What did Vol'jin see in Sylvanas, when he chose her to lead the Horde?

[RangerDaz]

So, many people are questioning Sylvanas methods. It seems that even that another important horde character is also questioning her (not saying name ... because... spoilers, i guess)


I think it is time for us to understand why Vol'jin chose her. What did he see in her, that made him believe she was the most fit leader for the Horde?
Why not Saurfang, Thrall, Lor'themar Theron or Baine?

I really hope they do not chose the "Garrosh" 2.0 plot for her. There must be something important behind Vol'jin's choice, something he saw that made her special. If the Loa chose her and not the others, what could this be? Why her?


Actually... I think none of us has understood Helya's and Sylvanas arrangement as well. I know what Sylvanas wanted, but what did she give in exchange to Helya? Why did Helya let her escape and at the same time keep her heroes (horde players) imprisoned in Hellheim in the Stormheim main storyline? Why did Sylvanas approve Horde players to slay Helya, after her treaty with Helya? Why didn't Odin tell Horde Warriors to chose between him or Sylvanas, after all she has done with Helya and Eyir, the Val'kyr Goddess?

Did Vol'jin's Loa know Sylvanas would do an agreement with Helya? Is her agreement also part of the vision Vol'jin saw?
There are so many questions... and lore inconsistencies that I see in Sylvanas behavior, that I still don't understand well her role in what Blizzard is preparing for her. I just hope they simply won't turn her pure evil, because that would destroy so many interesting plot sidestories... and Vol'jin's vision of the salvation of the horde as well.





I also wrote in another thread in the Lore section this:

My opinion is that Warcraft needs a "Cercei" character, a strong and ruthless female leader with very few empathy, just like Sylvanas.
I think it is good for "chess board game", which is how wow characters position themselves.

Having said that, it is also good for the story that Sylvanas doesn't get completely demonized.
In her point of view, for her survival and for the survival of the ones below her, she must truly believe her actions are justified.
Just like the demon hunters say they have sacrificed everything for a goal, so probably has she.

Her goal, her methods, her inner conflicts should be shown to the public so we can try to understand why she is doing what she does. and maybe we might even agree with some of her tough decisions... or not. We probably would do things another way, but that is how she functions and thinks. Bringing consistency to her character and to her actions will only give her strength, credibility and make people understand why Blizzard chose her to lead the Horde, and not make her a new "Garrosh".

If Blizzard goes on the route of making her pure evil, this will destroy her character and make her uninteresting, just the way Garrosh ended (he started with very promissing plot stories and conflicts and ended like a "Fuhrer"), another final raid boss.

[Jack Black]

Pair of nice tits.

On serious note making Sylvanas Warchief was 100% for fun service.

PS When people stop comparing everything with GoT? Its mediocore TV Show.

[Evangeliste]

Personally, I think it's a set up by powers we don't know fully. Yet.

Vol'jin said that:
"The Loa spirits have said, death will claim me soon".
And.
"The spirits have granted me clarity. A vision, they whisper a name. Many will not understand, but you must step out of the shadows and lead. You must be Warchief."

Basically the Loa spirits said to pick Sylvanas. They can shape things to have that form of clarity really, they could have easily bent the vision so it seems obvious who to choose or, they can easily give Vol'jin an ultimatum like Bwonsamdi did at the Echo Isles to remove Zaladane. And when Bwonsamdi gave aid, it was at the cost where Vol'jin had to offer more souls to the Loa for the sake of giving aid. Might sound familiar because...

To further this:

After Garrosh Hellscream's assassins crippled Vol'jin, the troll found that his shadow hunter powers were being withheld by the loa. In his dreams, Bwonsamdi contacted Vol'jin and told him that his injuries, self doubt, and conflicting loyalty toward the Horde has made the loa forsake him. Bwonsamdi showed him various visions, including a future of Vol'jin using the Horde to destroy the Alliance, and turning the Horde into an empire that would rival even the ancient troll civilizations. The Death Loa wished Vol'jin would use his influence to create as much strife and war as possible, for that would mean more souls would be sent to the other side on his behalf. Vol'jin refused to go down the path of the Zandalari conquerors, believing it was not the Darkspear 'way'. Vol'jin eventually proved his conviction and reaffirmed his identity, regaining both Bwonsamdi's respect and his powers.

Bwonsamdi received the souls Vol'jin sent from the battles between the Shado-Pan and the Thunder King's forces with great satisfaction. At the end of the war, Vol'jin's companion Tyrathan Khort was near death. Vol'jin pleaded with Bwonsamdi to spare Tyrathan. The loa complied, knowing he would have his soul now or later, it did not matter.

Sounds to me that if the Loa of Death couldn't have Vol'jin, Bwonsamdi manipulated the situation so Vol'jin selected the one other favourable warmonger going. Oh lookie here. Sylvanas is a PRIME candidate.

What's even more mindbending is that Bwonsamdi got a model update AND appears in Battle for Azeroth, which magically is filled with Zandalari trolls! And is again asked for help.

For proof:

Have a gander. It can be overlooked but that small verbal detail is too iffy for me to miss.

[Lyssander]

Greatness!

[Kwento]

When you look at it from a lore standpoint, there are several reasons.
First, yes, Loa told Vol’jin to pick Sylvanas. That’s basically how our wasted Warchief explained his decision. The Loa can have their ulterior motives. Starting from possibly just picking one of the random leaders, to elaborate plan to help troll-kind.
Second, Vol’jin never seemed to have blindly followed the Loa’s decisions. If he disagreed, he convinced the Loa that his idea would benefit them more, changing their minds. So I think that to write it off as just “His gods said so” is false.

I absolutely hate Sylvanas and forsaken being in the Horde, so it is hard for me to say what is so special about her. But she is considered to be a good strategist and leader. I doubt that’s the only reasons he picked her, because the same can be said about Saurfang. Partially even Baine. And both of them are living beings that aren’t a part of a race of creatures that were made to destroy life itself.

[FriendOrTraitor]

I'm going to maintain that some nefarious force interfered with the vision Vol'jin received. At first I thought it was Kil'Jaeden trying to deepen the divide between Alliance and Horde and now I think it was N'zoth! I refuse to believe Vol'jin/spirits actually thought it was a good idea.

[Lyssander]

There are plenty of loa, who would love Sylvanas, bloodthirst isnt exclusive to Hakkar.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure Vol'Jin can say no to a Loa. I mean Zalazane tried, and look how well it ended for them.
By the by isn't it funny that it is Sylvanas who brings the Zandalari to the Horde in a storyline that involves killing corrupted Loa and helping still sane ones? It might not be good hor Azeroth, or the Horde as a whole or even the trolls. But it might be good for the Loa.

Extra thicc tinfoil hat edition:

Remember how some of the Loa are corrupted by Zul and co? What if the Loa that talked to Vol'Jin were already under the influence of Big Z? It is not impossible. And who is the one pulling the strings of Zul?

Queen Azshara.

[Deleted]

He was poisoned by Fel, who says that there wasn't some sort of manipulation of his thoughts by some dark entity disguised as the Loa?

Detheroc spent some time in Legion manipulating the thoughts of the Alliance in order to pit them against the Horde. Vol'jin picking Sylvanas was most likely caused by someone who knew just how much chaos would come by electing Sylvanas.

I find no other explanation because the Loa spirits Vol'jin normally contacted with, specially Bwonsamdi, despiese seeing the dead in the hands of manipulative mortal agents. That same motivation made him agree to destroy Zalazane. He wouldn't stand for Sylvanas taking up mantle of Warchief, nor would he ever care that much on Horde politics to be honest, to demand that sort of thing.

There's also Varimathras' quote in Antorus that makes it most suspicious:

"Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did."

[Aucald]

I'm hoping the pre-release novel "Before the Storm" reveals exactly that.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

You can literally hear them at 1:04 whisper "Sylvanas" multiple times. They meant her indeed. There's no one pulling any strings either.

[Dudas]

There's also Varimathras' quote in Antorus that makes it most suspicious:

"Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did."

The vindictive sisters stripped away both flesh and sanity, leaving only a singular desire to inflict suffering upon the mortals who cost him everything. Plus dreadlords are not known for telling the truth...

"So, she found me at last. Sent her underlings to finish the job." Pretty much I would interpret this as pure delusions since he seems to think that Sylvanas has been searching for him or something...

[owbu]

If they want to turn the horde evil thats fine. Voljin was dying and not seeing clearly/was tricked. He chose a powerhungry evil "Cersei" Silvanas as Warchief. Now the purges and the wars start. Could be an interesting story.
They could also go with something else where Voljin did actually know something we dont and Silvanas, even though she is ruthless and has done terrible things in the past, slowly gets redeemed. Not to the point where she is Anduin, just to the point that you could still make believable stories about Tauren druids or Bloodelf palas being a part of her Horde.

What they have to do though is commit to ONE story. You cant make Silvanas an evil psychopaths who cares for noone but the forsaken (or sometimes just plain noone?) in one szene and make her the patriotic hero type who is inspiring her followers in the next one. What that does is just copy Garrosh with all his clusterfuckyness. And the only option write yourself out of that mess is tentacles. Again.

[Arrashi]

He was poisoned by Fel, who says that there wasn't some sort of manipulation of his thoughts by some dark entity disguised as the Loa?

Detheroc spent some time in Legion manipulating the thoughts of the Alliance in order to pit them against the Horde. Vol'jin picking Sylvanas was most likely caused by someone who knew just how much chaos would come by electing Sylvanas.

I find no other explanation because the Loa spirits Vol'jin normally contacted with, specially Bwonsamdi, despiese seeing the dead in the hands of manipulative mortal agents. That same motivation made him agree to destroy Zalazane. He wouldn't stand for Sylvanas taking up mantle of Warchief, nor would he ever care that much on Horde politics to be honest, to demand that sort of thing.

There's also Varimathras' quote in Antorus that makes it most suspicious:

"Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did."

Because if legion was capable of pulling it off, they wouldnt be effortlessly defeated.

[Paraka]

Personally, I think it's a set up by powers we don't know fully. Yet.

Vol'jin said that:
"The Loa spirits have said, death will claim me soon".
And.
"The spirits have granted me clarity. A vision, they whisper a name. Many will not understand, but you must step out of the shadows and lead. You must be Warchief."

Basically the Loa spirits said to pick Sylvanas. They can shape things to have that form of clarity really, they could have easily bent the vision so it seems obvious who to choose or, they can easily give Vol'jin an ultimatum like Bwonsamdi did at the Echo Isles to remove Zaladane. And when Bwonsamdi gave aid, it was at the cost where Vol'jin had to offer more souls to the Loa for the sake of giving aid. Might sound familiar because...

To further this:



Sounds to me that if the Loa of Death couldn't have Vol'jin, Bwonsamdi manipulated the situation so Vol'jin selected the one other favourable warmonger going. Oh lookie here. Sylvanas is a PRIME candidate.

What's even more mindbending is that Bwonsamdi got a model update AND appears in Battle for Azeroth, which magically is filled with Zandalari trolls! And is again asked for help.

For proof:

Have a gander. It can be overlooked but that small verbal detail is too iffy for me to miss.

That is an excellent point. And with Thrall running about with his ashes in Zandalar only cements the idea Bwomsandi is behind this.

[Evangeliste]

He was poisoned by Fel, who says that there wasn't some sort of manipulation of his thoughts by some dark entity disguised as the Loa?

Detheroc spent some time in Legion manipulating the thoughts of the Alliance in order to pit them against the Horde. Vol'jin picking Sylvanas was most likely caused by someone who knew just how much chaos would come by electing Sylvanas.

I find no other explanation because the Loa spirits Vol'jin normally contacted with, specially Bwonsamdi, despiese seeing the dead in the hands of manipulative mortal agents. That same motivation made him agree to destroy Zalazane. He wouldn't stand for Sylvanas taking up mantle of Warchief, nor would he ever care that much on Horde politics to be honest, to demand that sort of thing.

There's also Varimathras' quote in Antorus that makes it most suspicious:

"Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did."

The ironic thing is, if that's the case for Bwonsamdi in the novel wouldn't have tried to encourage Vol'jin to actually war and create mass murder for souls by using the entirety of the Horde to create an Empire.

The Death Loa wished Vol'jin would use his influence to create as much strife and war as possible, for that would mean more souls would be sent to the other side on his behalf. Bwonsamdi showed him various visions, including a future of Vol'jin using the Horde to destroy the Alliance, and turning the Horde into an empire that would rival even the ancient troll civilizations. Vol'jin refused to go down the path of the Zandalari conquerors, believing it was not the Darkspear 'way'.

Do you think Sylvanas would have abstained if the agenda suited hers? Like more corpses to make more Forsaken? No way. She'd be in there waging war which basically she engages with the BfA trailer.

I think you're using personal judgement there, sorry because the fact is, this canon novel has disproved your notion that a Warchief has no place in Bwonsamdi's plan because the novel basically shows exactly that and with someone who is going to be loyal to the Loa. Bwonsamdi was going to use mortals against mortals to advance his interest in soul collection. The fact is Bwonsamdi collects mortal souls means he will take advance where he can. Having no interest is going against his nature, manipulating mortals to get more souls is perfect and something he's already plotted to do. And over Azeroth history, there has been so much war and discord he's been satisfied.

Fact is, Sylvanas who is quite capable and not frightened to war, and has little Val'kyr to continue the pro-creation of RForsaken (and probably half of why she's in Stormheim) helps Bwonsamdi. As Warchief she's also a massive "kill me" target. It's a win win for him in every manner.

As for Varimathras, I wouldn't trust a Dreadlord whose notorious for lying (in fact they all are). And failing. He's being tortured because he was a failure at lying ironically. He tried to lie to Sylvanas to crush the Forsaken from within and got found. His arse got handed to him for not crushing Sylvanas in Undercity and rallying both Horde and Alliance forces to remove him.

[Doffen]

For proof:

Have a gander. It can be overlooked but that small verbal detail is too iffy for me to miss.

Just bit off-topic, but that cinematic is one of the best they have made. The music, the dialogue, everything. Seen it too many times :>

On-topic: That explanation was really good. Something iffy is up for sure. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out.

[Deleted]

The ironic thing is, if that's the case for Bwonsamdi in the novel wouldn't have tried to encourage Vol'jin to actually war and create mass murder for souls by using the entirety of the Horde to create an Empire.

I think you're using personal judgment there but the fact is, this canon novel has disproved it because Bwonsamdi will use mortals to advance his interest in soul collection.

Fact is, Sylvanas who is quite capable and not frightened to war, and has little Val'kyr to continue the pro-creation of RForsaken (and probably half of why she's in Stormheim) helps Bwonsamdi. As Warchief she's also a massive "kill me" target. It's a win win for him in every manner.

Yes but that's the thing, Bwonsamdi wanted Vol'jin to be the agent of conquest in his name, because that would offer him a huge ammount of souls, and not just those of trolls. He has no control of souls that aren't killed in his name, and in that aspect, Sylvanas serves nothing to him for whoever she kills won't benefit him in any way.

[Dagoth Ur]

I hope "external evil power tricked Vol'jin" is not the case.

I find it much more intriguing if Loa gave Vol'jin some insight into Sylvanas' importance concerning something in BfA we're all unable to see yet.

[Evangeliste]

Yes but that's the thing, Bwonsamdi wanted Vol'jin to be the agent of conquest in his name, because that would offer him a huge ammount of souls, and not just those of trolls. He has no control of souls that aren't killed in his name, and in that aspect, Sylvanas serves nothing to him for whoever she kills won't benefit him in any way.

Sylvanas and Bwonsamdi both have dealings with the Shadowlands.

Sylvanas will create war and strife. That's evident with BfA. Dead Trolls and even other souls is more gain for the Loa. The Horde even go to the Zandalari Empire, who instigates going to there then? Not to mention where the Loa reappears.

And Bwonsamdi is not against taking non-Troll souls. Vol'jin tried that and Bwonsmadi told him to fuck off.