[SPOILERS]: Saurfang Stockades Dialogue

[mickybrighteyes]

I actually do not remember this Sylvanas's vision thing at all.

Me neither. But I do remember it being laid out as Sylvanas not wanting to waste time and troops fighting on foot when they could secure objectives AND reduce their own casualties. Garrosh was pushing for victory in his own idea of what was right... which seemed to basically be throwing bodies until you came out on top and because he was using Forsaken in Gilneas instead of troops he seemed to favor it came across as pushing Forsaken into a corner instead of trying to secure objectives. Sylvanas also has this running theme of NOT trusting anyone. So maybe 'vision' isn't the best word but rather her 'view' of events.

[Aucald]

I actually do not remember this Sylvanas's vision thing at all.

It's a vision Sylvanas is given in the short story "Edge of Night," where the Forsaken had been used and abused by Garrosh's leadership after Sylvanas' successful suicide at Icecrown Citadel. Basically Garrosh's use of the Forsaken as shock troops in Gilneas had winnowed their forces down to a level where they were unable to defend themselves against their enemies in the Eastern Kingdoms. The Alliance takes Andorhal and unites with surge of troops from elsewhere to decimate a poorly-defended Bulwark and arrows inward to the Undercity itself.

From "Edge of Night":

The Forsaken surged again, weapons spattered with blood and awash in rainwater. The figures who fought were gray in the mist, their cries somehow silent echoes as they were hacked apart. By now, even the defenders were reeling. They had killed so many: could anything be left?
The first wave of orcs caught the Gilneans by surprise. Horde forces rushed forward over a carpet of corpses, lust for victory in their eyes and throats. Everything was silent now. And then it was gone.

In its place stood the Bulwark, the half-finished fortifications that lined Lordaeron's border with what had become known as the Plaguelands. Master Apothecary Lydon was there, his left arm missing and an enormous gash across his face. He spoke urgently to his people, but no sound came out. He was orchestrating a last-minute defense at the Bulwark, but had little to work with. The heart of the Forsaken army had been sacrificed at Gilneas.

What little remained faced off against an organized force of humans and dwarves marching west, fresh from its victory at Andorhal. The ragged force that remained at the Bulwark had little hope of victory. The rest of the Horde was nowhere in sight.

This isn't real, Sylvanas realized, suddenly aware of her own consciousness observing these ghostly events as they unfolded. She was dead: she could feel it, but her spirit was being held in limbo. What is this?

The last thing she remembered was falling to her demise. These visions—they were like memories of events that hadn't yet happened. Where did they come from? Where was she now?
The capital was suddenly under siege. King Wrynn stood beyond the burning remains of the zeppelin tower, drawing diagrams of the Undercity for his generals. He had stormed the city before; he was confident of victory.

Within the city walls, bonfires raged. Sylvanas seethed; the Alliance was already burning the corpses. No. Wait. She tried to make sense out of the clouded vision. The few Forsaken who remain are throwing themselves into the bonfires, she realized, rather than facing their executioners.

"This isn't real!" Sylvanas announced, her voice echoing in her head and sounding as it had when she had been alive. Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns. The Forsaken leadership had been gutted. That was what these visions showed.

[Killeyedascope]

Bolvar, Malfurion to Neutrality, Rhonin to Neutrality, Khadgar to Neutrality, Tirion to Neutrality, Velen being neutral since introduction, Magni to neutrality.

I love how Horde Fanboys ignore how Alliance factions and heroes always gets stripped away from us so that the Horde can enjoy them.

But we don't enjoy them. No one I know who plays Horde, and nothing I've read on these forums and others would indicate that Horde players enjoy the characters you mentioned going neutral. Nobody has ever bragged that the horde "took the alliance's heroes from you to share with us". Typing that out and looking at it, it's even more delusional than it sounds. You can apply that same reasoning to the Horde as well. Thrall was lost to Neutrality. Garrosh was lost to EVIL RAID BOSS/HITLER. Cairne was lost to *dies offscreen*. Vol'jin was completely irrelevant for most of WoW, had one shining moment that required ORC HITLER to be a thing for him to do anything, and then he died to a random demon. Lor'themar who? Gallywix what? It looks like Sylvanas is ORC HITLER 2.0 now, with Saurfang being Vol'jin 2.0. Groan.

Horde players want well written HORDE characters that act like they care about THE HORDE, and emphasize and epitomize their race/people's cultures, morals, and traditions while having a character arc and flaws that make them compelling characters to observe.

Alliance had/have Varian, Anduin, Jaina, Genn that fall into this category. They care about their people, the Alliance at large, and emphasize those themes, but have their flaws. The writers make the waters so muddy with Horde characters being evil or fighting against themselves, all while ignoring any compelling themes. Why can't we learn about Orc honor without Saurfang having it out for Sylvanas - like we did when Garrosh killed that dude who bombed the village. That was good writing, and then they made him evil, invalidating all of the lessons he learned and his character arc.

I don't enjoy Rhonin for being neutral/"stolen" from the Alliance. I enjoy Varian because he was a badass who protected his kingdom/people, would go to war with the Horde in a second to protect the Alliance, but also realizes the cost of war of doing so and understands the Horde can be honorable and a good ally at times, and while I wish it weren't so, dies a hero's death. This is more of the writing needed across the board and it's absurd that people can't understand that both sides have won and lost to bad writing and it's always comparable; it's abstract, apples and oranges wins/losses. We all pay a subscription fee and buy expansions to be provided with good content, including story, setting and characters and for a disappointing minority of us, it doesn't go any further beyond just getting the product we want. The faction war should only be something that happens in game in an RP setting, not in adults posting back and forth on the forums for hours.

[Combatbutler]

And here is another hint of a blatant recycling of MoP storyline, I had hoped of something more interesting, this might all end up quite disappointing.

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I understand Saurfang being angry at Sylvanas for what she said when he was captured by the Alliance - but his sudden heel-face turn on the Horde doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Even if he now believes Sylvanas to be a dishonorable leader I would think he would want to safeguard the Orcs from her and work from within to oppose or at least mitigate her worst impulses. Perhaps Saurfang is still sorting out his priorities and how to proceed in light of what happened at Lordaeron, or perhaps this is only a rough draft of this aspect of the plot and subject to further iteration.

Considering his extreme focus on honor it really isn't that far fetched to be honest. He will return, once Sylvanas is gone, but I really hope he does not become warchief with this kind of attitude.

[Aucald]

Considering his extreme focus on honor it really isn't that far fetched to be honest. He will return, once Sylvanas is gone, but I really hope he does not become warchief with this kind of attitude.

I'm unsure if it's an extreme focus on honor or more anger at Sylvanas for daring to raise the subject of his son in such a manner (and as an implicit threat). Honor might just be a smokescreen behind which he's rationalizing his own disgust and rage with Sylvanas personally. I suppose we'll see, though.

[Verdugo]

It's a vision Sylvanas is given in the short story "Edge of Night," where the Forsaken had been used and abused by Garrosh's leadership after Sylvanas' successful suicide at Icecrown Citadel. Basically Garrosh's use of the Forsaken as shock troops in Gilneas had winnowed their forces down to a level where they were unable to defend themselves against their enemies in the Eastern Kingdoms. The Alliance takes Andorhal and unites with surge of troops from elsewhere to decimate a poorly-defended Bulwark and arrows inward to the Undercity itself.

From "Edge of Night":

Is that short story even canon now that chronicles contradict it?

[Combatbutler]

I'm unsure if it's an extreme focus on honor or more anger at Sylvanas for daring to raise the subject of his son in such a manner (and as an implicit threat). Honor might just be a smokescreen behind which he's rationalizing his own disgust and rage with Sylvanas personally. I suppose we'll see, though.

The very way it is worded he made the choice based on her actions, then there are the little snippets hinted in the new book of him keeping an eye on her. He rebelled against Garrosh before and Sylvanas is easily on his level, what he tries here right now is opening our eyes, so that we do not follow Sylvanas as blindly as Nazgrim once followed Garrosh. It is another throwback to MoP.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Varok_Saur...e_of_Orgrimmar
Tell me, how goes the battle up above? What of Nazgrim? Speak to me!
Ah, Nazgrim. A great leader and a fine warrior. He valued his oath to the Warchief more than his life.
I tried to tell him... to tell him that Hellscream betrayed us, cast aside a Warchief's responsibility to his own people. But Nazgrim... too loyal... too proud.

[Aucald]

Is that short story even canon now that chronicles contradict it?

I wasn't aware that any of the "Chronicle" volumes did contradict it - in what manner is it being contradicted?

[Boraal]

Horde infighting again.

Literally MoP 2.0. getting veeeeery close to skipping it entirely.

MoP was one of the best experiences overall I've ever had in this game. I'm all for it.

[Verdugo]

I wasn't aware that any of the "Chronicle" volumes did contradict it - in what manner is it being contradicted?

Wasnt it worded in the preview that Sylvanas convinced Garrosh to go after Gilneas? Something that would be impossible if Edge of Night was canon?

[Dudas]

Considering his extreme focus on honor it really isn't that far fetched to be honest. He will return, once Sylvanas is gone, but I really hope he does not become warchief with this kind of attitude.

He is the leader of the ORCS. Even if you hate Sylvanas and her view of the Horde or tactics or whatever. You abandon the orcs as their leader not just the Horde. You are not just random orc of the day that goes back to barrens and ignores the warcall cause I don't like how war has evolved in the last 14 years. Last I saw him he was going in ICC on a battleship and he was ordering us to kill humans on their battleship and ordering us to fire our cannons and kill dwarven riflemen and destroy their battleship cause they got in the way. But now we must fight with suicidal charges and axes cause honor.

[Aucald]

The very way it is worded he made the choice based on her actions, then there are the little snippets hinted in the new book of him keeping an eye on her. He rebelled against Garrosh before and Sylvanas is easily on his level, what he tries here right now is opening our eyes, so that we do not follow Sylvanas as blindly as Nazgrim once followed Garrosh. It is another throwback to MoP.

Not sure if that really changes anything - his anger would still based on her words/actions, and he no doubt sees little honor in her conduct at Lordaeron (rightly or wrongly). He is also alone in his rebellion to Sylvanas, insofar as we know - whereas Saurfang was among many who rebelled against Garrosh.

[Friendlyimmolation]

People have to remember that the dialogue isn’t final until it’s final . Not that I expect it to change.

Nothing so far leads me to think SoO 2.0 . Sylvanas hasn’t killed any other Horde leaders or tried to have them assasinated. Saurfang can grumble about honor, but Sylvanas’ tactics aren’t hurting the Horde.

[Combatbutler]

He is the leader of the ORCS. Even if you hate Sylvanas and her view of the Horde or tactics or whatever. You abandon the orcs as their leader not just the Horde. You are not just random orc of the day that goes back to barrens and ignores the warcall cause I don't like how war has evolved in the last 14 years. Last I saw him he was going in ICC on a battleship and he was killing humans on their battleship and ordering us to fire our cannons and kill dwarves and destroy their battleship cause they got in the way. But now we must fight with suicidal charges and axes cause honor.

He did the exact same thing in MoP, yet this time there is no horde rebellion to help him go along, the way it seems the Horde under sylvanas is not his horde and he is not willing to fight for it, quite the opposite, like with Garrosh he will most likely bring it down and restore a horde he believes in.

[Aucald]

Wasnt it worded in the preview that Sylvanas convinced Garrosh to go after Gilneas? Something that would be impossible if Edge of Night was canon?

Not necessarily - she could've done that before she left for Icecrown, or after she returned. I don't know if that's necessarily a contradiction inasmuch as it is a piece of new information (e.g. she had an interest in Gilneas and it wasn't just a unilateral move on Garrosh's part). This doesn't imply to me that the events of "Edge of Night" didn't occur.

[Combatbutler]

People have to remember that the dialogue isn’t final until it’s final . Not that I expect it to change.

Nothing so far leads me to think SoO 2.0 . Sylvanas hasn’t killed any other Horde leaders or tried to have them assasinated. Saurfang can grumble about honor, but Sylvanas’ tactics aren’t hurting the Horde.

It is just so many little details starting to add up though, a small retcon here a dubious dialogue option there, it isn't certain for sure, but I see the story moving in that direction.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

I hope I'm not the only one thinking this, but I absolutely LOVE the direction the lore has taken. It feels more... mature.

[Qualia]

Wasnt it worded in the preview that Sylvanas convinced Garrosh to go after Gilneas? Something that would be impossible if Edge of Night was canon?

No, it was ambiguously worded. It didn't say that Sylvanas convinced Garrosh to go after Gilneas, just that both Garrosh wanted Gilneas, and Sylvanas shared that opinion. She then convinced Garrosh to let her to lead the Horde to ravage Gilneas.

In regards to Edge of Night, I'm sure it's still canon. The scene we were talking about were mentioned in Chronicle 3 too (Sylvanas suiciding, getting a glimpse of her afterlife and a vision of how the Forsaken would be wasted by Garrosh, the Val'kyr brought her back and bound themselves to her in exchange to escape the Lich King's control. It even added a bit that Bolvar was salty not happy about it as well and considered it a lesson to keep others from misuing the Scourge's power.

[Combatbutler]

Not sure if that really changes anything - his anger would still based on her words/actions, and he no doubt sees little honor in her conduct at Lordaeron (rightly or wrongly). He is also alone in his rebellion to Sylvanas, insofar as we know - whereas Saurfang was among many who rebelled against Garrosh.

He stands by his personal honor, just as he rebelled against Garrosh due to his personal views branding Garrosh as the one that betrayed the horde, Sylanas is no different, the only difference here is that he can't join a rebellion, because it does not exist and he will not serve under Sylvanas, because her horde is not his horde.

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Not necessarily - she could've done that before she left for Icecrown, or after she returned. I don't know if that's necessarily a contradiction inasmuch as it is a piece of new information (e.g. she had an interest in Gilneas and it wasn't just a unilateral move on Garrosh's part). This doesn't imply to me that the events of "Edge of Night" didn't occur.

Which would be pointless, since she went to Icecrown with the very intention to kill herself, so why would she make invasion plans prior, since at that point her life-goal had been achieved.

[Dudas]

He did the exact same thing in MoP, yet this time there is no horde rebellion to help him go along, the way it seems the Horde under sylvanas is not his horde and he is not willing to fight for it, quite the opposite, like with Garrosh he will most likely bring it down and restore a horde he believes in.

He was not their leader that's the difference. Again orcs are part of horde. Orcs said you are their leader and you will represent them. You quit the Horde, you abandon the orcs that have chosen you to guide them also. The honorable Saurfang just gave up without a fight