"Cynically negative" community cause of communication breakdown

[SirCowdog]

Sad they can't say this anymore because it's unbelievable after it was spammed by many CM's with nothing progressing from the Devs or getting back responses like this

I mean...I guess? We still don't actually know what "Classic" servers are. The point he was making about "You don't want that" was in reference to the buggy, outdated version that we originally played. And we REALLY don't want that(some of you ultra-purist masochists do, I guess?) But a vanilla server with bug fixes and maybe some smoothing out of the more ridiculous gameplay aspects? Who knows, really?


But yeah...talking to your customers only once a year from atop a stage where you preach at them about how awesome your plans are isn't really a conversation. The people who are willing to pay and travel to Blizzcon are already pre-disposed to liking WHATEVER you show them. It's not the same as interacting with your normal community the rest of the year when they have time to sit in the comfort of their own homes and really think about things.

[Mister Cheese]

What a dipshit. If you have a problem with a certain part of the community that doesn't mean stop engaging with them. Find out what their issues are. So you can fix them and help there be less negativity. Discussing problems the only way to fix them. Discuss shit with them. Don't openly declare that they are the problem.

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM ORNYX

[Spazlord]

Their issues are that they are reactionary hyperbolists who spit the dummy whenever anything changes. You can’t engage with people like that, they are irrational. They watch streamers with the same character traits and regurgitate the same BS. They are an echo chamber of idiocy. The game carries on just fine by ignoring every one of them.

Another problem I see is that of the Social Media Generation requiring the dopamine hit of a like, or a blue, or a thumb, or anything that signals to them that they were noticed. These are Blizzards forums. They see you. You don’t have to be replied to personally, and this goes especially for the kind of deranged foot stamping posts spouting how Blizz hates shaman, or PVP is literally cancer, or other such outbursts.

[Alteiry]

If you distance yourself from your customers you end up with Warlords of Draenor. If you listen to them you end up with MoP and Legions. You better listen to the people putting money in your pocket.

Listen to the customers who present rational and well thought out arguments*.

[Marmot]

Pretty sure the problem is people aren't articulating what their problem is. Instead choosing to post angrily or negatively with no real message other than "rawr i am anger".

[Crober]

"We'd love to talk to you if only you didn't constantly bring negativity with every thread, tweet, etc - why do you think we would want to engage with that? "

I find this line funny because he tends to post a good amount in threads to say how bad they are or that he's locking them. I just don't understand why they have a hard time balancing this.

Bad thread:"Hey locking this as it's not constructive, against forum guidelines, etc."
Good thread:"Hey, great discussion so far. Could you explain (insert feature) more, passing this along,etc."

[SirCowdog]

What a dipshit. If you have a problem with a certain part of the community that doesn't mean stop engaging with them. Find out what their issues are. So you can fix them and help there be less negativity. Discussing problems the only way to fix them. Discuss shit with them. Don't openly declare that they are the problem.

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM ORNYX

To be fair, there's not much discussion to be had with people that can barely form coherent sentences, and who's content amounts to, "You are a stupid dumb head. Do what I want or I'll piss myself in anger."

[Ielenia]

And this ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a Fanboy. The part I made like this is where you actually lost all credibility.

Except... that's what the haters make you believe, with the way they talk about the game and Blizzard. That they are intentionally making the game shit, "just for laughs".

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What a dipshit. If you have a problem with a certain part of the community that doesn't mean stop engaging with them. Find out what their issues are. So you can fix them and help there be less negativity. Discussing problems the only way to fix them. Discuss shit with them. Don't openly declare that they are the problem.

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM ORNYX

The "part of the community" that Ornyx "has a problem with" is not the ones that don't like the game. It's the ones who just whine and complain, never offering any constructive criticism and explaining why something is not right. The kind of people that goes "OMG BLIZZARD YOU FUCKED <class>!!" and "FUCK YOU BLIZZARD THIS FEATURE IS THE WORST THING EVER!!"

[Kellorion]

However, some of it, a fair bit of it actually, is on them: See WoD and there Twitters feeds during WoD, and saying they will get back to us on things and then not, or taking a look at something and then not.

[WowIsDead64]

Players become cynical mostly because "communication" is one-sided: Blizzard simply don't want to listen to their playerbase - they simply say "We're gamedevs - we know better, what is good for you". And in this case Ornyx behaves like a girl, who escalates conflict with her boy and then takes offence on his response. I won't be cynical, if Blizzard won't just silently make doubtful changes and then simply ignore all feedback - if they would be honest and tell me real reasons, why this changes are made, even if it would mean "this game is no longer for you".

[MoanaLisa]

Bad thread:"Hey locking this as it's not constructive, against forum guidelines, etc."
Good thread:"Hey, great discussion so far. Could you explain (insert feature) more, passing this along,etc."

Not enough discussion in this thread about the derailing effects of any appearance of blue text in a constructive thread. Combine that with their oft-stated goal of doing more listening than talking to players and you end up where it is. I think a more intrusive presence by either community managers or devs just ramps up the frenzy over there. They think that too by the way and have said so.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Making shit up. Some of you have difficulty admitting you do it.

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Wait, aren't templates just Blizzard listening to feedback? And yet here they are getting shit on for it. No wonder they don't like talking to people like you.

That's the catch-22 for Blizz. Everyone acts like "If they just listened to my feedback and did everything I suggest then everything would be perfect and everyone would be happy" when in reality we know that anything Blizz does - or fails to do - will draw criticism in the forums from somebody.

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To be fair, there's not much discussion to be had with people that can barely form coherent sentences, and who's content amounts to, "You are a stupid dumb head. Do what I want or I'll piss myself in anger."

Amen. So many people pretend that what they want will solve everything, as if "the community" ever agreed on what it wants. I mean, just look at how much we disagree in this one thread!

[splatomat]

Sorry, but no.

The pre-expansion fiasco with hunters compiling a 100+ page thread of feedback, and then the class rep acting like it didnt exist, and then creating a new one, and then almost nothing at all changing...is pretty common. Shaman and warlock and warrior players kept trying to hijack the "communication thread" because they hadn't even gotten one.

Blizzard's ability to communicate with their customers is a big old stinking turd. They don't listen. They don't care. They've got their marching orders. They're on rails. Nothing will change. You can assume that the vast majority of problems reported in beta will make it to launch because - wait for it - THEY ALWAYS DO.

I mean, FFS how many bugs do people encounter, and then say "I reported that in beta"? Like, all of them? WTF is the beta even for?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Pretty sure the problem is people aren't articulating what their problem is. Instead choosing to post angrily or negatively with no real message other than "rawr i am anger".

I agree that's part of it. I think it's a combination of things:

1. CMs are mostly there to moderate trolls and collect feedback, not to announce fixes.
2. CMs aren't authorized to commit developers to any particular fix, and can't promise anything until someone higher up authorizes it.
3. Sometimes a blue post triggers people and makes things worse.
4. Many players complain no matter what.
5. We don't all agree on what we want, so Blizz has to think about what is best for all.
6. Blizz also has to consider the possibility that what we think we want will not actually be good for the game in long term. This is not every situation, but can be true sometimes.
7. Players often complain about things in the short term that they end up praising in the long term (e.g., WotLK, MoP, Suramar).

[Xar226]

Apparently, Ornyx has grown used to yes men and Blizz boot-lickers being around him. Blizz shits on the game and a lot of people aren't happy with it (as evidenced by killing 70%+ of the PvP community as just one example). People express to CMs like Ornyx their dissatisfaction and annoyance, and he labels them "cynically negative" or some other ridiculous epithet instead of facing facts that the game has been steadily and slowly turned to RNG-shit-for-profit hamster wheel grinding.

Good satire! That's exactly the kind of nonsense he's talking about!

...wait. Shit, you were serious?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Sad they can't say this anymore because it's unbelievable after it was spammed by many CM's with nothing progressing from the Devs or getting back responses like this:<snip>

You think that WoW Classic is because they changed their minds about "You think you want it but you don't"? I think just the opposite. I think Classic will be both a WoW museum and proof that they were right all along. I expect millions to play on launch, and thousands to still be playing one month later.

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And yet is the complaint by CMs like Ornyx is that there's too much negativity, then it stands to reason that they should be doing what they can to mitigate it, and promote MORE intellegent and civil discussion. Simply slapping people down when they don't puke rainbows of positivity is only going to create more of what we're already seeing.

As I said, MAYBE they should try actually engaging with and promoting the kind of behavior they want to see instead of only nuking the negative. They don't need to get into a full-blown conversation, especially since a CM doesn't speak for the development process. But at the very least they could pop into a thread and say, "hey, this is some good info and conversation. I'll pass it along." Or, "This is the kind of discussion we like to see. Tell us more."

If nothing else, just tagging the good threads with blue go a long way. And if, from time to time, the CMs can bring back a response from the devs themselves, then so much the better. But it will at least create an environment where the community doesn't feel like it's being outright ignored.

Just dropping a "hey guys, we read these forums even if we don't respond" once every 3 months isn't going to generate the same effect as an active CM who's constantly making their presence felt by actually posting regularly. They're Community MANAGERS, not Community OBSERVERS, after all.

I think there is a path somewhere between "puking rainbows of positivity" and "cynical negativity" (i.e., rants and insults). If a consumer is unhappy with a product, they can...

• Be passive and accept it whether they like it or not (unlikely to get what you want).
• Be aggressive and go on a rant, insulting everyone who disagrees (unlikely to get what you want).
• Be assertive and explain your concern, then request a change that you think would improve things (still no guarantees, but more likely to help).

Note even being assertive is no guarantee. I can explain right now that I am concerned that forum posters are allowed to disagree with my divine wisdom, and ask very politely that moderators prevent the rest of you from posting, but the mods would of course decide that was neither balanced nor in the best interest of the forums. We argue in the forums every day. Blizz can't act on all feedback because so much of it is conflicting, and there are other players with opinions that aren't even here to express them.

[Deleted]

I'm not one to be overly positive about the state of the game, but when was the last time an entire class wasn't good enough for RAIDS as a whole? Surely we're not ONLY counting cutting edge content (mythic) but also at least heroic?

And even if we're only talking about mythic, I can't remember the last time all three specs of a class were unviable.

Just look at the state of hunters atm, none of its specs are viable. When you gimp your raid team with low dps then why would they take you over a aff lock? Class stacking has been a thing since vanilla and it won't go away as long as the spec aren't balanced overall.

Its supposed to be "bring the player not the class", but when some of the classes just aren't viable then their whole design philosophy goes down the drain.

I know you can kill bosses with a hunter in a normal or a hc raid, but it has always been possible with every class. Its just a matter if the rest of the group will put up with you.

[Vynny]

No, that is not his job.

Here's a list of job responsibilities from Blizzard's career site for community manager position in hearthstone (I couldn't find one for WoW, but they're most likely similar positions since they are the same position, in the same company, on the same forums, etc.)

1. Serve as the primary liaison between development, worldwide Hearthstone community, and product service teams
2. Rapidly gather questions and facilitate answers for regional community use
3. Consolidate and report on worldwide community trends, topics, and sentiment
4. Partner with the development team to create community messaging on owned/earned channels
5. Assist with creation of key messaging, reactive messaging, and FAQs for global use
6. Propose global engagement initiatives to support major milestone rollouts
7. Own global community events, including summits
8. Work with key stakeholders to determine needs for community events, activations, and engagement
9. Coordinate development team participation in community events, activations, and engagement
10. Support and facilitate content creation
11. Set requirements and manage process for promotional support (e.g., codes, game keys, swag)
12. Manage, coordinate, and execute livestreams
13. Provide oversight and governance of cross-region engagement activities surrounding major milestone rollouts and community events
14. Plan and execute on behalf of milestone livestreams
15. Support the management of Hearthstone influencers globally
16. Own the short and long term Hearthstone engagement content plan

The original wasn't numbered, but for the sake of readability I numbered them so that I can refer to them as responsibility number 1, 2, 3, etc. without having you count each line. Just keep in mind that they weren't numbered thus they probably are listed in any sort of meaningful order of importance.

Now that that's out of the way, look at responsibilities 1, 2, and 3. A community manager is expected to serve as the liaison between the devs and the community, gather questions and from the community, and consolidate and report on community trends, topics, and sentiments.

"sentiments" is a rather important word here. A community managers job isn't only to be the middle man between the devs and community, but it is to assess the tone and mood of the community and respond appropriately in light of that. Not responsibilities 4 and 5; they're not only saying that CM's are to report on those trends, topics, and sentiments, but also that they are to take those into account and use that knowledge to help the team engage with the community. It's almost like their job is to manage the community or something rather than being a glorified customer complaint receptacle.

I know that this might not make sense to you if you don't have any customer service experience, but paying customers are rightfully entitled to the time and efforts of those who are paid to service them. Again I pose the question, what would be the point of paying a team to manage the community if said community was capable of self managing in a way that allowed devs to see customer criticisms without having to wade through piles and piles of shit in order to get at the root of the issue?

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Here's a tip for all of you if you don't have a lot of life or real world experience.

The customer is NOT ALWAYS right.

Not all feedback is good feedback.

Not all opinions are created equally.

What you want may not be what a business wants.

Just because you have a microphone doesn't mean people should listen to you.

Except when . . . you know . . . that's what they're paid for . . .

And you're right, the customer is not always right, but it's the job of those who work in customer service to help steer the customer in the right direction and meet their needs as best as possible through engagement, assessment, and education.

Here are some simple steps I use in customer service that work pretty damn well:

1. engage with the customer to figure out where they are coming from
2. if you find out that a customer's viewpoint is wrong or half-baked then do not just outright tell them that they're wrong, try leading with what is valid about their criticism, but then bring up with what they might be missing. Never completely discredit a customers point of view, that leads to argument, not discussion.
3. if you've properly followed the prior steps then you should have a very strong chance of a productive engagement with the customer and will have successfully avoided the whole thing being derailed by getting into an argument with a customer.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, are customers entitled? Yes, they are! They're patronage pays your wages, so you're damn right that they're entitled to the time, effort, and care that it takes to properly engage with them and their criticisms. If you can't understand that then you're probably not cut out for customer service or just are privileged enough to have never had to work in customer service and probably aren't a good source of information on what can be reasonably expected from an interaction between a customer service worker and a customer.

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Pretty sure the problem is people aren't articulating what their problem is. Instead choosing to post angrily or negatively with no real message other than "rawr i am anger".

That's the whole point of having community managers. Seriously, the number of people who don't understand that the whole reason you have community management is because the community isn't going to self manage and be positive/constructive on its own is mind boggling. Lemme boil it down for ya, if it was a reasonable expectation for the community to articulate their problems in a clear and constructive manner then Ornyx and most of the other CM's would be out of a job.

I mean come on, when's the last time you saw a mob of people who are very passionate about something that didn't devolve into bickering, arguing, and negativity?

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Sorry, but no.

The pre-expansion fiasco with hunters compiling a 100+ page thread of feedback, and then the class rep acting like it didnt exist, and then creating a new one, and then almost nothing at all changing...is pretty common. Shaman and warlock and warrior players kept trying to hijack the "communication thread" because they hadn't even gotten one.

Blizzard's ability to communicate with their customers is a big old stinking turd. They don't listen. They don't care. They've got their marching orders. They're on rails. Nothing will change. You can assume that the vast majority of problems reported in beta will make it to launch because - wait for it - THEY ALWAYS DO.

I mean, FFS how many bugs do people encounter, and then say "I reported that in beta"? Like, all of them? WTF is the beta even for?

Part of me does wonder how far up the chain of command that apathy goes though. I mean, I could see a situation where most of the CM's actually do care a lot, but the devs refuse to listen to customer criticisms, or one where the CM's are spread woefully thin and the business end doesn't deign to give them the funding/manpower they need to properly engage with the deluge of complaints on the forums.

Naturally, the scenario where the breakdown in communications occurs at the CM's is probably part of the mix as well, but it just seems like this is too big and persistent of an issue for it to not be a systemic problem within the WoW team itself.

[Daethz]

Game communities are almost always negative as most people who do communicate with developers are unhappy while the happy ones don't even go on forums.

[Fattypudds]

Thanks Vynny, that was wonderful