[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Mayhem]

Nothing I have written suggests otherwise nor do I mention anything other than non-member states are able to be members of an EU regulatory body therefore I do not see how you reached the conclusion that I do not grasp how the EU works. Your post is bizarre!

The "Oh, really?" in response to "It's an EU agency. You won't be a member so you're leaving it too." suggests just that yes. Bizarre indeed.

We're coming back to, whats the point in leaving if the UK will have to abide by EU rules and regulations and stay under ECJ jurisdiction while paying their share of the budget of these organisations?

[Pann]

It's a timely reminder that no matter how far apart our countries might appear to be at the moment that we still share many things in common and will come to the aid of each other in times of trouble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43415271

I, like many in the UK, am grateful to France and Germany, as well as the US, for their support.

[Mayhem]

It's a timely reminder that no matter how far apart our countries might appear to be at the moment that we still share many things in common and will come to the aid of each other in times of trouble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43415271

I, like many in the UK, am grateful to France and Germany, as well as the US, for their support.

I hope you understand that most of us here aren't against the UK or its citizens but the ridiculous garbage some of your politicians present and their devote followers, like in return i would understand you for talking smack about our far-right/right wing coalition and the country that elected such clowns. I do applaude you for banning an austrian far-right lunatic from entering your country, arresting him as he tried nonetheless and sending him back to us.

[dribbles]

Good news day for Brexiteers, the EU capitulation begins...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ules-grvz62qkv

"Britain will be free to sign trade deals during the Brexit transition period without permission from the European Union after a climbdown by Brussels, The Times has learnt"

Told you they need us more than we need them, don't want to say I told you so, but well, I did.

[Mayhem]

Good news day for Brexiteers, the EU capitulation begins...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ules-grvz62qkv

"Britain will be free to sign trade deals during the Brexit transition period without permission from the European Union after a climbdown by Brussels, The Times has learnt"

Told you they need us more than we need them, don't want to say I told you so, but well, I did.

Congrats the UK has managed to be allowed to have trade deal talks after it has left the EU, well done, well done.

[Slant]

It's a timely reminder that no matter how far apart our countries might appear to be at the moment that we still share many things in common and will come to the aid of each other in times of trouble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43415271

I, like many in the UK, am grateful to France and Germany, as well as the US, for their support.

Naturally. Do you actually think this whole comedy is going to estrange the countries? We're amusing you, because fuck it, you're British and this silliness is just the sort of thing you do once in a while. Possibly, because you tend to get bored rather easily and want to shake things up. This is a fun debate and some people actually display an utter lack of a brain in this thread, but until the UK discovers an island propellant that will actually shift them over towards New York, they'll be Europe. Whether they like it or not. :P

- - - Updated - - -

Good news day for Brexiteers, the EU capitulation begins...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ules-grvz62qkv

"Britain will be free to sign trade deals during the Brexit transition period without permission from the European Union after a climbdown by Brussels, The Times has learnt"

Told you they need us more than we need them, don't want to say I told you so, but well, I did.

You realise that the EU is simply accepting the fact that the UK will start discussing trade deals with third countries and just like Britain has no right to determine what happens inside the EU after they left, the EU has no right to impede the UK's way after they have left the EU, right? Oh... who am I talking to...

What your two braincells seem to think is that this means they will start trade talks with the EU before the conditions are met. That's a different thing. This is not a capitulation, this is how it's always intended to go. :P

[Pann]

Naturally. Do you actually think this whole comedy is going to estrange the countries? We're amusing you, because fuck it, you're British and this silliness is just the sort of thing you do once in a while. Possibly, because you tend to get bored rather easily and want to shake things up. This is a fun debate and some people actually display an utter lack of a brain in this thread, but until the UK discovers an island propellant that will actually shift them over towards New York, they'll be Europe. Whether they like it or not. :P

I really have no idea what you're trying to say. Do you think this makes you seem clever?

It would appear to be nothing more than yet another childish attempt to provoke an argument, so I'll leave you to it - have fun!

[Dizzeeyooo]

Oh, really? Can a country not be a EASA member without being an EU member state? I guess you'd better let Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Switzerland know.

"Membership of EASA is contingent upon accepting the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union, something Britain has ruled out."
presumably that quote makes it completely clear why (currently) the UK will not continue to be a member of EASA after brexit

if we leave with no deal, including no deal to replace what EASA provides currently, then there will be no legal arrangement to cover flights between the UK and the EU, and also no legal arrangement to cover flights between the UK and the USA (based on the outcome of negotiations in which the USA is currently attempting to strong-arm the UK aviation industry)

[zealo]

Good news day for Brexiteers, the EU capitulation begins...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ules-grvz62qkv

"Britain will be free to sign trade deals during the Brexit transition period without permission from the European Union after a climbdown by Brussels, The Times has learnt"

Told you they need us more than we need them, don't want to say I told you so, but well, I did.

... You call that a capitulation? You do realise even if the UK starts their own negotiations with third party countries inside that transition period, it'll still take years before it materialises into anything, right?

[Pann]

"Membership of EASA is contingent upon accepting the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union, something Britain has ruled out."
presumably that quote makes it completely clear why (currently) the UK will not continue to be a member of EASA after brexit

Did you Google that?

[Pannonian]

I hope you understand that most of us here aren't against the UK or its citizens but the ridiculous garbage some of your politicians present and their devote followers, like in return i would understand you for talking smack about our far-right/right wing coalition and the country that elected such clowns. I do applaude you for banning an austrian far-right lunatic from entering your country, arresting him as he tried nonetheless and sending him back to us.

At this point we're nothing more than the european carecenter for right-wing lunatics -.- At least it brings us closer to Hungary again - so i guess - hurray?

[Slant]

I really have no idea what you're trying to say. Do you think this makes you seem clever?

It would appear to be nothing more than yet another childish attempt to provoke an argument, so I'll leave you to it - have fun!

I was agreeing with you, fool. :P

[Dizzeeyooo]

Did you Google that?

its a direct quote from the article someone linked you earlier and you ignored

also, amusingly:
In addition to the member states of the union, the countries part of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), i.e. Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland, have been granted participation under Article 66 of the Basic Regulation and are members of the Management Board without voting rights
surely you would not be proposing that the UK become a vassal state of the EU regarding air travel legal arrangements?

[Pann]

its a direct quote from the article someone linked you earlier and you ignored

Oh, so you didn't bother to look for yourself? I ignored it as it is not relevant and I had already posted before that article was linked why it was not relevant, ironically the article was posted in response my post which gives the reason why that point is not relevant . If you'd bothered to have read the post or taken a few seconds to look up the subject yourself you would have seen this.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I ignored it as it is not relevant

standard brexit supporting response when confronted with facts, ah well we tried

[Pann]

standard brexit supporting response when confronted with facts, ah well we tried

Which is ironic seeing as you've completely ignored why you are wrong.

I'll give you a little clue - what is the date when the linked article was published and on what date did May make her Florence speech?

Oh, and disagreeing with you is not mark of supporting Brexit but a result of you being wrong and too lazy to read what has been written.

[Mayhem]

I'll give you a little clue - what is the date when the linked article was published

January this year

and on what date did May make her Florence speech?

September last year

and here she is march 2nd this year with regards to EASA:

“Associate membership of these agencies is the only way to meet our objective of ensuring that these products only need to undergo one series of approvals, in one country."

“Second, these agencies have a critical role in setting and enforcing revenant rules. And if we were able to negotiate associate membership we would be able to ensure that we could continue to provide our technical expertise.”

“Third, associate membership could permit UK firms to resolve certain challenges related to the agencies through UK courts rather than the ECJ [European Court of Justice].”

and the EUs response 5 days later:

6)
In this context, the European Council reiterates in particular that any agreement with the
United Kingdom will have to be based on a balance of rights and obligations, and ensure a
level playing field. A non-member of the Union, that does not live up to the same obligations
as a member, cannot have the same rights and enjoy the same benefits as a member.
The European Council recalls that the four freedoms of the Single Market are indivisible and
that there can be no “cherry picking” through participation based on a sector-by-sector
approach, that would undermine the integrity and proper functioning of the Single Market.
The European Council further reiterates that the Union will preserve its autonomy as regards
its decision-making, which excludes participation of the United Kingdom as a third-country to
EU Institutions, agencies or bodies. The role of the Court of Justice of the European Union
will also be fully respected.

https://www.raps.org/news-and-articl...n-council-down

[Slant]

Just think about it... the UK wants to participate in the single market based on presumably EU law (because, otherwise it wouldn't be the single market), but their courts would make their rulings on what... British law? Which court on this planet uses a set of law outside its jurisdiction? Or do they intend to supercede EU law whenever it suits them? Or will their judges need to become experts not just in British law but EU law as well? Who certifies that? British BAR? Or are British judges supposed to go through a certification process within the EU to be allowed to make EU rulings? What's the process for appeals? What about EU standards regardings these rulings? The British legal system is quite incompatible with the rest of the EU. How will they ensure the same set of proceedings to happen in a system that thinks differently?

I'm curious, what the result is supposed to be when you follow this chain of thought to its logical conclusion. It smells nearly as insane as the NI border problem.

[Pann]

January this year



September last year

and here she is march 2nd this year with regards to EASA:

“Associate membership of these agencies is the only way to meet our objective of ensuring that these products only need to undergo one series of approvals, in one country."

“Second, these agencies have a critical role in setting and enforcing revenant rules. And if we were able to negotiate associate membership we would be able to ensure that we could continue to provide our technical expertise.”

“Third, associate membership could permit UK firms to resolve certain challenges related to the agencies through UK courts rather than the ECJ [European Court of Justice].”

and the EUs response 5 days later:

6)
In this context, the European Council reiterates in particular that any agreement with the
United Kingdom will have to be based on a balance of rights and obligations, and ensure a
level playing field. A non-member of the Union, that does not live up to the same obligations
as a member, cannot have the same rights and enjoy the same benefits as a member.
The European Council recalls that the four freedoms of the Single Market are indivisible and
that there can be no “cherry picking” through participation based on a sector-by-sector
approach, that would undermine the integrity and proper functioning of the Single Market.
The European Council further reiterates that the Union will preserve its autonomy as regards
its decision-making, which excludes participation of the United Kingdom as a third-country to
EU Institutions, agencies or bodies. The role of the Court of Justice of the European Union
will also be fully respected.

https://www.raps.org/news-and-articl...n-council-down

Firstly that does not make the point that the UK will have to leave the EASA because it will not accept ECJ oversight relevant or correct.

Leaving aside the respective negotiating stances EASA membership does not require a country to be a member state, as evidenced by 4 non-member states' membership. The link you have posted makes no mention of the EASA and is focused on the EMA.

I would also draw your attention to;

8.i. regarding aviation, the aim should be to ensure connectivity between the UK and the EU after the UK withdrawal. This would require an air transport agreement, combined with an aviation safety agreement, while ensuring a strong level playing field in a highly competitive sector.

8.ii. regarding certain Union programmes, e.g. in the fields of research and innovation and of education and culture, any participation of the UK should be subject to the relevant conditions for the participation of third countries to be established in the corresponding programmes in the next Multiannual Financial Framework.

As you can see from 8.i there is a desire for EU/UK aviation safety agreement and 8.ii states that the UK could join/retain membership certain EU programs on the same terms as other third countries.

Anyway thank you taking the time to look into this and I am sure Dizzeeyoo is grateful for you doing the work for him.

- - - Updated - - -

Just think about it... the UK wants to participate in the single market based on presumably EU law (because, otherwise it wouldn't be the single market), but their courts would make their rulings on what... British law? Which court on this planet uses a set of law outside its jurisdiction? Or do they intend to supercede EU law whenever it suits them? Or will their judges need to become experts not just in British law but EU law as well? Who certifies that? British BAR? Or are British judges supposed to go through a certification process within the EU to be allowed to make EU rulings? What's the process for appeals? What about EU standards regardings these rulings? The British legal system is quite incompatible with the rest of the EU. How will they ensure the same set of proceedings to happen in a system that thinks differently?

I'm curious, what the result is supposed to be when you follow this chain of thought to its logical conclusion. It smells nearly as insane as the NI border problem.

The UK does not want to participate in the single market. How do think the ECJ works now? The ECJ only rules on European Union law it does not rule on matters that specific to member states' laws. Theresa May has acknowledged that the ECJ will continue to the ultimate arbiter of EU law;

"When we leave the EU, the Withdrawal Bill will bring EU law into UK law. That means cases will be determined in our courts. But, where appropriate, our courts will continue to look at the ECJ’s judgments, as they do for the appropriate jurisprudence of other countries’ courts."

she has also proposed a system of binding commitments where both UK and EU would be in line with each other (although what areas this covers and how it will work in practice is yet to be determined);

"And if, as part of our future partnership, Parliament passes an identical law to an EU law, it may make sense for our courts to look at the appropriate ECJ judgments so that we both interpret those laws consistently.

As I said in Munich, if we agree that the UK should continue to participate in an EU agency the UK would have to respect the remit of the ECJ in that regard.

But, in the future, the EU treaties and hence EU law will no longer apply in the UK. The agreement we reach must therefore respect the sovereignty of both the UK and the EU’s legal orders. That means the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK must end. It also means that the ultimate arbiter of disputes about our future partnership cannot be the court of either party.

The next hard fact is this. If we want good access to each other’s markets, it has to be on fair terms. As with any trade agreement, we must accept the need for binding commitments – for example, we may choose to commit some areas of our regulations like state aid and competition to remaining in step with the EU’s"

[Dizzeeyooo]

EASA membership does not require a country to be a member state, as evidenced by 4 non-member states' membership

repeating myself:
In addition to the member states of the union, the countries part of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), i.e. Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland, have been granted participation under Article 66 of the Basic Regulation and are members of the Management Board without voting rights
surely you would not be proposing that the UK become a vassal state of the EU regarding air travel legal arrangements?

Theresa May has acknowledged that the ECJ will continue to the ultimate arbiter of EU law

whatever next, will she acknowledge that the sky will continue to be blue and the grass will continue to be green after Brexit also?

https://news.sky.com/story/govt-to-s...-line-11151049

Sky News also understands the Government is preparing an ultimate backstop with plans for a series of legal letters for exchange with airlines in the hour of Britain's departure from the EU; to reassure the maintenance of legal flying rights in the event of no Brexit deal being agreed.

It marks the acceptance that absent World Trade Organisation rules - and the fact the EU has dismissed the idea of falling back on decades-old bilateral flight agreements with the UK - means that flights stopping is a possible consequence of a failed Brexit negotiation

ah well