Enemies of Skill Cap.

[tyrlaan]

Fixed that for you. Did you forget what "alpha" means?

No, not forget. More like blatant refusal to accept what the word means. I've tried a few times and basically get told I'm wrong each time.

[Dmitro]

*sigh* like more spells equals more skill. The only thing it means is that you need to buy a mouse with more buttons...

do you realise that more spells mean more stuff to remember for every situation and thus increasing the potential skill cap between the average player and the absolute pro (read the thread title again)

check this out



spoiler - 70% of the spells and micro-mechanics described in that video are pruned so the play he made is no longer possible... but ye, lets laugh about those stupid noobs wanting more spells!

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Most people that are talking about the class changes are doing so in their CLASS forum threads.

the issue in not abous specific classes, its global and affect class designs overall thus should be discussed in this subforum

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Because you using the class design, doesn't actually make you an expert in class design.
You are using a web-browser, are you an expert in actually programming and implementing that browser?

1) it does, it simple, if joe does Y all the time as a job for 10 years he is slowly becoming aware of how the whole process operates, unlike bob who does X all the time that at most requires only 30% of Y so his perspective on the issue is limited to this minority of overall thing (aka rotation of the whole class), it doesnt make every pvper a pro-class designer, yes, but it makes an average pvper understand classes more deeply than the average pver due to the reasons that the entire gameplay of pvpers is based around classes and classes only

why is that too hard to grasp?

[Deleted]

You assume that he wouldn't be able to do that with less spells. Not less spells than anyone else mind you, since other classes got pruned as well.

It basically has shifted from using spells in the correct order to using the correct spell at the correct time. If you have less spells to work with the player's decisionmaking gets more important.

Now obviously it's bad to have too few spells, but to need more spells than you have keybinds doesn't have anything to do with skill...

[Dmitro]

Oh wow, stances in Arena! If only most people didn't just macro the shit out of- oh wait that's what they did. Macro the stuff that requires you to chance stances, and your DPS is basically hitting whatever lights up during Wrath. Such complexity, much depth.

Mythic mechanics ARE about individual skill when one dead dummy usually means a wipe. If one person messes up on Varimathras, your raid is dead. If one idiot walks over the tank and instagibs them both during lightning adds on Coven, you wipe. If one waste of space stands in Cone of Death on Argus, you probably won't push the DPS check, and even if you brez them that's one less precious brez for ph3 where they matter. I could go on and on. You can't really carry people on harder Mythic fights, everyone has to be decently good.

Your point about M+ runs contrary to your narrative, as it is not only about individual responsibility but utility and class-specific abilities are vital to success as well (so is Antorus come to think of it). Maybe not in +15 where you can carry a bad person, but in +20 onwards if you aren't playing your class well you are probably tanking the run for everyone else. That means skill matters, a lot. There's a reason raider.io is a thing.

I couldn't care less about PvP if I tried so I'll take your word for it that it's been made easier, but seeing as there are still really good players attaining very high ranks I doubt it's been made anything close to easy, not to mention ''easy'' is always relative in PvP.

1) you're truly absolutely delusional to think you could macro even 20% of stance changing mechanics, I mean, by you saying that I am confident you never actually pvped above like even 2200 in wrath, have a look (if you capable of) how war was actually played before (compare it to how it digraceful is today)



2) now they are not, they are mostly about how you coordinate with your team (stack/soak/spread etc bullshit), individual skill is its 100% about your character and how you operate it through ability usage, when it involves you doing something for your raid - its a team play thing. Have a close look (plz) how an individual god-like skill looks like in WoW (mythic raiding is predicable and scripted, you cant really "shine" mechanically, like be mountains above everybody else like you can sometimes in pvp with how you operate your class (not possible in legion btw - thanks for prunings)



3) "as it is not only about individual responsibility but utility and class-specific abilities" - are you actually that not capable to read and comprehend things? Explaining that again for you, there 2 different styles of difficulty in wow - class mechanics (your rotation, utility and so on) and boss/trash mechanics, in m+ boss/trash mechanics do exist but their share in total "difficulty" isnt as huge as it is in mythic raid (60>80% imo) thus mythic plus difficulty directly relies on how complex your class is and how many utilities (and how hard it is for you to properly use them) you have.

4) once again, 150% false, pvp has always been harder in this game (watch 3 videos above and tell me that pve aspect of the gmae has higher individual skill ceiling), btw, and here we go again, its easier, thats why most top players quit, thats why the ones who are still playing are whining that due to simplified classes even the most boosted animals now can win like 3/10 games against them, wasnt a thing before, because a pro player in wotlk-cata-mop would always shit on an average gladiator (like me) kind of player, just by nature, because the skill cap was so much higher in spec designs, so many more stuff to press/do/fail on.

for example



check this out, 117-3, more than 90% winratio, you wont find a single r1 today with this kind due to the 2 prunings and thus making counter-comping (you lose vs some comps no matter what, literally nothing to do in most cases (cause tools are gone) and overall simplicity in resource-management (warrior-rogues-dk for example) and simplistic dps rotations

[Drusin]

I just came here to say that something being time consuming doesn't make it hard. Whenever I hear people talk about how hard something used to be they always say "it took months to get ..." and? Farming isn't hard, just a time sink. Yeah sure, it might be hard in the sense that you have a job and 3 kids to take care, still have to spend time with your spouse, etc but it's not actually difficult content you just don't have the time to do it.

[Dmitro]

You assume that he wouldn't be able to do that with less spells. Not less spells than anyone else mind you, since other classes got pruned as well.

It basically has shifted from using spells in the correct order to using the correct spell at the correct time. If you have less spells to work with the player's decisionmaking gets more important.

Now obviously it's bad to have too few spells, but to need more spells than you have keybinds doesn't have anything to do with skill...

lmao what? If all classes got less options to shine and make plays then yes, all classes now are pruned and making plays is equally hard for everybody (tho for some classes its more, for some classes its less, as an example, warriors utility is totally dead, while even in legion sub rogues have some decision making involved and complexity in the spec).

if a piano has twice less buttons you will no longer be able to make it sound as good and complex as it used to be, same for wow.

"It basically has shifted from using spells in the correct order to using the correct spell at the correct time" - nope, false, both of these types of operating your class are now less difficult (name me a wotlk spec and lets compare it to legions itteration)

"correct spell at the correct time" - lies, it would be true if for example only rotations got easier, but its not the case, most of classes utility is also gone thus making correct spell - correct time easier > less spells > less desicion involved whether to use X Y Z D in any situation, now its like X or Y > or in most cases just X


"but to need more spells than you have keybinds doesn't have anything to do with skill..."

it doest, I had 35 binded skills on my hunter in cata, I had to constantly rotate my aspects and analyze what ability fits the situation best plus while also keep tracking the distance (if you're a newbie you couldnt shoot in melee before mop, it actually wasnt easy at all) and dot status on all enemies, plus trapping was harder, you actually needed to land on top of the player and 2 secs before, it was slower and less directed, now its kinda of instant cc.

have a look at this video and please explain me in which aspects of the game the mm hunter now is harder to handle than in cataclysm, lets discuss in details





for some reason i am 1000% confident you never reached even 2k in arena, by the way you see things.

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I just came here to say that something being time consuming doesn't make it hard

but the main topic of the thread is class design issue, but whatever.

[Deleted]

I didn't expect you to understand my point and I was not let down. Comparing your playstyle to a pianist playing Beethoven or Mozart is a bit too arrogant for my taste, but oh well...

[Dmitro]

I didn't expect you to understand my point and I was not let down. Comparing your playstyle to a pianist playing Beethoven or Mozart is a bit too arrogant for my taste, but oh well...

once again, GIVE ME A SPECIFIC example (instead of discussing my personality) where one spec got harder more complex to handle than before, JUST A SINGLE SPEC (and why exactly), and we shall discuss it in details, stop chickening out.

your point was that the difficulty is the same its just on different levels which is pure bullshit which I've already explained why (sad you cant read apparently)

[Drusin]

but the main topic of the thread is class design issue, but whatever.

That's nice. Next time I'll make a note that I'm responding to what others have said about gearing being hard and not commenting on the OP

[Dmitro]

That's nice. Next time I'll make a note that I'm responding to what others have said about gearing being hard and not commenting on the OP

but gearing is easier nowadays due to welfare-ish catch up mechanics that just didnt exist before, today you can get somewhat close to even mythic raiders without even raiding once lol, was not like mathematically possible in any classic-cata expansion, so its not just about "how much time you spend" also about what do you do to get X kind of gear

[Gardoc]

You assume that he wouldn't be able to do that with less spells. Not less spells than anyone else mind you, since other classes got pruned as well.

It basically has shifted from using spells in the correct order to using the correct spell at the correct time. If you have less spells to work with the player's decisionmaking gets more important.

Now obviously it's bad to have too few spells, but to need more spells than you have keybinds doesn't have anything to do with skill...

WTF did I just read. Having less spells only means having less options how to react. WotLK was all about reaction and using the correct spells at the correct time. At higher levels using a single wrong spell would result in loss. In Legion you're just a dps bot with occasional kick or stun. If you mess up, nothing happens, the game doesn't punish you for making mistakes anymore.

[Dmitro]

WTF did I just read. Having less spells only means having less options how to react. WotLK was all about reaction and using the correct spells at the correct time. At higher levels using a single wrong spell would result in loss. In Legion you're just a dps bot with occasional kick or stun. If you mess up, nothing happens, the game doesn't punish you for making mistakes anymore.

"If you have less spells to work with the player's decisionmaking gets more important. "

I mean what can you possibly add...

less options to answer a specific situation > somehow more decision making!

what makes these people (I am 100% confident all of these casuals itt never even got to 2200) think they have something to tell us when it comes to how the game works or should work

[Drusin]

but gearing is easier nowadays due to welfare-ish catch up mechanics that just didnt exist before, today you can get somewhat close to even mythic raiders without even raiding once lol, was not like mathematically possible in any classic-cata expansion, so its not just about "how much time you spend" also about what do you do to get X kind of gear

I'm not talking about how fast you can get gear I'm talking about difficulty of the event to get the gear.

People are like, oh pfft I can get a full 960 set in 2 months by just doing 1 dungeon a week. In vanilla I had to spend months farming mobs to get a set.

So...farming mobs is harder than a dungeon? Check.

idgaf about how long it took. It's mindless farming, that shit is not hard.

[Jastall]

-Snipped for brevity's sake and great justice-

Yeah, you're clearly not looking for a discussion at all, you just want to regurgitate your talking points and expect everyone to agree because you use old videos. I already said I'm utterly uninterested in the pillar-humping snoozefest that is this game's PvP, but if you really think there's no place for skillful play above and beyond the average in Mythic raiding there's really no reason for me to bother because it is obvious you're trying to talk shit about something you never did.

Why do you think Method and Exorsus manage to beat the final boss of an instance sometimes weeks before anyone else on a regular basis? Pure luck? Have you checked Mythic KJ and how incredibly demanding that fight is on an individual level even after it was repeatedly nerfed? How being off by one yard in your positioning ended with oyu being punted off the platform without mercy? You actually believe it took 700 pulls for Method to beat that fight, and several hundred for everyone else post-nerf, because it's scripted and predictable? Even vastly easier bosses like Argus and Gul'dan still took 300 pulls to beat, you're denying reality if you believe it takes no skill because classes have 2-3 fewer abilities than in Wrath (if that).

Again I couldn't care less about PvP, and I'm not sure how many times I have to say it. Maybe it's been made super easy, or maybe the balance now is better than before which is why rank 1 players don't have lopsided winrates. But PvP is such a small part of the game that I can't bring myself to cry over it. Plus if there's one thing I learned about the PvP community, it's that they always find the current expansion to have the worst PvP. I remember so much crying about balance in Wrath, about DKs early in the xpack and about Warriors later on. So I'm not really fazed by he idea that the whiniest community in WoW whines some more.

[Dmitro]

Yeah, you're clearly not looking for a discussion at all, you just want to regurgitate your talking points and expect everyone to agree because you use old videos. I already said I'm utterly uninterested in the pillar-humping snoozefest that is this game's PvP, but if you really think there's no place for skillful play above and beyond the average in Mythic raiding there's really no reason for me to bother because it is obvious you're trying to talk shit about something you never did.

Why do you think Method and Exorsus manage to beat the final boss of an instance sometimes weeks before anyone else on a regular basis? Pure luck? Have you checked Mythic KJ and how incredibly demanding that fight is on an individual level even after it was repeatedly nerfed? How being off by one yard in your positioning ended with oyu being punted off the platform without mercy? You actually believe it took 700 pulls for Method to beat that fight, and several hundred for everyone else post-nerf, because it's scripted and predictable? Even vastly easier bosses like Argus and Gul'dan still took 300 pulls to beat, you're denying reality if you believe it takes no skill because classes have 2-3 fewer abilities than in Wrath (if that).

Again I couldn't care less about PvP, and I'm not sure how many times I have to say it. Maybe it's been made super easy, or maybe the balance now is better than before which is why rank 1 players don't have lopsided winrates. But PvP is such a small part of the game that I can't bring myself to cry over it. Plus if there's one thing I learned about the PvP community, it's that they always find the current expansion to have the worst PvP. I remember so much crying about balance in Wrath, about DKs early in the xpack and about Warriors later on. So I'm not really fazed by he idea that the whiniest community in WoW whines some more.

1) wrong, my point was not only about arenas or any other form of pvp, it was about classes and them getting pruned 2 last expansions, and guess what, pruning affect pve also, for example mana management has been reduced heavily among healers, so was threat mechanics (for example the only hard week threat wise is skittish for m+, while in all other weeks keeping threar is super easy and certainly made easier than before (comparing to wrath)), so dont pretend that class prunings is somehow pvp issue only, pathetic

2) "Have you checked Mythic KJ and how incredibly demanding that fight is on an individual level", not individual level, TEAM LEVEL, the entire difficulty of current mythic raiding is based around doing mechanics for your raid, not about you being a great warrior/mage/lock brilliantly operating with your class (and your class only) mechanics, dont confuse team mechanics (soaking/stacking/spreading and so fucking on) with individual skill (aka class mechanics - dps/mana management/threat management/ utility management)

3) "you're denying reality if you believe it takes no skill because classes have 2-3 fewer abilities than in Wrath" - takes less individual skill, takes much much more team play (how's that hard to grasp?)

4) "Maybe it's been made super easy, or maybe the balance now is better than before which is why rank 1 players don't have lopsided winrates." - absolutely stupid logic, let me explain, do you watch any mobas like Dota or LoL, so imagine a TI winner team playing vs an average 6000 mmr teams and winning 100-0 due to various skill cap options, and then imagine the game being simplified so much that even TI winners are starting to throw games here and there because you can no longer show your absolute supremacy in some game aspects, so the score is 100-15?

this is what lowering the skill cap made to wow pvp, not this pathetic "balance is better" excuse

[Ithekro]

Killing a paladin that thought he was out of range of a warlock, because he didn't know the warlock was an engineer with a wrist rocket launcher.

[Whywoulducare]

To me, PvP wise it has been the worst expansion I played since WOTLK.
Everything felt boring as fuck, and I really hate the fact we have to earn our "PVP TALENTS".
I miss the time where every spec felt "complete" and was pretty much the same PvE and PvP wise.
It's clear that they want to tone down the difference between high and low percentile players, putting everything on GCD, putting some current spells as talents and removing passives / spells are huge steps in this direction.

What they don't get, is that a lazy player, or a really bad one, will still be bad.
I did many rbg's with many specs at each expansion. I thought that players getting some kind of "baseline" PvP power would be the key to avoid stomps.
Oh my was I fucking wrong. Once upon a time you did ten time the damage or kills because you did overgear the crap out of the other players.
Having way more health, way more primary and secondary stats or resilience helped a freaking lot!
Now you can feel that they only are fucking bad and don't understand a single thing, being focus, rotation, perception, they are lost, fucking lost.

So is it useful to fuck the gameplay once again? I really don't think so. Good players feel meh because it's getting boring, dull, clunky.
The rest: don't care or are happy with these changes because hey, now they may appear on meters because if they did'nt
before was only because the game was too demanding, and they didn't have the time to read a single page on Icy Veins !
Who would do that anyway, it's only bad design if you can't grasp your spec instantly! (did already read this)

[Mafic]

You assume that he wouldn't be able to do that with less spells. Not less spells than anyone else mind you, since other classes got pruned as well.

It basically has shifted from using spells in the correct order to using the correct spell at the correct time. If you have less spells to work with the player's decisionmaking gets more important.

Now obviously it's bad to have too few spells, but to need more spells than you have keybinds doesn't have anything to do with skill...

Nope.

Timing mattered when classes had more abilities as well. Timing can not make a difference in Legion when a caster is being melee trained and has a lot of tools pruned away.

[Nozuka]

• our toolkits are still pruned, so far on average each spec got just 1-2 abilities back (some like Shadow Priests even lost many lul) after having 2 expansions which removed/turned into passives/moved to talents around literally half of our toolkits, which is a disgrace.

what are they taking away from shadow priests? did i miss something?

[Lazuli]

PVP derives its complexity from the "VP" aspect of it. M+ isn't really that different from mythic raiding once you go up to higher levels.

Tell that to the dead pvp community thanks to the needless pruning and simplicity of literally every spec in Legion. Granted, the pvp gearing being abysmal had a large roll to play in that. Still at alltime lows participation since WoD but worse. Pruning is killing the game and its already killed pvp. Never been easier or so lacking in complexity until Legion specifically. BfA is going to be even worse without all artifact passives and abilities but instead of trying to bring complexity back Blizz simply going to fail at yet another attempt to revive wpvp and nerf CC, it's comical at best. Instance pvp is riperino and we getting pruned even more GG I think they wanna be GW2.5 but may as well just play that instead since it looks prettier. I want my abilities back and with it, skillcap.

I rather don't enjoy spamming 1-2 buttons with a mere 5 situational abilities, couple of them being on long CD. I mean only difference between WoW and GW2 now is we have procs and they don't in the conventional sense, not rotationally anyway. I just want WoW back QQ It's not just ability bloat either, but the design of every spec is now complete faceroll in both pve and pvp. If you have a drop of self awareness you don't need to learn shit just press 123.