Why does blizzard character customization not have sliders?

[kary]

"Engine is too old."

Good old brainlet blizzdrones.

It was with the introduction of the character model revamp they featured multiple videos on how drastically are the models changed, allowing more shit done in a more efficient and better looking way.

So no, big fat NO to that sliders are not possible since "cuz engin old" - it's the typical blizzard antifun mindset, that people would create characters that look silly and unwarcraft-like and whatnot. Just remember how transmog was restrictive back then when they first added it.

Current models are on par with modern games, if not better in certain aspects. Yes, they lack all the different texture layers that add reflection, luminosity or translucence to the different material, but the way the animations are done are AAA.

tl;dr: Sliders are doable, that they don't want them/don't feel like needing them is other case.

Transmog is just as "restrictive" (i.e doesn't allow you to mog retarded things/things from different armour types) as it was from the jump, though.
What shit are you on?

[The One Percent]

Because this game runs on the Super Mario 64 engine.

Also, what Louz wrote.

[Louz]

Transmog is just as "restrictive" (i.e doesn't allow you to mog retarded things/things from different armour types) as it was from the jump, though.
What shit are you on?

You can mog different weapon types (as in mogging sword into mace, 2h axe into polearm etc.) and hide more than just helmet and cloak, also adding seasonal mogs that were previously only white items of certain armor type.
That wasn't possible for a long time.

I'm not saying transmog isn't restrictive, I'm saying it's not as restrictive as it was back then.

L2read fam.

[ls-]

So no, big fat NO to that sliders are not possible since "cuz engin old" - it's the typical blizzard antifun mindset, that people would create characters that look silly and unwarcraft-like and whatnot. Just remember how transmog was restrictive back then when they first added it.

The answer to this is presets. FF14 utilises them, there's presets for face shapes, eyes, noses, etc, so players can't create something that doesn't fit the setting.

-- edit #1

That's the reason why I'm comparing these two games, because both games use presets for char customisation. In WoW, however, it's severely limited.

[WowIsDead64]

"Engine is too old."

Good old brainlet blizzdrones.

It was with the introduction of the character model revamp they featured multiple videos on how drastically are the models changed, allowing more shit done in a more efficient and better looking way.

So no, big fat NO to that sliders are not possible since "cuz engin old" - it's the typical blizzard antifun mindset, that people would create characters that look silly and unwarcraft-like and whatnot. Just remember how transmog was restrictive back then when they first added it.

Current models are on par with modern games, if not better in certain aspects. Yes, they lack all the different texture layers that add reflection, luminosity or translucence to the different material, but the way the animations are done are AAA.

tl;dr: Sliders are doable, that they don't want them/don't feel like needing them is other case.

In modern games with modern engines models are morphed and textures are generated via using shaders on GPU in real time. So, all game needs to store in memory and send via network - is bunch of numbers, that describe your character. Wow uses old obsoleted pre-baked models and pre-baked textures. It means, that whole models and whole textures should be stored in memory in order to render them. And as every player can have unique model and unique textures - this means extremely high memory load. That's why our choices are so limited - because total amount of models and textures, stored in memory, should be limited.

[Deleted]

I always thought it was because of the gear/items that don't scale well on weirdly shaped characters.

[Louz]

In modern games with modern engines models are morphed and textures are generated via using shaders on GPU in real time. So, all game needs to store in memory and send via network - is bunch of numbers, that describe your character. Wow uses old obsoleted pre-baked models and pre-baked textures. It means, that whole models and whole textures should be stored in memory in order to render them. And as every player can have unique model and unique textures - this means extremely high memory load. That's why our choices are so limited - because total amount of models and textures, stored in memory, should be limited.

Wow look at you, trying to look like you know shit.

"So, all game needs to store in memory and send via network - is bunch of numbers, that describe your character."
You think the game sends whole textures and models via network? No, your character is just numbers, race number 2, hair number 5, face number 8 etc.

How do you think they achieved the new faces on the new character models, do you think there's actually different "pre-baked" face models? It's morphs, all with certain number, so your game doesn't send an information that certain vertex has this and that angle, the server simply sends the information to both your and others clients that your character has face number X, and your client receives the information and presents it on your screen.

That way, you could have say scale number for height, another one for boobs, another one for gut, arms, legs... I'm sure you know what I mean.

Also, not every game uses fucking Unreal Engine, needless to say, procedural or whatever you'd call it textures, don't always look that great, in fact, with hand-painted graphics style, they look completely hideous, something like "my first blender project, plz rate".

"Pre-baked" textures, as you call it, ARE still a thing.

[grexly75]

Ah yes. Customizable sliders that you can spend hours fine tuning every freckle, scar, and blemish on your characters face...only to spend almost all your game time looking at the back of their head.

Yeah I can never understand the minute adjustments in some games, when as you said you spend about 99% of the time looking from behind your toon..

[WowIsDead64]

Wow look at you, trying to look like you know shit.

"So, all game needs to store in memory and send via network - is bunch of numbers, that describe your character."
You think the game sends whole textures and models via network? No, your character is just numbers, race number 2, hair number 5, face number 8 etc.

How do you think they achieved the new faces on the new character models, do you think there's actually different "pre-baked" face models? It's morphs, all with certain number, so your game doesn't send an information that certain vertex has this and that angle, the server simply sends the information to both your and others clients that your character has face number X, and your client receives the information and presents it on your screen.

That way, you could have say scale number for height, another one for boobs, another one for gut, arms, legs... I'm sure you know what I mean.

Also, not every game uses fucking Unreal Engine, needless to say, procedural or whatever you'd call it textures, don't always look that great, in fact, with hand-painted graphics style, they look completely hideous, something like "my first blender project, plz rate".

"Pre-baked" textures, as you call it, ARE still a thing.

"Pre-baked model" means, that if you want to have fat or thin human - you need to create completely new separate model for it, store it in data files and then load it to VRAM in order to render it. "Pre-baked" texture means, that if you have green set and want to have red one - you have to create completely new separate texture for it, store it in data files and then it to VRAM in order to render it. Consequence of such design? If one player plays fat human in green set and other player thin human in red set - both fat and thin models and green and red textures should be loaded to memory on both computers at the same time. Now imagine 10 players, 20, 30, 40, etc.

How does dynamic generating work? You have one single patten texture, that is shared between all players. It has 3 channels - red, green and blue. Intensity of 3 colors is coded in this channels. Player can pick any 3 colors, he wants. And shader simply replaces red, green and blue colors with colors, picked by players. Completely dynamically at run time. So, one single shared texture = infinite amount of possible color combinations. That's, how armor dyeing works.

See MWO Camo Patterns for reference:

[Deleted]

Thank god we have so many expert programmer/developer/engeneer in Mmo-Champion. This forum is truly a place where you can find deep knowledge, professional people, all with master degrees and over.
Let's not mention how many of the posters have multiple years of experience specifically in Video Games industries. We shuold be grateful to read all their post. I don't think you will find a more selected pool of professionists.

/s

[Lucetia]

The game's too old.

It's a terrible excuse, yeah. I personally feel WoW, or Blizzard for that matter, would benefit greatly from making WoW2. Give WoW a fresh start with a new engine, revamp gameplay. Set the bar high again for MMORPG's. They did it before, they can do it again.

Problem with WoW2 is that most would quit at that point since they wouldn't be able to transfer over everything. If they did that would mean WoW2 would have to be a clone of WoW1 with a different enginee.

While WoW2 could be good, most won't see it worth the time and effort after they spent 0-15 years on WoW1.

[Kaleredar]

"Engine is too old."

Good old brainlet blizzdrones.

It was with the introduction of the character model revamp they featured multiple videos on how drastically are the models changed, allowing more shit done in a more efficient and better looking way.

So no, big fat NO to that sliders are not possible since "cuz engin old" - it's the typical blizzard antifun mindset, that people would create characters that look silly and unwarcraft-like and whatnot. Just remember how transmog was restrictive back then when they first added it.

Current models are on par with modern games, if not better in certain aspects. Yes, they lack all the different texture layers that add reflection, luminosity or translucence to the different material, but the way the animations are done are AAA.

tl;dr: Sliders are doable, that they don't want them/don't feel like needing them is other case.

No, it's not feasible to do because it would be a tremendous amount of work. The game WAS NOT built to allow for customization sliders.

Swapping out new models for old models isn't remotely the same. Swapping out new models for old models is literally replacing a file in a directory. Creating characters that can be changed by sliders requires not only creating an entire system of blend shapes/morph targets for every character model but also fine tuning the armor pieces to address clipping and texture stretching.

And then, of course, you actually have to program those and the requisite UI elements into the game.

[Louz]

"Pre-baked model" means, that if you want to have fat or thin human - you need to create completely new separate model for it, store it in data files and then load it to VRAM in order to render it. "Pre-baked" texture means, that if you have green set and want to have red one - you have to create completely new separate texture for it, store it in data files and then it to VRAM in order to render it. Consequence of such design? If one player plays fat human in green set and other player thin human in red set - both fat and thin models and green and red textures should be loaded to memory on both computers at the same time. Now imagine 10 players, 20, 30, 40, etc.

How does dynamic generating work? You have one single patten texture, that is shared between all players. It has 3 channels - red, green and blue. Intensity of 3 colors is coded in this channels. Player can pick any 3 colors, he wants. And shader simply replaces red, green and blue colors with colors, picked by players. Completely dynamically at run time. So, one single shared texture = infinite amount of possible color combinations. That's, how armor dyeing works.

See MWO Camo Patterns for reference:

Except none of what you described is "dynamicly generated".

Setting a color to material is one thing. There's a problem with hand painted graphics however - if you have say armor with battle dents/scratched color, what do you think it would look like if you painted it red? The dents and scratches would be red too, which in the end would not look like it should. So then you need a different map that has the elements that are not to be painted, which means more data.

In the end, your client receives information to use texture number X and paint it number Y.

Just like the faces, I wouldn't expect them to create different models for all the combinations of fat and thin parts. Instead, just like the faces, they would morph it.
So your client loads the model "gnome" and receives the information that his arms should be buff, and therefore use morph number 3. No normal gnome, thin gnome, fat gnome, buff gnome... Just gnome.

No, it's not feasible to do because it would be a tremendous amount of work. The game WAS NOT built to allow for customization sliders.

Swapping out new models for old models isn't remotely the same. Swapping out new models for old models is literally replacing a file in a directory. Creating characters that can be changed by sliders requires not only creating an entire system of blend shapes/morph targets for every character model but also fine tuning the armor pieces to address clipping and texture stretching.

And then, of course, you actually have to program those and the requisite UI elements into the game.

You look terribly misinformed, I suggest you watch their videos on the new character models, they made quite a fuss about it, truth be told, it's a massive upgrade from the old models just from the technical point of view, no doubt about that.
I'm used to people here oversimplifying shit, but to say the models are JUST a model swap is just bullshit. It was an actual system update.

And to say that "you would need to program those and then adjust the UI". That just sounds lazy. Yes, it would cost time, but then everything does and it's up to them whether or not they feel like it would pay off.

My point is, deeper customization is nothing impossible. I'm talking about stuff like body scales, even if pre-set morphs, not increasing your eyelash length by 0.001 points.

The upright orcs are a perfect example of what the new models can do. It's the same model, hunched orc and upright. Difference is between the animations it uses. You can then have two orcs standing next to each other, but your game still loads "orc" and then uses hunched animations on one and upgright on the other. Faces work the same way actually, they're "animation", which is why they don't display in certain scenarios.
I'm sure someone with deeper knowledge could prove me wrong, but why not have body morphs too?

[Nihilan]

Except none of what you described is "dynamicly generated".

Setting a color to material is one thing. There's a problem with hand painted graphics however - if you have say armor with battle dents/scratched color, what do you think it would look like if you painted it red? The dents and scratches would be red too, which in the end would not look like it should. So then you need a different map that has the elements that are not to be painted, which means more data.

In the end, your client receives information to use texture number X and paint it number Y.

Just like the faces, I wouldn't expect them to create different models for all the combinations of fat and thin parts. Instead, just like the faces, they would morph it.
So your client loads the model "gnome" and receives the information that his arms should be buff, and therefore use morph number 3. No normal gnome, thin gnome, fat gnome, buff gnome... Just gnome.



You look terribly misinformed, I suggest you watch their videos on the new character models, they made quite a fuss about it, truth be told, it's a massive upgrade from the old models just from the technical point of view, no doubt about that.
I'm used to people here oversimplifying shit, but to say the models are JUST a model swap is just bullshit. It was an actual system update.

And to say that "you would need to program those and then adjust the UI". That just sounds lazy. Yes, it would cost time, but then everything does and it's up to them whether or not they feel like it would pay off.

My point is, deeper customization is nothing impossible. I'm talking about stuff like body scales, even if pre-set morphs, not increasing your eyelash length by 0.001 points.

The upright orcs are a perfect example of what the new models can do. It's the same model, hunched orc and upright. Difference is between the animations it uses. You can then have two orcs standing next to each other, but your game still loads "orc" and then uses hunched animations on one and upgright on the other. Faces work the same way actually, they're "animation", which is why they don't display in certain scenarios.
I'm sure someone with deeper knowledge could prove me wrong, but why not have body morphs too?

The irony here is is amusing.

It takes blizzard a year to implement model revamps for static models. And they didnt even do every race. How long would it take for a full remodel of every character race and every piece of armor that can be equipped by said races. The armors would all have to have fluid scaling built into them in order for them to conform to various PC model morphs.

Nevermind the texturing of said models.

In what reality do you envision this amount of effort being expended on a 15 year old IP - by Blizzard of all companies?

There are people in this thread telling it like it is and your response basically boils down to sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming LALALALALA.

[Magister of Quelthalas]

It is time for WoW 2! Right?

[Draeth]

WoW was made to run on toasters when it was new in 2004, at a time when that kind of character customization was cutting edge. The game has been financially successful by casting as wide a net as Blizzard can fashion and they try pretty damn hard not to push any customers out because of their hardware until it's literally so old that the operating systems that run on it are depreciated.