Is this guild's leadership bad, or am I wrong in this?

[Deleted]

OP: I can't believe what some ppl are putting up with! I can't believe that a whole guild of mature ppl accepted these rules. If our rl would suggest something like this I'd kick him in the balls! Where do they get the idea that they are entitled to anything more than your regular raider? Fuck this guild!

[Essem]

Proper guild leaders/officers should pass on the mount, and let the raiders get it first. I am one and im getting the mount last or 2nd last as the other co-gm is also passing on it til the end.

[Soluna]

snip

I think that joining from Imonar is as much effort put in as the rest of the raiders. In case you haven't raided Antorus Mythic, the first 5 bosses are a joke, and Imonar is where things start getting anywhere near remotely difficult. I've been in every run ever since I joined, and I've done my job near perfect. I still haven't received any complaints or asked to fix something due to making only tiny mistakes that don't even kill me.

Therefore, along with argus wipes, I will have done just as much to kill him, and therefore deserve it the same as their other raiders. I agree that GM/RL put more effort, but not the rest of the raiders. If they want to prevent people from taking the mount and running, they can just threaten to kick people who take mount and go on a break, or give a bad reputation to leavers in their new guilds. I am pretty sure no one wants people like these in their guilds, and even if they accept one, you can be sure they will never allow him to get the mount.

[Sevyvia]

I think that joining from Imonar is as much effort put in as the rest of the raiders. In case you haven't raided Antorus Mythic, the first 5 bosses are a joke, and Imonar is where things start getting anywhere near remotely difficult. I've been in every run ever since I joined, and I've done my job near perfect. I still haven't received any complaints or asked to fix something due to making only tiny mistakes that don't even kill me.

Therefore, along with argus wipes, I will have done just as much to kill him, and therefore deserve it the same as their other raiders. I agree that GM/RL put more effort, but not the rest of the raiders. If they want to prevent people from taking the mount and running, they can just threaten to kick people who take mount and go on a break, or give a bad reputation to leavers in their new guilds. I am pretty sure no one wants people like these in their guilds, and even if they accept one, you can be sure they will never allow him to get the mount.

If your reference frame is purely yours, then sure, you've done as much as anyone else. But the guild you raid with existed before you joined them, and it was their prior existence and the people enabling it that got them to the point where you joined, and from then on you also have a part in the achievement. Seeing this, and then continuing to say that you have as much right to things as anyone else is at best an incredibly isolated perspective, and at worst, just plain selfish.

[Deleted]

some guilds are legitimately destined to extinct.

the argument of contribution is just plain nonsense, cuz guild administration just requires social play. the very only one who has a lot more contribution to invest is the raidlead. and a smart raidlead doesnt demand any other reward than the kill. but a smart guild may grant him the first loot as a neat thx...

[Alphatorg]

some guilds are legitimately destined to extinct.

the argument of contribution is just plain nonsense, cuz guild administration just requires social play. the very only one who has a lot more contribution to invest is the raidlead. and a smart raidlead doesnt demand any other reward than the kill. but a smart guild may grant him the first loot as a neat thx...

Maybe if you are a heroic raider.

[The One Percent]

Sounds like they already plan on "taking a break" once they get their mounts.

[Deleted]

Maybe if you are a heroic raider.

? every raider is supposed to check his logs. if there r continuing issues logs r analyzed together (cuz these issue needs quality discussions (based on factual, not emotional analysis), hm?). thats also social play - to care about ur raids issues is not an exclusive management job, but a common and mutual obligation?

social quality is maybe the most important criteria of teamwork:
a good team works like a patchwork family. the members like each other, meaning they have a personal interest (established via emotional bond) in their co-members well-being and therefore invest at their personal maximum to reach mutual goals.

i never get into economical issues (/debates) in my relationships. not because iam wealthy, but given the compatibility of partners (habitus, see Bourdieu for further explanation) its usual not a pure economical, but a psychological, aka emotional issue, that is just channeled destructively. sometimes she feels neglected (by collegues) and/or project it onto me, but it was also my mistake to not have taken notice before her "hypercompensation" in a conflict, hm? so i ll be there, listening, analysing and hugging, cuz i dont want an economic, but a social quality relation (not exclusive to partnership).
handle a guild like a family, and feel welcomed at home!

/edit: a guild is not a Junta, not even an enterprise.

[Cariboulou]

Maybe if you are a heroic raider.

It's true for mythic guilds too, our officers and GM don't really do anything different than the rest of us except making a calendar invite for raids and loot council.

[Alphatorg]

It's true for mythic guilds too, our officers and GM don't really do anything different than the rest of us except making a calendar invite for raids and loot council.

Oh really? So your guild doesn't do recruitment? Doesn't work on tactics? Doesn't evaluate and replace members? Doesn't do sells? Doesn't have conflicts and drama that you need to step on before it becomes a real issue?

? every raider is supposed to check his logs. if there r continuing issues logs r analyzed together (cuz these issue needs quality discussions (based on factual, not emotional analysis), hm?). thats also social play - to care about ur raids issues is not an exclusive management job, but a common and mutual obligation?

social quality is maybe the most important criteria of teamwork:
a good team works like a patchwork family. the members like each other, meaning they have a personal interest (established via emotional bond) in their co-members well-being and therefore invest at their personal maximum to reach mutual goals.

i never get into economical issues (/debates) in my relationships. not because iam wealthy, but given the compatibility of partners (habitus, see Bourdieu for further explanation) its usual not a pure economical, but a psychological, aka emotional issue, that is just channeled destructively. sometimes she feels neglected (by collegues) and/or project it onto me, but it was also my mistake to not have taken notice before her "hypercompensation" in a conflict, hm? so i ll be there, listening, analysing and hugging, cuz i dont want an economic, but a social quality relation (not exclusive to partnership).
handle a guild like a family, and feel welcomed at home!

/edit: a guild is not a Junta, not even an enterprise.

Yeah, I've heard of such guilds existing in fairylandistan. In the real world however you don't sustain a roster of 25-30 ambitious people through personal responsibility and the power of love.

[Meeni]

For a bunch of tiers now that included mounts as the final reward we did the following: anyone that was present on the first kill or had a very large number of the wipes on the last boss is eligible for the mount rolls. Untill all people that were present get it the rest arent allowed to roll for it, this includes officers/raiders/trials. This is honestly the policy I expect from any guild I would join, anything else is just unfair towards the people that put all their time into progressing alongside each other.

[Alphatorg]

For a bunch of tiers now that included mounts as the final reward we did the following: anyone that was present on the first kill or had a very large number of the wipes on the last boss is eligible for the mount rolls. Untill all people that were present get it the rest arent allowed to roll for it, this includes officers/raiders/trials. This is honestly the policy I expect from any guild I would join, anything else is just unfair towards the people that put all their time into progressing alongside each other.

Why is it unfair if the people who put in a couple (or even more) of extra hours per week to ensure that the guild can actually raid (let alone kill stuff) get vanity items such as mounts first as a small token of appreciation for their effort?

[Castrum]

Typical shithead elitist guild. I would bail. They won't ever waste their time getting the mount for regular raiders.

[Deleted]

Im a raid leader of a mythic raiding guild. Though we are no anywhere near killing argus (still on Kin Goroath) I have already decided how I would deal with that. All raiders can roll equally (excluding trials) for the mount. As all raiders have put in the effort for the kill.

I exclude trials as they are still that, trials. They have no committed the time to clearing the raid with the rest of the team. Equally I doubt we would actually have any trails on an argus kill. If a trial joined at argus progression they would likely either have passed/failed the trial before we get the kill.

Also, I wouldnt ask my raiders to commit after the kill on argus. Hopefully enough would still want to play to continue raiding but I understand the burnout mythic raiding can take on people

[Jyggalag]

Why is it unfair if the people who put in a couple (or even more) of extra hours per week to ensure that the guild can actually raid (let alone kill stuff) get vanity items such as mounts first as a small token of appreciation for their effort?

Been a firm believer since day 1 that anyone who participates in a boss kill such as this is just as entitled to the reward as the next person. A team of 20 players all performing optimally after hours of progress is required - why should 1 or several individuals have any more right than you? Because they organized the raid group or tactics? kappa copied method you mean. Big deal. If they hadn't, some other guild would have done those things, and if you're good enough to kill the boss with that guild you're good enough to kill the boss in another guild at the same level.
Say your guild has GM, Officer, Raider/Core, Member, Trial ranks. Anything above Trial should be eligible IMO.

I might be the most skilled member in your raid team, but I CBA leading a guild or raid leading. I could show up every night 100% attendance, the least mistakes and pump out the best numbers you've seen. Why should the GM and/or officers get dibs on the most exclusive reward at the very end of every long and difficult tier, while I have to compete with ~15 others on a raid roll?

- - - Updated - - -

Im a raid leader of a mythic raiding guild. Though we are no anywhere near killing argus (still on Kin Goroath) I have already decided how I would deal with that. All raiders can roll equally (excluding trials) for the mount. As all raiders have put in the effort for the kill.

I exclude trials as they are still that, trials. They have no committed the time to clearing the raid with the rest of the team. Equally I doubt we would actually have any trails on an argus kill. If a trial joined at argus progression they would likely either have passed/failed the trial before we get the kill.

Also, I wouldnt ask my raiders to commit after the kill on argus. Hopefully enough would still want to play to continue raiding but I understand the burnout mythic raiding can take on people

This guy gets it. 10/10 would join your guild

[Xykotic]

Have you discussed this with them? Personally I wouldn't care for the mount itself, but the execution is crap either way. Forcing people to stay and farm mounts for the management branch of the guild is a dick move.

If you've got the means and capacity I recommend voicing the complaint on voice chat during a raid at a planned moment. If you can get people vocally supporting you in that context it might allow you to push the leaders to comply with the overall raids desire and not their own greed. They can change their tone or they can remake a mythic guild, their call.

[Cariboulou]

Oh really? So your guild doesn't do recruitment? Doesn't work on tactics? Doesn't evaluate and replace members? Doesn't do sells? Doesn't have conflicts and drama that you need to step on before it becomes a real issue?

All of us with mythic rank recruit. We go through tactics together and evaluate logs ourselves. If someone sees a mistake or something that's done in a bad way we take it up with the person in question. Conflicts and drama have so far never escalated to the point where we need to have mommy and daddy solve it. You know, like regular, functioning adults.

[Gaidax]

We raidroll the thing. It hardly matters because by the time BfA is out we'll be swimming in these shit mounts anyway and it's not like a guild will suddenly evaporate tomorrow.

As for the case in question - it is simply the casual officer corruption, but if the "oh we suddenly all burned out" case for leadership will not happen, then it's fine IMO, simply because you will be rekilling this shit every week until frikkin' socials will have that mount.

Overall, dumping the guild and looking for another one does not ensure you will get any better situation there.

[Alphatorg]

Been a firm believer since day 1 that anyone who participates in a boss kill such as this is just as entitled to the reward as the next person. A team of 20 players all performing optimally after hours of progress is required - why should 1 or several individuals have any more right than you? Because they organized the raid group or tactics? kappa copied method you mean. Big deal. If they hadn't, some other guild would have done those things, and if you're good enough to kill the boss with that guild you're good enough to kill the boss in another guild at the same level.
Say your guild has GM, Officer, Raider/Core, Member, Trial ranks. Anything above Trial should be eligible IMO.

I might be the most skilled member in your raid team, but I CBA leading a guild or raid leading. I could show up every night 100% attendance, the least mistakes and pump out the best numbers you've seen. Why should the GM and/or officers get dibs on the most exclusive reward at the very end of every long and difficult tier, while I have to compete with ~15 others on a raid roll?

That's a view on guild leadership that's about as stupid/ignorant as saying "mythic raiding is just pressing 3 buttons".

All of us with mythic rank recruit. We go through tactics together and evaluate logs ourselves. If someone sees a mistake or something that's done in a bad way we take it up with the person in question. Conflicts and drama have so far never escalated to the point where we need to have mommy and daddy solve it. You know, like regular, functioning adults.

I'm curious about this. Do they officers flat out tell their raiders to look for class/spec x because the personnel on that slot needs replacing?

[MisterBigglez]

Overall, dumping the guild and looking for another one does not ensure you will get any better situation there.

You wouldn't stay in a guild if you were not happy with it. Thinking that you may not find a better guild so you madaswell just stay and be unhappy seems a bit stupid.