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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntardicus View Post
    Ah I haven't really been keeping up with all this stuff tbf. Not really liking the direction this is going then.
    The only time she wasn't portrayed as being completely insame so far was when she talks to the player character back in the silverpine quests and when she talks to Nathanos. Every other time she is the most unlikeably character, which pretty much mirrors retardosh .

    The only difference is that she has a noticeable crowd of people that like her, where the challenged orc was universally hated besides by some faction war wankers that still live in the 90's. Because of that I doubt they will simply kill her off, but then they didn't kill garry either until draenor.. they even wrote a whole book about not killing him ..

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntardicus View Post
    He could just like, you know, confront Sylvanas and make his concerns heard. She'd be foolish to disregard such a highly respected Orc. Of course given Blizzard are planting the seeds to turn her into a villain it probably doesn't matter either way.
    Well, he kinda did.

    He wanted to fight and die an "honourable" death, but Sylvanas had other plans: to save civilians and to minimise their loses as much as possible, even if it meant destroying and abandoning her own city. So she decided to use blight against the Alliance to slow them down and kill as many of them as possible along the way, Saurfang didn't like it and told her about that, she asked him what else they could do, he literally shrugged because he had no other plan, but to fight and die. So she told him to piss off w/ his "honourable" death.
    Last edited by ls-; 2018-03-15 at 08:03 PM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Almiria View Post
    I don't think it's a MoP 2.0, I think they are just going to make the Sylvanas/Genn battle endless, both of them are wrong at some points. They're the main reason PvP World Quests on legion were having place, I think it's just another endless battle like Humans Vs Orcs, if they get rid of Sylvanas they should do the same to Genn. However they said that Alliance Versus Horde on raids may be a thing again like on Icecrown Citade, so maybe something involving Sylvanas for the Alliance and the same thing with Genn for the Horde without a major winner. The Desolate Council however may became a raid boss or something if they got some evil plans.
    Before the datamined dialogue (I didn't read it very closely because I wanna keep a little mystery around it) seemed to place agents of the Undercity at Teladrassil, I read a really compelling forum post by someone with a wild idea for a twist reveal toward the end of BFA.

    His idea was, "What if it turns out that Genn burned down the tree, then framed the forsaken somehow?"

    The thought was that if he was tired of his people being the Nelves guests in their city, and having his own lands out of reach, then that would have allowed him to try and nudge the Alliance into getting his own city back in order, then he could have been the one offering refuge to the Nelves, getting back his own stuff and being the bigger person, so to speak.

    The poster was thinking that the ultimate truth could have come out when all the leaders were gathered in some conflict, maybe in an end cinematic after a raid--where Genn finally had to admit what hed done in front of them.

    That would have been wild...for real.
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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    You write Garrosh and honourable together. Lol.
    You underestimate the head canon some people have about beloved Garrosh, it's delusional .
    But compared to Sylvanas, Garrosh was more honourable I guess.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    You underestimate the head canon some people have about beloved Garrosh, it's delusional .
    But compared to Sylvanas, Garrosh was more honourable I guess.
    Stonetalon Garrosh was best Garrosh.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntardicus View Post
    Stonetalon Garrosh was best Garrosh.
    It was mistake. Blizzard said it not me.

  7. #147
    I honestly like this. Saurfang is a fricking old veteran, especially for an orc, probably only elves have seen more wars than him. He knows nothing really has changed, same old gets repeated without achieving anything.
    Seems like that to me.

  8. #148
    A lot of the elements of Battle for Azeroth are about returning to a previous theme in the franchise, I don't really think this is going to be any different. Night Elves lose Darnassus and become more dispersed. The Alliance reclaims Lordaeron and Stromgarde which is rebuilt. Kul'tiras and Gilneas are back on the field for the Alliance. Zandalar has been the sort of off-screen center for Troll culture since vanilla.

    What I'm saying is that I think Saurfang's storyline is the same deal. Sylvanas will not remain Warchief because the Horde isn't the Horde while she is Warchief, I don't think she'll die though. I think she'll return to leading the Forsaken in the shadows where she's comfortable and all the crap she pulls isn't put into the spotlight. Sylvanas functioned way better as a sort of rogue leader of the Horde that the Horde didn't have to own the actions of.

    The Horde had a particular theme that was really well crafted in WC3 and Vanilla WoW, it was a group of unwanted people that banded together to survive. You can try to twist it to say Sylvanas' Horde is the same thing but it really isn't. Her Horde exists to protect her and her alone. She'll happily use all the tools she had been forbidden to use in the past and will happily defile the corpses of her fallen allies and enemies toward that end.

    So what I think is going on here is that Saurfang has had a lot of time to think, and can't bring himself to align with Sylvanas' Horde any more. Maybe there's something he sees during the attack on Darkshore, or it's down to the Lordaeron scenario or something else. Something makes him walk away from everyone, and straight to Anduin.

    I think he'll ask Anduin to be released so that he can find Thrall. I think he'll go to Aggra who will tell him that Thrall has been gone for some time. His lost connection to the elements and his general powerlessness probably stems from self doubt over his past decisions. It was his decision that to appoint Garrosh lead to the downfall of the Horde over Cata and MoP. Everything that followed after that he would bear some responsibility for, like Cairne's death, Theramore and all that.

    What Garrosh told him right before he died I think poisoned Thrall against himself. I think the reason Vol'jin appointed Sylvanas was to show Thrall that he was still needed, as a way to get him to return to power. Vol'jin knew exactly what Sylvanas was like and chose her anyway. Vol'jin wanted Thrall to return to power in SoO but Thrall refused, so it's not a stretch to think he'd still want Thrall back.

    Thrall in the meantime I think has been trying to find himself with the Orcs of Draenor. He was denied an upbringing among his people and his parents which he has been free to pursue throughout Legion. Rise of the Horde begins every chapter with a journal entry from Thrall talking about different aspects of their past and culture, and this will help Thrall reconnect with that in a way nothing else can. He would spend time learning about his people, connecting with the elements in a clean way and witnessing the rites he was denied as a prisoner under Blackmoore. He originally connected with Grom Hellscream in Lord of the Clans, would make sense for him to reconnect with him here. Saurfang arrives to tell him all that has happened and to convince him to return.

    I think this because Thrall was listed as a main character at Blizzcon for Battle for Azeroth. He's been missing since the beginning of Legion where he was shown to be near powerless and kind of down on himself. He has nowhere to go in his character arc but up. This would also rescue Thrall from the shitbin that was Cataclysm, which is the last time he did anything meaningful in the plot. It would restore the old feeling of the Horde since Thrall is a heroic character and would allow Horde players to continue to feel as though they're heroes of their story. In a way it would strengthen the Horde because Thrall is the type of character who isn't afraid to defend his people, and he would do it for his people. He was fair to all Horde races and would protect all of them, including the now displaced Forsaken.

    This brings Thrall back in a way where he grows, it restores the legitimacy of the Horde as Thrall's Horde and brings in the AU Draenor Orcs who are now connected intimately to Thrall through his father Durotan and Grom.
    Last edited by Niroshi; 2018-03-15 at 09:25 PM.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by orgonutil View Post
    i feel sad, i dont want to lose Saurfang
    He very likely will go back to the Horde at some point once the Sylvanas problem is dealt with. The other option is that he will eventually die (he is pretty old at this point) while in exile. I would be very surprised if he decided to ally himself with the Alliance. He is however on okay terms with a couple of Alliance leaders since Wrath of the Lich King when he was allowed to carry his dead son by Varian, even saying that he would not forget their kindness. If any Orc would be allowed a place in the Alliance, Saurfang is at least not completely out of the question, although very, very unlikely to happen.
    Last edited by Frozen Death Knight; 2018-03-15 at 09:17 PM.

  10. #150
    He might get the honorable death he is seeking as he cleaves Sylvanas in two. Then again, Bwonsamdi might be waiting to get his hands on her, since she has cheated death so many times. Eh, I guess we will have to wait and see what the dwarves bring back from the data mines.
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  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Atethecat View Post
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    I sense some possible infighting within the Horde...
    Ya they have to setup her departure from the Horde so she can train the Dark Rangers for next expansion, it has been written in the stars for a while.
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  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by ThtOneGuy View Post
    Wait, isn't Saurfang being a grey/pragmatic character by sticking to his ideals?
    Nope a grey/pragmatic character tosses their personal ideals aside, if it is deemed necessary.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    You write Garrosh and honourable together. Lol.
    Wrath/Cata Garrosh, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    You underestimate the head canon some people have about beloved Garrosh, it's delusional .
    But compared to Sylvanas, Garrosh was more honourable I guess.
    None of this is headcanon:

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...osh-hellscream

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntardicus View Post
    Stonetalon Garrosh was best Garrosh.
    Pretty much. A true Warchief.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    Wrath/Cata Garrosh, yes.
    Wasn't Wrath Garrosh the one who was eager to fight the Alliance for reasons instead of focusing on the Scourge?
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Wasn't Wrath Garrosh the one who was eager to fight the Alliance for reasons instead of focusing on the Scourge?
    If you are talking about the rear assault at one of the gates in icecrown that was under the command of another orc. But in general yes, he was. And he learns from it. Perfect characters are dull, flawed character who become better and retain their personality are much more interesting. Check the link I used in the post you are quoting.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    If you are talking about the rear assault at one of the gates in icecrown that was under the command of another orc. But in general yes, he was. And he learns from it. Perfect characters are dull, flawed character who become better and retain their personality are much more interesting. Check the link I used in the post you are quoting.
    I had hope for Garrosh for a brief moment of time, but I saw the writing on the wall and knew that hope was a delusion. It was clear that Garrosh was being written in the style of a villain in most of his scenes, not as a rash character about to learn from his mistakes. His flaws were all flaws that a villain is typically given. Watching his attitude during WoTLK, and it was plain that he was written to be disliked. Hostile, insulting, and overly aggressive, and not in the cool way. During Cataclysm, or even before, Metzen directly stated that a story from his perspective would be boring because it'd just be "KILL KILL KILL".

    By Twilight Highlands, you see him as a blundering oaf who costs you valuable resources by throwing away his air support and getting the fleet attacked. He then impresses the Dragonmaw Clan for how he must be an excellent Warchief, "being able to lead a Horde of such varied races". While at the same time, you just witnessed an Orc abuse a Goblin for daring to speak up and voice legitimate concerns.

    This repeats the sense you get from WoTLK. Saurfang covered Garrosh's ass. Garrosh is getting credit for things he's not even responsible for, or worse, is actively in the process of ruining.

    There are people who compare Garrosh to Doomhammer or Grom. Those people don't know shit.

    Grom's thing was that he usually tried to be levelheaded, he tried to learn from his mistakes, and a lot of the time he failed. He's described as better able to control his bloodrage than most fel-corrupted Orcs at the time. He was a chill guy who sometimes reverted to a bloodthirsty monster. What's more, that was never portrayed as a good thing. It was literally his fatal flaw. That he always fell back, no matter how hard he tried. Garrosh being like him, even without the demon blood, paints Garrosh as someone who will eventually have to die unless he changes drastically and stays changed. There's a reason why Grom was redeemed in death. He ended things on a good note before he inevitably fucked up again.

    As for Doomhammer? Doomhammer was never a hyperaggressive rager. Doomhammer was mostly just just continuing a war he felt was necessary to continue for the sake of his people, without any particular rage or hatred.

    And half the stories featuring Garrosh kept portraying him as shortsighted and hyperaggressive to a fault. It kept happening and he never seemed to learn. When he began to smarten up, it was in the way a cartoon supervillain is smart. And he gets foiled in the end by Superhero Wolfman.

    Garrosh was, quite plainly, written to be a villain and written in that style. And Sylvanas is generally written as another flavor of villain, but also a villain. Not an antihero, like some might think. No, Sylvanas acts like Lex Luthor at a time when he's forced to team up with the Justice League for some larger purpose. Acting superficially polite and snide at the same time.

    At the end of the day, we need to stop putting supervillains in charge. Honestly, at this point I'd just take Thrall back for no other purpose than to keep everyone else off the throne.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    If you are talking about the rear assault at one of the gates in icecrown that was under the command of another orc. But in general yes, he was. And he learns from it. Perfect characters are dull, flawed character who become better and retain their personality are much more interesting. Check the link I used in the post you are quoting.
    Not really. I mean, as soon as you get to Borean Tundra he is talking about crushing the alliance.
    Saurfang even has to help save an operation.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Kael fought against the demons of outland and the scourge, he was never evil in TFT, arguably you could consider him on the wrong side when he attacked arthas under kiljaedins command, but that happened to be within his own scope of a just war. he was only turned into a villain in wow.
    So? That has nothing to do with him being part of the horde.

    He could have been a horde hero very easily
    Could have. But wasn't. Could have been an Alliance hero too. Or a neutral figure. Or something else entirely. Could have doesn't mean all that much.
    it would be like turning tyrande into a raid boss in wow and saying she was never a part of the alliance since she wasnt part of the human army in TFT.
    Well, if Tyrande had been a raid boss in vanilla WoW without ever having been affiliated with the Alliance ever, then yeah. You could pretty easily say that. And it would have been true.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    If you are talking about the rear assault at one of the gates in icecrown that was under the command of another orc. But in general yes, he was. And he learns from it. Perfect characters are dull, flawed character who become better and retain their personality are much more interesting. Check the link I used in the post you are quoting.
    I get what you mean, he was honourable at some times. But most of his actions are not, especially the last ones which made him get rekt by the Alliance and rebels. So to dismiss all this and call him a honorable Orc is not correct. Especially the attacks during the Northrend-Campaign is fucking stupid as well (I wonder if Blizzard wrote any kind of lore specifically about the alliance/horde soldiers who died under those circumstances, didn't anyone object the Horde because of such reasons?)

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by ArgusTheUnmaker View Post
    ...Thank you Saurfang. Honestly, wise choice.

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