toxic enough for some reason. We don't even know in which form it was found in their house (if it was).

Noone is killed yet too.

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Because he has elections in less then a week. And FIFA 2018 on which he spent billions.

You seriously think he values those billions less then life of one aged traitor?

How is this damaging his campaign when it fuels the fire once more of the western hatred, the "NATO aggressor" lie, where in Father Putin much like Stalin is depicted as the one only savior.

Ah well who am i talking to, might as well have more luck trying to convince a sheep to no longer eat grass.

[Deleted]

Probably because Russia has more motive and previous. Also why would the UK care about Russia's corrupt election and harm it's own citizens

because it does it all the time?

Once again, why would they get rid of a Russian "traitor?"

You guys are full of shit, keep trying to deflect more. You must have no self respect to continuously push bullshit narratives for your glorious leader.

That sounds like more of these lies and conspiracies you talk about.

[Machismo]

It is supposed to be quite fast-acting, and reported slow effect where they could walk around is unexpected - rather, it shows it not being toxic enough for some reason. We don't even know in which form it was found in their house (if it was).

Noone is killed yet too.

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Because he has elections in less then a week. And FIFA 2018 on which he spent billions.

You seriously think he values those billions less then life of one aged traitor?

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I see propaganda is strong in your country.

You literally did the same thing he did... tried to blame the Jews. Seriously, how often do you have to download your official talking points from the administration?

Sorry, this is a clear trend of the Putin regime murdering and attacking political enemies.

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because it does it all the time?



That sounds like more of these lies and conspiracies you talk about.

Sorry, you are the proven liar on these threads.

[kaelleria]

It is supposed to be quite fast-acting, and reported slow effect where they could walk around is unexpected - rather, it shows it not being toxic enough for some reason. We don't even know in which form it was found in their house (if it was).

Noone is killed yet too.

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Because he has elections in less then a week. And FIFA 2018 on which he spent billions.

You seriously think he values those billions less then life of one aged traitor?

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I see propaganda is strong in your country.

Someone has been killed...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nikolai...sky-associate/

Call me crazy, but if a foreign power is killing on a NATO allies soil, that seems like they can invoke article 5.

[Deleted]

What's terrifying is how easily the Russian people are brainwashed by propaganda

It's not their politicians and press that are acting like they're in bad james bond, knock off movie.

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Sorry, you are the proven liar on these threads.

All you've proven is you call people names like liar or conspiracy theorist or russian space agent shills.

[Machismo]

It's not their politicians and press that are acting like they're in bad james bond, knock off movie.

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All you've proven is you call people names like liar or conspiracy theorist or russian space agent shills.

I've literally proven your lies with your own quotes and evidence. Sorry, that's all you do... lie and push conspiracy theories.

[Xeones]

or believe the Russians helped Trump instead of Clinton being a deplorable.

Is your avatar a reference to your delusions?

[Skroe]

It should have consulations to do so. Absolutely. But I would not suggest doing so in order to not cheapen the impact of Article V.

At the very least:

- Russia must be put on the list of State Sponsors of Terror.

- The assets of wealthy and connected Russian citizens in the West must be seized

- Russian's must be broadly expelled from the West, and travel visas not issued

- NATO must order Russia to reduce their diplomatic staff in Europe and America to a skeleton crew.

- All business deals with Russia must be banned until further notice.

- Western Intelligence should start systematically eliminating members of Vladmir Putin's inner circle.



Russia categorically committed an act of war here, utilizing a chemical weapon, in a NATO country. Period. The only thing saving them, yet again, is their nuclear arsenal that one day, poverty will relieve them of. But that day isn't here yet. So we must do everything we can to to bring that day soon.

You want to retaliate against Russia? Like really retaliate in a way that will have an extremely long lasting significance?

Make. Them. Poor(er).

A Russia that is poor - truly, truly poor - cannot afford its international adventurism and nuclear arsenal. The best way to break Russia's back is and has always been through economics. The West must not be threatened by a country with the GDP of Portugal.

[Shalcker]

How is this damaging his campaign when it fuels the fire once more of the western hatred, the "NATO aggressor" lie, where in Father Putin much like Stalin is depicted as the one only savior.

How is that helping his campaign exactly?

If that was his aim, he could bring up plenty of other things; there is no shortage of them. Why manufacture one? :/

No, it would had to be something aimed to "prove something" to UK specifically; but, again, that doesn't make sense to do right before elections. Right after elections maybe. Or right after FIFA 2018.

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Someone has been killed...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nikolai...sky-associate/
Call me crazy, but if a foreign power is killing on a NATO allies soil, that seems like they can invoke article 5.

Another example of propaganda causing you to jump to conclusions.

Someone died at 69... they are not saying killed in that article.

And, you know, we have plenty of speculations that Berezovsky was killed by UK... because it doesn't make sense to kill him for Russia right after he sent letter to Putin asking being allowed to return to Russia.

[Kuntantee]

Was UK attacked?

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edit:

I see, the two people got killed in UK. No, you can not invoke article 5 for such an irrelevant shit, that's not even guaranteed to be Russian job. And what will you do after invoking article 5, go war with Russia?

Not sure about you folks, I don't want to get glasses.

[Milchshake]

They should, but they won't and they almost can't. I mean - this is Russia we're talking about. It's a shadow of it's former self, but NATO can't just invade them, even if we have every right to do so.

Legit question: does this keep happening in the UK;

1. Because there's a large expat community there full of people Putin wants to murder?
2. Because there's enough journalists in the UK to publicize it; it happens elsewhere, but the UK ones are just louder?
3. Because something about the UK makes it easier to murder Putin's enemies there?
4. None of the above?

I wonder how Theo is taking this news. He keeps bragging about being a UK citizen. Also keeps playing this whole Russia thing is a hoax. How does a nihilist like this compute this attack? Blames Hillary?

[Wilian]

Was UK attacked?

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edit:

I see, the two people got killed in UK. No, you can not invoke article 5 for such an irrelevant shit, that's not even guaranteed to be Russian job. And what will you do after invoking article 5, go war with Russia?

Not sure about you folks, I don't want to get glasses.

Using highly potent military grade nerve agent against UK citizens (which include a police officer responder) sounds like attack to me. Even more so that anyone in the diner could have been exposed to it.

[cubby]

Was UK attacked?

Yes. Nerve agent.

I see, the two people got killed in UK. No, you can not invoke article 5 for such an irrelevant shit, that's not even guaranteed to be Russian job. And what will you do after invoking article 5, go war with Russia?

Why not? A WMD attack on NATO soil? Of course they CAN. They just won't. And shouldn't.

Not sure about you folks, I don't want to get glasses.

Wut? Glasses?

[Wilian]

Wut? Glasses?

He jumped to nuclear war.