Ret Paladin changes are nice but...

[Ramiell]

Given the number of people who complained all through MoP and WoD that we didn't feel like a melee class anymore, when we had less range than what you are suggesting, I'm gonna say you're wrong there. We were changed back to almost exclusively melee abilities for a reason.

I'm talking to you right now and my argument still stands. Again, look at at the Paladin archetypes in other Blizzard IP's. I'm not even going to get into how I feel about WoW's "vocal majority" player base as a whole.

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Give me back Hammer of Wrath but don't give me any single target ranged abilities. We're a melee class.

Pick one.

Don't try to use logic around here. Won't get you very far.

Yeah, I should have known better right?

[Elkas]

Give me back Hammer of Wrath but don't give me any single target ranged abilities. We're a melee class.

Pick one.

Having a ranged spell or ability, while being dominantly melee, is different than having the majority of your abilities be ranged. Otherwise warriors would've been ranged classes back when they could equip ranged weapons, and hunters were melee classes back when they all had Raptor Strike.

Ranged dps classes are also subject to a whole slate of different rules, so no, we do not need to become a ranged class.

[Swampmoose]

Having a ranged spell or ability, while being dominantly melee, is different than having the majority of your abilities be ranged. Ranged dps classes are subject to a whole slate of different rules, so no, we do not need to become a ranged class.

Glad you continued reading to see my thoughts on that.

Yeah, I should have known better right?

1700 posts later, I still haven't learned.

[EternalBany]

Would it be so hard to just give us WOTLK paladins back
Strong judment, ranged exorcism and hammer

Also, combo points might be the reason this class is ever so clunky

[Swampmoose]

Would it be so hard to just give us WOTLK paladins back
Strong judment, ranged exorcism and hammer

Also, combo points might be the reason this class is ever so clunky

WOTLK retribution was trash. Facerolling is not interesting and HP saved the class from that.

[Binks]

In my opinion Holy Power should be removed.

I know this is subjetive, but to me it makes the spec really unfun. If it was removed from Holy and Protect why not Ret? We are holy warriors not rogues, and sincerely, with Holy Power and Inquisition I cant help but think in combo points and slice and dice.

We do not "combo" our moves. I think it makes more sense and is more fun if we were limited with cooldowns or procs.

[Schattenlied]

Give me back Hammer of Wrath but don't give me any single target ranged abilities. We're a melee class.

Pick one.

1. 1 ability isn't every ability except crusader strike. Big difference bub.

2. Have you noticed that Hammer of Wrath can only be used under specific circumstances?

Don't try to use logic around here.

That's hilarious coming from you, given the complete lack of logic in what you just said about HoW.

I'm talking to you right now

No, really?

and my argument still stands. Again, look at at the Paladin archetypes in other Blizzard IP's.

Ok, Warcraft isn't other IPs. And it's almost like, in those other IPs, you have to spec specifically to be any good at ranged, and they are, by default, almost exclusively melee oriented... Almost like it's a specalization specific thing... And what's Ret's specalization? 2H melee DPS.

If you want a ranged Paladin spec, ask for a 4th spec or a talent for Holy, don't butcher the DPS spec we already have to make it something it was never intended to be.

Go ask for a shockadin spec, or a gladiator stance type talent for Holy where it belongs, leave Ret alone.

[Swampmoose]

1. 1 ability isn't every ability except crusader strike. Big difference bub.

2. Have you noticed that Hammer of Wrath can only be used under specific circumstances?

That's hilarious coming from you, given the complete lack of logic in what you just said about HoW.

Bait taken Bub. Just seeing if you were going to admit ranged abilities are OK, but only the ones YOU want despite your short, smart-assed, generalized comment of "we're a melee class, no" which would imply none are acceptable.

[Schattenlied]

Bait taken Bub. Just seeing if you were going to admit ranged abilities are OK, but only the ones YOU want despite your short, smart-assed, generalized comment of "we're a melee class, no" which would imply none are acceptable.

Only the ones I want? No, I'm fine with any ranged abilities, just not TOO MANY ranged abilities... Every ability except CS being made ranged is far, far too many, I explain that in my last post... If you bothered to learn how to read you'd know that already. We are a melee class, that means most of our abilities should be melee, not ranged... This guy is suggesting that the vast majority of our abilities be ranged.

You, again, lack logic, and apparently reading comprehension skills...

[Swampmoose]

Only the ones I want? No, I'm fine with any ranged abilities, just not TOO MANY ranged abilities... Every ability except CS being made ranged is far, far too many, I explain that in my last post... If you bothered to learn how to read you'd know that already. We are a melee class, that means most of our abilities should be melee, not ranged... This guy is suggesting that the vast majority of our abilities be ranged.

You, again, lack logic, and apparently reading comprehension skills...

So again, you're OK with ranged abilities, but only the ones you want/how many you want (same difference), despite your "no we're melee" comment. You're not making much progress with your argument.

You are probably too lost to even recognize that with the exclusion of CS from his list, only Templar's Verdict and Blade of Justice would become ranged. One of them already has a bit of range to it. So only 1 ability would be converted from Melee only to ranged, with one having it's range increased. 2 abilities, OMG TOO MANY OMG. Then there's the fact that you're not generating any HP outside of melee range with just BOJ so you could only use TV from range about once every 20 seconds. Or how about the fact that you need to be in melee range for weapon damage, BoW procs, etc. Yeah we would definitely become a ranged class with that kind of broken power.

You're just crying that the class might exceed some arbitrary number of ranged abilities that you have determined a melee class can have with zero justification other than "that's what it should be." Very constructive. Strong argument. Don't be surprised if I don't bother to read much of your follow-up either.

[Schattenlied]

So again, you're OK with ranged abilities, but only the ones you want/how many you want (same difference), despite your "no we're melee" comment. You're not making much progress with your argument.

Yes, I am... You see, classifying something as a "melee" means they are "melee", a melee class that can do 75-80% of it's rotation from 30y away isn't really melee anymore... It's a ranged melee hybrid, leaning heavily towards ranged.

You are probably too lost to even recognize that with the exclusion of CS from his list

You again fail basic reading comprehension, since I specified that myself 2 frekin posts ago.

only Templar's Verdict and Blade of Justice would become ranged. One of them already has a bit of range to it. So only 1 ability would be converted from Melee only to ranged, with one having it's range increased.

BoJ is basically not ranged already... 12y is like 2y out of melee range... whoopdodo. No one really considers it a ranged ability right now.

2 abilities, OMG TOO MANY OMG.

2, plus the 2 we already have (judge, HoW), that makes 4/5 (3/4 if you don't take HoW) of our rotational abilities ranged. 75-80% ranged abilities does not a melee make.

Then there's the fact that you're not generating any HP outside of melee range with just BOJ so you could only use TV from range about once every 20 seconds. Or how about the fact that you need to be in melee range for weapon damage, BoW procs, etc. Yeah we would definitely become a ranged class with that kind of broken power.

We wouldn't be ranged, but we definitely wouldn't be melee either. We are supposed to be a melee, not a melee ranged hybrid.


Your logic is undeniably borked.

[Reith]

We're a melee class. No.

Exorcism was 30 yards (BoJ is only 12), we had Hammer of Wrath baseline and usable during wings as well, we could use a glyph to make Word of Glory do damage to enemies and we had Censure as our DOT. Now we don't have any of these things, except Hammer of Wrath as a talent. Yay. We were still considered Melee at that point, too. And it's spec, not class...

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In my opinion Holy Power should be removed.

I know this is subjetive, but to me it makes the spec really unfun. If it was removed from Holy and Protect why not Ret? We are holy warriors not rogues, and sincerely, with Holy Power and Inquisition I cant help but think in combo points and slice and dice.

We do not "combo" our moves. I think it makes more sense and is more fun if we were limited with cooldowns or procs.

No. You just want it to be easier. I want the skill ceiling to be higher, not lower.

[Schattenlied]

Exorcism was 30 yards (BoJ is only 12), we had Hammer of Wrath baseline and usable during wings as well, we could use a glyph to make Word of Glory do damage to enemies and we had Censure as our DOT. Now we don't have any of these things, except Hammer of Wrath as a talent. Yay. We were still considered Melee at that point, too. And it's spec, not class...

And Blizzard removed all those things for a reason, citing that reason to be we didn't really feel like a melee anymore.

[Reith]

And Blizzard removed all those things for a reason, citing that reason to be we didn't really feel like a melee anymore.

Then what was the reason they removed the mobility talent row on top of that? Was that because melee don't need mobility talent options? They could've taken one or the other and it would've made more sense, but both? Makes no sense.

[Schattenlied]

Then what was the reason they removed the mobility talent row on top of that? Was that because melee don't need mobility talent options? They could've taken one or the other and it would've made more sense, but both? Makes no sense.

They wanted us to be the slow, hard to kill, heavy hitter... They failed miserably at it, because we're definitely not durable, but that was their intent.

[Swampmoose]

Yes, I am... You see, classifying something as a "melee" means they are "melee", a melee class that can do 75-80% of it's rotation from 30y away isn't really melee anymore... It's a ranged melee hybrid, leaning heavily towards ranged.

You can't do any sort of "rotation" from ranged when most holy power generation requires being in melee. You can use judgement once every 9 secs or so, BoJ every 10, and TV after 2 BoJ. That's not a rotation. That's 3 abilities spread over a lengthy amount of time. Already covered this. Keep up.

You again fail basic reading comprehension, since I specified that myself 2 frekin posts ago.

Stopped reading here. You talk about reading comprehension, yet cut off half of the sentence to quote, while removing the remainder of the sentence that completes the thought. Ironic. You are too simple to even have a conversation with.

[Schattenlied]

You can't do any sort of "rotation" from ranged when most holy power generation requires being in melee. You can use judgement once every 9 secs or so, BoJ every 10, and TV after 2 BoJ. That's not a rotation. That's 3 abilities spread over a lengthy amount of time. Already covered this. Keep up.

Hell of a lot more than every other melee class can do.

Stopped reading here. You talk about reading comprehension, yet cut off half of the sentence to quote, while removing the remainder of the sentence that completes the thought.

I responded to the remainder of the sentence directly below the part you quoted. This is why "stopped reading here" just makes you look like a tool. Take note, don't do it again, for your own sake.

You are too simple to even have a conversation with.

Hilarity, coming from you.

Learn to goddamn read.

[Swampmoose]

I responded to the remainder of the sentence directly below the part you quoted.

Irrelevant. The sentence was a complete thought. You don't pick apart bits and pieces to make it fit your dumbass arguments. Go back to middle school and learn the basics of the English language.

[Schattenlied]

Irrelevant moron. The sentence was a complete thought. You don't pick apart bits and pieces to make it fit your dumbass arguments. Go back to middle school and learn the basics of the English language.

"You are probably too lost to even recognize that with the exclusion of CS from his list, only Templar's Verdict and Blade of Justice would become ranged."

No, it was a sentence with 2 thoughts in it... One thought berating me for something I didn't do, and then a followup thought that actually should have been part of the next sentence, which also probly should have been combined with the one after that.

They deserved separate responses, because the first one was entirely irrelevant, due to me having addressed it 2 posts before you brought it up like you thought you were being clever, when, ironically, you were the one being lost.


Also, enjoy all the reports for flaming and namecalling, I'm sure that will go over well with the mods.

[Swampmoose]

No, it was a sentence with 2 thoughts in it. One berating me for something I didn't do, and then a followup. They deserved separate responses, because the first one was entirely irrelevant, due to me having addressed it 2 posts before you brought it up like a smartass thinking you were being clever, when, ironically, you were the one being lost.

Jesus Christ. It had nothing to do with something you "didn't do" genius. Do you need me to recap it for you or rephrase it for you? Let me try.

You are too worried about your arbitrary cap on the number of ranged abilities we "should" have to realize that there are only 2 abilities that would have their range increased if CS is excluded from the list of abilities that would become ranged. Those two abilities are TV and BoJ.

That is one thought. Whether or not you recognized that CS was excluded was not the point. The point was, it's only two abilities. If you still can't understand this...there's no saving you.