Enemies of Skill Cap.

[Deleted]

The funny thing is that Mythic raiders (real ones and not pretended like OP) doesn't give a **** about people running around with high ilvl. What really matters is what you can clear or not. Only idiots are envy of (ilvl)number.

When WoW itemization will have an impact on skill, we will talk again. But so far, if you give 970 random gear (no tier, shitty trinket and so on) to 20 noob, they won't be able to clear even the first Mythic boss of current raid.

[Dmitro]

The funny thing is that Mythic raiders (real ones and not pretended like OP) doesn't give a **** about people running around with high ilvl. What really matters is what you can clear or not. Only idiots are envy of (ilvl)number.

I am not a mythic raider lmao, never pretended to be one ( I am a gladiator in arenas) > you clearly lacking reading capabilities because my entire OP was about whining how blizz is doing class designs aroud mythic raiding, while leaving other game aspects like arenas dying due to simplistic 90 iq twice pruned disgraced specs

2)btw, a nooby 970 will perform maybe at 70% rate of an average mythic raider withing a week, in legion dps rotations are ez pz to grasp, make the same experiment with cata and mop classes (lets say - mm hunter) and see what happens, thanks for proving that class complexity should mean much more in this game that some mythic raid mechanics

[Deleted]

I am not a mythic raider lmao, never pretended to be one ( I am a gladiator in arenas) > you clearly lacking reading capabilities because my entire OP was about whining how blizz is doing class designs aroud mythic raiding, while leaving other game aspects like arenas dying due to simplistic 90 iq twice pruned disgraced specs

2)btw, a nooby 970 will perform maybe at 70% rate of an average mythic raider withing a week, in legion dps rotations are ez pz to grasp, make the same experiment with cata and mop classes (lets say - mm hunter) and see what happens, thanks for proving that class complexity should mean much more in this game that some mythic raid mechanics

Oh yeah you are the one who still think about PvP in WoW!

And yeah good luck finding a Mythic guild with 970 ilvl with items coming from only Mythic+ and weekly chests.

Oh oh and gratz for pulling % out of thin air. Sorry for you, but Mythic raid partecipation REAL numbers say the exact opposite.

[Dmitro]

Oh yeah you are the one who still think about PvP in WoW!

And yeah good luck finding a Mythic guild with 970 ilvl with items coming from only Mythic+ and weekly chests.

Oh oh and gratz for pulling % out of thin air. Sorry for you, but Mythic raid partecipation REAL numbers say the exact opposite.

1) Ye, the most complex aspect of the game with constant decision making involved, whats wrong with that? Some people are creative and enhoy unpredictable gameplay, doing the same thing 500 pulls in ... I wouldnt say its complex when it comes to personal skill and personal skill only, its more about team work and your stamina to go through all these wipes
2) I can pull 1.9 m dps ST, while its like 2.5m for mythic raiders, on my ret having no tier bonuses at all and no mythic gear, was not a thing back then ( used to be if you're a pleb - you're a pleb), the gap is much lower today and its retarded to deny that. (It would be even lower if ret wasnt that simplistic, I am great mechanically)
3) How in the world you changed the topic about class complexity to mythic raid participation ( I guess you meant its complexity), 2 different things, my example makes perfect sense due to 2 great prunings taht happened over the last 4 years, doing your ST rotation is SIGNIFICANTLY easier on pretty much every spec, would you like to argue about that and provide me with something opposite?

[Gaidax]

Some of specs could use quite a bit more of that "evil" pruning.

Destruction got a whole boatload of shit piled on it in Legion that muddied it up and detracted from the playstyle people enjoyed.

There is this pervasive belief that piling up more shit into spec with more and more abilities that turns the whole thing into a blob of abilities that cumulatively do something, but individually barely matter is some sort of good design, reality however is different.

Each spec should have a few well defined abilities that serve a purpose. There is no need for 3 builders, 4 spenders and 3 random CDs, because this just makes a mess and devalues each ability. You certainly don't need bloody 8 different spells in your priority list to have engaging and fun gameplay, if anything more abilities in priority list becomes both more annoying.

[Deleted]

1) Ye, the most complex aspect of the game with constant decision making involved, whats wrong with that? Some people are creative and enhoy unpredictable gameplay, doing the same thing 500 pulls in ... I wouldnt say its complex when it comes to personal skill and personal skill only, its more about team work and your stamina to go through all these wipes
2) I can pull 1.9 m dps ST, while its like 2.5m for mythic raiders, on my ret having no tier bonuses at all and no mythic gear, was not a thing back then ( used to be if you're a pleb - you're a pleb), the gap is much lower today and its retarded to deny that. (It would be even lower if ret wasnt that simplistic, I am great mechanically)
3) How in the world you changed the topic about class complexity to mythic raid participation ( I guess you meant its complexity), 2 different things, my example makes perfect sense due to 2 great prunings taht happened over the last 4 years, doing your ST rotation is SIGNIFICANTLY easier on pretty much every spec, would you like to argue about that and provide me with something opposite?

Listen very carefully because i don't want to feed your bullshit all day long: doing DPS on a dummy or against a Heroic boss is not even remotely close to a performance during a mythic raid, specially during progress and pre nerf. The gap in pure number maybe is lower, but the Raid difficulty is the real skill ceiling nowadays.

You don't like it? Don't play. Because this is the philosophy of WoW since quite a bit of year now. This direction was settled long before Legion.

[Flurryfang]

8 pm for me, 6-7 pm for most of NA.
around 200 people read the thread, no reply, my last thread got 100 views and already 10 replies, hmmm...

You sound like a guy with some problems, if you make a thread about your own thoughts and then critizize people for not reacting to your rage comment.


But overall, your opinion is your opinion, but don't try to put it out like you have made an observation that goes beyond your own opinion. Just the way, that you mention other opinions then your own shows quite clearly, that you feel that you are 100% in the right and will not accept anything else.

Overall, yeah, there is ofcourse some problems with some of the design, but they are also doing great in other parts of it. I don't think your rage comment deserve more noise then this.

[Dmitro]

Listen very carefully because i don't want to feed your bullshit all day long: doing DPS on a dummy or against a Heroic boss is not even remotely close to a performance during a mythic raid, specially during progress and pre nerf. The gap in pure number maybe is lower, but the Raid difficulty is the real skill ceiling nowadays.

You don't like it? Don't play. Because this is the philosophy of WoW since quite a bit of year now. This direction was settled long before Legion.

1) yes, thats a problem that can be solved with upruned classes, why you so against that?
2) if your whole point is "if you wanna find skill in the game you gotta do mythic raiding" (which is honestly boring for individualistic and creative players, repetitive content without anything new or unpredictable happening is always boring) then I dont agree with you, you have to understand it, theres game outside of mythic raiding and it needs to be fixed, which is what this topic is for and somehow you're so against that lmao

[Gaidax]

Your "unpruned" classes means classes that both are overloaded with trash and are omnipotent. That would not make things more challenging or have higher skill cap, it will make shit easier simply because you will be able to hard counter 100% of stuff PvE throws at you.

Classes already have too much of that shit, there needs to be less tools not more, if you want challenge and not the bullshit we devolved into where unless raid encounter introduces critical failure oneshots it is easy.

[Dmitro]

Your "unpruned" classes means classes that both are overloaded with trash and are omnipotent. That would not make things more challenging or have higher skill cap, it will make shit easier simply because you will be able to hard counter 100% of stuff PvE throws at you.

Classes already have too much of that shit, there needs to be less tools not more, if you want challenge and not the bullshit we devolved into where unless raid encounter introduces critical failure oneshots it is easy.

Oh sure honey, I remember not using 90% of my 35 abilities (literally had 40+ binds) in arenas and duels as my mm hunter back in cata, wow, so good we only have around 20 now! thanks blizz!

(btw it was sarcasm and as a 3 times gladiator I GOD DAMN KNOW how many abilities were fun and useful and how many of them are left now)

you freaking pvers dont know the game aside from doing your rotation and dodging mechanics, hello, theres things to do outside of dungeons and raids, and there class prunings hit the most (tahts why pvp participation fell 10 times from mop to 3s of legion, 10 FREAKING TIMES)

But even in PVE people are whining about rotations getting to ez and utilities getting pruned which makes most specs pretty straightforward and not creative in play, the brightest examples are ofc hunters,palas, sps,prot warriors, its not just "stupid pvpers issue" (tho it hit us 3 times harder)

Make the skill cap in classes (not mythic raid mechanics) CLASSES wide again

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You sound like a guy with some problems, if you make a thread about your own thoughts and then critizize people for not reacting to your rage comment.


But overall, your opinion is your opinion, but don't try to put it out like you have made an observation that goes beyond your own opinion. Just the way, that you mention other opinions then your own shows quite clearly, that you feel that you are 100% in the right and will not accept anything else.

Overall, yeah, there is ofcourse some problems with some of the design, but they are also doing great in other parts of it. I don't think your rage comment deserve more noise then this.

you gonna now the context, before that I created a thread with pure caps lock raging about the same stuff, people filled the first page within like 20 minutes (and 28 pages in 3 days) with "huh... nothing constructive to say... huh so stupid lmao!", once this thread with detailed explanations appeared it was freaking dead with 0 replies for a couple of hours for some reason, weird, I thought most of people were just waiting for "constructive" criticism, apparently not, which I pointed out.

but don't try to put it out like you have made an observation that goes beyond your own opinion.

I did make it, its based both on my huge experience in arenas (where classes shine the most due to obvious reasons) and some semi-hardcore pve experience in cata and semi-casual today, I have also played the game since 2006 and I do have a great memory.

Overall, yeah, there is ofcourse some problems with some of the design

there are no problems, there are PROBLEMS, thats why we have dozens of people literally shitting their pants raging about how disappointing bfa classes look (because lots of people were expected big turn-around unprune, but so far we are losing more stuff and mechanics lmao wtf)

check every class subforum, go do it

[tyrlaan]

Amazed this has made it to page 5.

To the OP, just quit the damn game already. You're not here for an actual discussion, surely you can come up with better things to do with your time than hang hopes on being able to brow beat other posters. And if you have this much piss and vinegar over WoW, it's time for a break.

Might I recommend a game with a solid solo experience, perhaps one that doesn't have MMO in it's description. You can even work on a less embarrassing sig while the game is downloading!

[Dmitro]

Amazed this has made it to page 5.

To the OP, just quit the damn game already. You're not here for an actual discussion, surely you can come up with better things to do with your time than hang hopes on being able to brow beat other posters. And if you have this much piss and vinegar over WoW, it's time for a break.

Might I recommend a game with a solid solo experience, perhaps one that doesn't have MMO in it's description. You can even work on a less embarrassing sig while the game is downloading!

1) no, i am not a quitter, i will fight and whine for a better world of warcraft, you should too!
2) who said that I need solo games? I hate them and havent played a single one since 2011, WoW is the best game in the world, its just shit now and should be healed... (:
3) my sig is totally fine, stop reacting to it literally every message you type towards me

[OreoLover]

I've explained it 6 times to 3 different people (including you) and still you having a massive choking experience understanding simple (repeat - VERY simple truth)

if tommy kills X boss he should only get X reward
if bobby kills Y boss he should only get Y reward
if jimmy is a freaking mythic raider he should get the best gear in the game with tommy and bobby being not even close, BECAUSE MYTHIC RAIDING IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THEM HEROICS AND NORMALS IN TERMS HOW DIFFICULT IT IS

Theres a better word "difficult", gearing should be more difficult, class designs should be more hard and complex. (the entire thread in 1 sentence for you)

There are other rewards for Jimmy (#3).

Jimmy gets mounts, titles, achievements, accomplishment (the feeling) from achievement, cosmetic gear boosts, bragging rights...

As you have said a few times, the lower skilled players will never *truly* compete with the better (Jimmy). So, even if they have some gear with a similar number (random-chance, slower to acquire), they will not be competitive.

"Difficult" -- that is clearly a preference/perspective. Some find the game difficult enough, some go into the greatest difficulty and blow most of us away (even with worse gear).

Difficult class design most benefits addon-reliant folk, when it comes time to balance the game/show off their impressive ability to play finger DDR (click the glowing buttons very quickly).

Difficult times gearing benefits... no one? Cosmetics, titles, mounts, BoEs, etc. are better motivators to increase difficulty, and make the game less ridiculous to balance.

[Dmitro]

There are other rewards for Jimmy (#3).

Jimmy gets mounts, titles, achievements, accomplishment (the feeling) from achievement, cosmetic gear boosts, bragging rights...

As you have said a few times, the lower skilled players will never *truly* compete with the better (Jimmy). So, even if they have some gear with a similar number (random-chance, slower to acquire), they will not be competitive.

"Difficult" -- that is clearly a preference/perspective. Some find the game difficult enough, some go into the greatest difficulty and blow most of us away (even with worse gear).

Difficult class design most benefits addon-reliant folk, when it comes time to balance the game/show off their impressive ability to play finger DDR (click the glowing buttons very quickly).

Difficult times gearing benefits... no one? Cosmetics, titles, mounts, BoEs, etc. are better motivators to increase difficulty, and make the game less ridiculous to balance.

1) yes, but these are side rewards, while we are talking about the major ones.
2) its not even the issue to the most part, the problem is people that dont deserve named gear getting it, how on earth you find it right in the first place? for what reason you all guys are defending this stupid welfare system in legion?
3) nope, you got 0 clue of what you talking about, the most difficult itterations of classes were considered to be in wotlk (especially in pvp) its also had the lowest amount of proc mechanics to every expansion after that (procs kinda first appeared in cata for most classes), wrath was complex cause too many damn spells to handle and classes had lots of punishing mechanics

you guys probably dont remember but warriors main CD used to give him +20% increased damage on himself, so while noobs were dying from that lots of times, pros knew how to handle, now its gone, and thats what I call trash class designs. Punishing mechanics no longer exist in the game.

or ret paladins, bubble used to not be fucking auto (thankfully its going away in bfa) and it would also decrease the amount of damage you do by 50% so sometimes you'd have to make a decision of whether to cancel bubble or not (was tough in pvp), now... you guessed it right... its gone.

and I can give lots of examples for many classes, what made them fun unique and complex before and whats gone today, its not just buttons

yet somehow these freaking noobs are like "stop whining, classes are totally fine", pathetic

[tyrlaan]

1) no, i am not a quitter, i will fight and whine for a better world of warcraft, you should too!
2) who said that I need solo games? I hate them and havent played a single one since 2011, WoW is the best game in the world, its just shit now and should be healed... (:
3) my sig is totally fine, stop reacting to it literally every message you type towards me

So based on the omissions in your reply, it's fair to assume you're not here for an actual discussion then, right?

Many people seem to disagree with your take on WoW being "shit" now, so good luck on your crusade. Appreciate your candor when you call your posts whining though. Friendly advice - you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

You need solo games because you've called yourself "not a team player".

If you don't want reactions to your absurd sig, perhaps don't have it as a sig.

[Deleted]

You're not wrong, gameplay in terms of actual class mechanics was dumbed down to stupidity, no arguing that.

Like actual raids are a lot harder but that is not the point, you as an actual character and what you can do just went to shit and it makes no sense. For example, MoP elemental was extremely simple but it was so much fun to play, it was a blast and then spec got slowed and gutted to boring pile of shit for no reason, also why remove stuff just for the sake of removing it, if a spell is not used in 99% cases because it's useless why remove it, whats the harm is leaving it and letting people have their fun with it.

Like I understand when they decide to prune shit like EVERY spec having immunity, or EVERY spec having a way to lock you do for 10 years, but why make it a goal to strip specs of their identity and make them boring and easy as shit to play, just makes no sense. Look at boomkins from MoP/WoD, they were so much fun, I literally cannot bring myself to play one now cause of how boring it became, 0 depth.

I named 2 specs here but same happened to a lot of classes. Also just because a class is strong currently(Like both of those I named are) does not mean it's well made or is fun.

[tehdef]

> most of masteries, which made some specs a bit harder to play

This is why I stopped reading.

It's not good design to make a core mechanic of the game hard to play. It doesn't make things better. Optional skills can be harder to use/understand to create a higher ceiling.

Low floor, high ceiling.

That is how you get people involved.

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Ku Klux Klan thought black people are inferior having no direct evidence, Climate Change Cult believes in humans impact on climate without any particular piece of evidence. If you disagree - you are a "denier" of "obvious things"

Wow, this gave me cancer. So did your super poor grammar, capitalization, and general care for your "detailed criticism."

[OreoLover]

1) yes, but these are side rewards, while we are talking about the major ones.
2) its not even the issue to the most part, the problem is people that dont deserve named gear getting it, how on earth you find it right in the first place? for what reason you all guys are defending this stupid welfare system in legion?
3) nope, you got 0 clue of what you talking about, the most difficult itterations of classes were considered to be in wotlk (especially in pvp) its also had the lowest amount of proc mechanics to every expansion after that (procs kinda first appeared in cata for most classes), wrath was complex cause too many damn spells to handle and classes had lots of punishing mechanics

you guys probably dont remember but warriors main CD used to give him +20% increased damage on himself, so while noobs were dying from that lots of times, pros knew how to handle, now its gone, and thats what I call trash class designs. Punishing mechanics no longer exist in the game.

or ret paladins, bubble used to not be fucking auto (thankfully its going away in bfa) and it would also decrease the amount of damage you do by 50% so sometimes you'd have to make a decision of whether to cancel bubble or not (was tough in pvp), now... you guessed it right... its gone.

and I can give lots of examples for many classes, what made them fun unique and complex before and whats gone today, its not just buttons

yet somehow these freaking noobs are like "stop whining, classes are totally fine", pathetic

1) you gots zero clues about what you are talking, 50 iq guy
2) wrath had Howling Blast spam, etc. you noob who can't remember
3) side rewards are a best reward, way better than named gear. who even wants that crap, everyone has it!

I bet you can't remember but we used to juggle seals... we used to farm for fel lotus and boe gear... we used to have no good chat channels...

Your examples are practically unrelated to your requests. You're sad because: "people that dont deserve named gear get it"

So, you wanna be a special snowflake one player mode. And you want the top players to differ even more extremely from anyone below. Not good for the game.

[Tommi]

@Dmitro

When did you ever use Shield of the Righteous in PvP during Wrath as a Ret Paladin? it was an ability in your spellbook that no Ret Paladin used in PvP or PvE. You want that kind of shit back? Why? What's the point?

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you guys probably dont remember but warriors main CD used to give him +20% increased damage on himself, so while noobs were dying from that lots of times, pros knew how to handle, now its gone, and thats what I call trash class designs. Punishing mechanics no longer exist in the game.

So your solution to that game is to cater to the "pros"? The sub 10% of the game that are the loudest and most obnoxious cunts. Why would ANY company want to cater to those people? The ones who scream that said company is a pile of shit that don't know anything.

Newsflash: People like you is why we got an expansion like WOD. That Raid or die mentality. The "nothing outside of high end content matters" crew. Those people are a cancer to gaming.

If I ran a company like Blizz that had 5 mill subs, I'd rather listen to the ones who pay month after month and never really complain. They are my main source of money. I'd talk to the sub 10% who bitch and scream, but I wouldn't worry about them. If I lost every one of those 500K subs, I'd STILL have 4.5 mill others who were happy with the game.

[Dmitro]

> most of masteries, which made some specs a bit harder to play

This is why I stopped reading.

It's not good design to make a core mechanic of the game hard to play. It doesn't make things better. Optional skills can be harder to use/understand to create a higher ceiling.

Low floor, high ceiling.

That is how you get people involved.

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Wow, this gave me cancer. So did your super poor grammar, capitalization, and general care for your "detailed criticism."

I agree with you generally that complexity should be around properly using many spells instead of bulding dozens of mechanics around 1 dps spell (which is what masteries were in legion pretty much, especially CSmash ones)

but you know, with the current wow population who either didnt play before cata (so they dont what classes looked like) or just filthy casuals we aint getting big unprune any time soon, instead so far most of specs even lost their mechanics and spells lmao.

"Low floor, high ceiling. "

since wotlk the floor was getting lower and lower, so was ceiling, so we better inform blizzard about the need to unprune our classes